Technology Risks to EVM?

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> The ECI disagrees so we have to work with what we got.

Now we reached a platitude

There is still quite a lot to discuss

> And what it got ain't bad.

We shouldn't be settling with half good.

Hah, we got definitely more than half good

> You said something about transparency. Bet you didn't realise it could work in this manner

What you didn't realize yet is that the election side process (it was not even a human mistake, but badly intended crime) didn't work efficiently, judiciary had to be involved which was not at all needed. Otherwise, this issue wouldn't be even wasting valuable time of SC judges.

Is it possible to make a completely fool proof system. Not without great cost. And whether it's even necessary when spotting a problem isn't difficult with existing support systems in place. In this case video.

Most of the time the judiciary isn't involved. It's for those exceptions when parties are determined to cheat that there has to be a remedy. This is not static as we will learn further through the years where improvements are warranted

 

[Neotheone]

@Mods @SunnyBoi please go through this thread and seriously consider if a senior member is unknowingly spamming here despite repeated requests. Probably not out of ill-will, but due to his/her strong opinions. Please clean this thread. If you disagree that it is abuse, then please lock or delete it because it has practically been hijacked as I see it. Apologies to the concerned member, but that is my firm view.

 

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Discussion isnt over and is in the same theme as previous ones going back to 2008

If you recognise that foreign powers might want to interfere then what is the easiest way to go about it.

Erode trust & confidence. Doesn't take much if you can replicate in India the acrimony that followed the US 2020 election

My target isn't to change minds of those that refuse to see. But the silent majority that reads without posting who is on the fence that may have doubts because they heard this or that but never followed through to the conclusions of these disputes

I used to be one of those people and I never found a discussion that specifically addressed these concerns. It was always this or that is wrong but never about whether things actually worked

 

[TEUser2K1]

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> Erode trust & confidence.

Do the best to earn trust and confidence, more transparency and audit is the right way to handle that than stonewalling and denial.

Discussions here on this topic are not going to make any real world impact, rather understanding of other's opinions and trivia sharing between te members, that is the way I see it. So, I felt this okayish.

 

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> Erode trust & confidence.

Do the best to earn trust and confidence, more transparency and audit is the right way to handle that than stonewalling and denial.

That is what I'm trying to to show here. That the government is doing its best to renew trust & confidence and this has to be a continual process.

Stonewalling and denial when accusations are unwarranted is acceptable. You can't have absolutist positions here. There has to be give and take.

I think it's the height of arrogance to presume to tell the ECI how to do their job when they've been at it successfully for decades now. They deal with challenges on a regular basis. They know that the slightest doubts can affect trust nationwide. Which is easy to lose but very difficult to earn and maintain. And in an era of social media this problem only accelerates the number of doubters

Discussions here on this topic are not going to make any real world impact, rather understanding of other's opinions and trivia sharing between te members, that is the way I see it. So, I felt this okayish.

Of course they will have an impact. If people see at the end valid grievances are being addressed.

That headline grabbing reports have been debunked. Six years it took for that 'apprehensions over 19 lakh missing EVM's' case. Fortunately SC ruled on it just a month back so it could be disposed off.

 

[kiran6680]

Yes, not much left to do until further developments. People willing and capable of understanding have understood. Liars have been called out with evidence.

 

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Doubts created around EVM

All the tech angles examined and debunked

To date no evidence of any evm tampering has ever been produced

This isn't enough. Have to look at cases to see if any wrong doing occurred and only reported incidents detailing remedies can do that.

This article has a summary of legal challenges over the last decade to the use of EVM's. Latest of which was disposed off on Apr 26

Despite 8 Rounds Of Scrutiny By Sc, Evms Emerge Trustworthy | Delhi News - Times of India

NEW DELHI: EVMs have emerged trustworthy despite eight rounds of scrutiny by Supreme Court in the last decade as doubting Thomases have failed to prov.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

 

[TEUser2K1]

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> Stonewalling and denial when accusations are unwarranted is acceptable.

There are no accusations, there are request for probe and clarity. Huge amount of machines were found with issues, they were used earlier. Now after few months or years, problems with current set of machines will come out. Then same song will be sung, rinse and repeat.
Why not take appropriate actions prior, than behave like ostriches.

Process ?

Supreme Court Rejects Pleas Seeking 100% EVM-VVPAT Cross Verification, Issues Directions To Seal Symbol Loading Unit

In a significant development, the Supreme Court today rejected the

www.livelaw.in

Snags ?

EVM Snags disrupt polling in pockets in Chennai | Chennai News - Times of India

Technical snags and EVM malfunctions led to delays and frustrations during recent polling. Issues included delays at Kandasamy Naidu College, Nainiapp

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Dismissal ?

Human error can occur in EVM-VVPAT system: Supreme Court

Supreme Court acknowledges human errors in EVM-VVPAT system, cites only one discrepancy in 2019 Lok Sabha elections.

www.thehindu.com

Confusions ?

Ex-bureaucrat asks EC to ensure party-affiliated persons removed from board of BEL which manufacture EVM

New Delhi, Jan 30 (PTI) A former bureaucrat has raised concern with the Election Commission on the nomination of at least four persons allegedly having affiliation with the BJP as independent directors on the board of state-run BEL that manufactures EVMs, prompting opposition leaders to attack...

www.deccanherald.com

Everybody understand this is convenient for now, but for the sake of future, far better actions needs to be done.

For that transparency is required, it is eerily awkward when powers say 'no, no openness' and you blame the party requesting transparency as the ones stonewalling. Classic tactic of winners gaslighting common man and abusing power.

 

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For that transparency is required, it is eerily awkward when powers say 'no, no openness' and you blame the party requesting transparency as the ones stonewalling. Classic tactic of winners gaslighting common man and abusing power.

https://www.eci.gov.in/evm-faqs

Search for the word 'transparency' in there. There are 5 Q's that address it.

Now is your transparency point addressed adequately or not and if not why?

On the SC ruling on Apr 26, one of the judges had a quality quote

Blind distrust of an institution or system leads to unwarranted scepticism and impedes progress

So is your distrust blind or warranted?

Will deal with your links later when I get time

 

[TEUser2K1]

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> Search for the word 'transparency' in there.

hahaha, you are good at jokes.

Let me check in the Boeing's management safety policy guide lines about how strictly they follow safety procedures in real-world.

Everything is perfect in books man, in the books. But in realworld, see what SC is 'opinionating' and then denying. Nothing to see here, move along citizen.

> So is your distrust blind or warranted?

The 'you' and 'me' are immaterial here.

Is distrust warranted, Yes.
Because, trust but verify must be the policy when affairs of polity, states, etc. are concerned.

 

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> Search for the word 'transparency' in there.

hahaha, you are good at jokes.

No, it was no joke. There were five questions about transparency asked from different angles by the public which they have chosen to respond to

And you refused to consider their replies. Why not. If at all you are serious and your concern is genuine.

Ball is still in your court

> So is your distrust blind or warranted?

Is distrust warranted, Yes.
Because, trust but verify must be the policy when affairs of polity, states, etc. are concerned.

Trust but verify is the policy already to the extent possible with procedures. In fact there is a question about that too. At no point in the chain is only trust relied on. Can't link to answers so you will have to look at the faq page

Blind? You don't answer

That is exactly what is going on and will continue

120 questions answered in that list

 

[TEUser2K1]

Cannot physically touch the machine, cannot open the s/w / h/w of such a critical system is called stonewalling, just like how they say data is securely kept under steel vaults.
Many of your responses are just deflections, anybody will understand those kind of sentences does not even need a clarification.
It is like reading a religious book, no body can question because questioning will be blasphemy. It does not happen because the high priest says so ! The the questions will automatically be discredited because it does not suit your narrative.

 

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Remember reading somewhere that alleging (baseless?) complaints against EVMs is illegal / offense.

Correct because otherwise there will be endless bogus complaints with the intention to disrupt the election

Rule 49MA of the Conduct of Election Rules - Drishti IAS

The Election Commission (EC) of India may revisit a rule that provides for prosecution of an elector if a complaint regarding malfunctioning of the EVM or VVPAT machine turns out to be false.

www.drishtiias.com

The SC upheld this provision in their Apr 26 ruling so it's in force. Meaning SC does not see it as unconstitional or violating freedom of speech as petitioner charged

So, I fully 'trust' EVMs.

You're not disrupting anything saying so here. You can say whatever the hell you want. But it helps if it's legit if you expect to be taken seriously

Only if you lodge an official complaint and it turns out to be false then you could be liable. It's not hard and fast though if you can show no malafide intent. YMMV.

Cannot physically touch the machine, cannot open the s/w / h/w of such a critical system is called stonewalling, just like how they say data is securely kept under steel vaults.
Many of your responses are just deflections, anybody will understand those kind of sentences does not even need a clarification.
It is like reading a religious book, no body can question because questioning will be blasphemy. It does not happen because the high priest says so ! The the questions will automatically be discredited because it does not suit your narrative.

Someone already petioned for source code audit but the SC dismissed it

No suitable material before this court, at this stage, to indicate that the ECI is not taking suitable steps to fulfill its mandate

Want an audit? File your own petition and do a better job than this Sunil Ahya. Come up with an actionable reason that shows ECI is in breach

Can't just point finger and say someone is doing wrong. You have to SHOW where and why they are doing wrong.

People will have opinion and discussion anyway. Tomorrow everyone will ask please tel us security plan of our country so that we can trust that we are safe.

Exactly

 

[TEUser2K1]

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> Correct because otherwise there will be endless bogus complaints with the intention to disrupt the election
Can be abused to include valid concerns too, you are very fluent in USA's ways of openness, when matters regarding India is concerned, suddenly you turns blindsided

> The SC upheld this provision in their Apr 26 ruling so it's in force.
It's obviously a two way sword. Silencing one person can silence most.

> You're not disrupting anything saying so here.
As mentioned earlier, these is no real world value in discussion in this forum than killing time.
You are commenting as if your comment is going to change India.

> Someone already petioned for source code audit but the SC dismissed it
LOLz.

> Can't just point finger and say someone is doing wrong.

You Can !, tons of concerns were raised, buy vested interests said it doesn't matter:

Now, only tool (paper) changed (to evm), people didn't change much, so process need refining.

Human error can occur in EVM-VVPAT system: Supreme Court

Supreme Court acknowledges human errors in EVM-VVPAT system, cites only one discrepancy in 2019 Lok Sabha elections.

www.thehindu.com

Process ?

Supreme Court Rejects Pleas Seeking 100% EVM-VVPAT Cross Verification, Issues Directions To Seal Symbol Loading Unit

In a significant development, the Supreme Court today rejected the

www.livelaw.in

Snags ?

EVM Snags disrupt polling in pockets in Chennai | Chennai News - Times of India

Technical snags and EVM malfunctions led to delays and frustrations during recent polling. Issues included delays at Kandasamy Naidu College, Nainiapp

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Confusions ?

https://www.deccanherald.com/india/...-board-of-bel-which-manufacture-evm-2871211[/

 

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Read the judgement starting from clause 17 which gets into a lot of technical details. I'm amazed they took the trouble to get into it.

The judgement is an excellent answer to doubters.

You are commenting as if your comment is going to change India.

It's providing sources and ammo to counter doubters. Have been doing it since 2008

All official sources with the weight of a government to back them. Can't do better than that really

Someone already petioned for source code audit but the SC dismissed it
LOLz.

You're not serious just sloganeering. Until you read and then challenge that is, where you remain

We can dispose off your transparency/source code issue

Four for four

> The SC upheld this provision in their Apr 26 ruling so it's in force.
It's obviously a two way sword. Silencing one person can silence most.

Not true

26 cases. Not one valid complaint. The court is right to uphold 49MA. Otherwise the number would have run into several hundred. Causing unnecessary FUD at the cost of the tax payer.

My turn to lol if you think it's possible to silence Indians from saying anything

Nine times out of ten the motive to claim miscount is attention seeking. Publicity is expensive. As a candidate if you can co-opt the media to do it on your behalf nothing like it. This rule acts as a sufficient deterrent to such mischief.

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> Correct because otherwise there will be endless bogus complaints with the intention to disrupt the election
Can be abused to include valid concerns too, you are very fluent in USA's ways of openness, when matters regarding India is concerned, suddenly you turns blindsided

See above. We have different concerns in India and what works best n the US might not be applicable here no matter how much I would like it to be. So it's not a question of being blindsided but working with the constraints of reality. It's easy to be idealist but if there is no scope to realise those ideas then what is the point. Many times I've argued why things couldn't be like how they are in the US and disagree that we could not have it like that here.

But on this subject of voting, does the US really have a system to envy given their recent record?

I'd contend not. In fact I'd be wary of people slamming our system coming from countries that never tried EVM's or have limited experience or failed at it. We have experience of both types and EVM's are demonstrably superior. I find disingenuous people saying paper is better when that's the only system they are familiar with.

 

[TEUser2K1]

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> The judgement is an excellent answer to doubters.

Blasphemy alert, read ahead only if one don't want their supreme legal books emotions not to be hurt, if hurt that is not my liability: Whatever you read ahead is not anyway related to reality, but just fictional writing alone and if any relation to reality, that is your imagination and misunderstanding:

Some prole complaints that a machine is not working up to the mark. Legals bring a different but finely working machine and say the working machine is working okay, which obviously will work fine when tested. They blame the complainant since working machine works fine and charges him / her blaming him of lying, thought crime, etc. Once a precedent is set, every prole says that the machine is the bestest machine evar available in the entire worrld. All supreme leaders, their rule keeper cogs in the wheel and the entire system mocks the complainant and the story ends happily.

> You're not serious just sloganeering. Until you read and then challenge that is, where you remain

Yep, that is the point. Court jesters and their jokes were immune from time immemorial unless supreme powers get too irritated. Prole trying best to take due care not to get body paint abrasions. Like everybody else, prole like morning walks.

> We can dispose off your transparency/source code issue

No prole worth his salt will allow that with his conscience. But will clap and agree in-front of the terminal.

> It's easy to be idealist but if there is no scope to realise those ideas then what is the point. Many times I've argued why things couldn't be like how they are in the US and disagree that we could not have it like that here.

Most of your arguments are like this, you know what is moral and immoral, but you just swim with the flow, just a fair weather bird incapable of calling a spade a spade. From the beginning, irrespective of politics your comments had the same spirit and theme, before 2014 and after 2014. Nobody have to put an iota of mental effort for that, but only have to be agreeable.

Here, this commentator sometimes prefer to call a spade a spade. Otherwise, where the fun the debates if everything looks the same.

 

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Some prole complaints that a machine is not working up to the mark. Legals bring a different but finely working machine and say the working machine is working okay, which obviously works fine. They blame the complainant since working machine works fine and charges him / her blaming him of lying, thought crime, etc. Once a precedent is set, every prole says that the machine is the bestest machine evar available in the entire worrld. All supreme leaders, their rule keeper cogs in the wheel and the entire system mocks the complainant and the story ends happily.

Won't happen. Machine is tested to be free of defects and then a mock poll is conducted. The first ensures votes can be cast and the latter that counting is accurate.

40 million vvpat slips tallied with electronic counts. Perfectly. That is a more than adequate statistically valid sample for accuracy. Before this judgement it was one booth per constituency. The SC increased it to 5 to allay concerns and produce a feasible remedy.

In 100 cases recounts were allowed and it was found vvpat matched electronic count in ALL of them. These recounts were not asked by the public but by candidates from what I understand.

> We can dispose off your transparency/source code issue

No prole worth his salt will allow that for his consience. but will clap and agree infront of terminal.

If you won't cooperate the matter ends there.

> It's easy to be idealist but if there is no scope to realise those ideas then what is the point. Many times I've argued why things couldn't be like how they are in the US and disagree that we could not have it like that here.

Most of your arguments are like this, you know what is moral and immoral, but you just swim with the flow, just a fair weather bird incapable of calling a spade a spade. From the beginning, irrespective of politics your comments had the same spirit and theme, before 2014 and after 2014. Nobody have to put an iota of mental effort for that, but only have to be agreeable.

Here, sometimes, prefer to call a spade a spade.

Who makes policy, laws and history? I'm interested in understanding that. That is why I'm pro government and not just with this country. That's why you found me pro US.

This model has worked well for me especially when you go up against former practitioners be they military, diplomat or bureaucrat. Not just them but ordinary citizens even. I've been on a def board for over ten years where such discussions are the main course not side dish like here.

You want to play crusader go file your petitions. Challenge the system. Who's stopping you?

Course you are a bit late to the game because we have had eight failed rounds of petitions asking to dump EVM's in favour of paper. The longer this continues the stronger the state's position becomes as they have a history of previous judgments to refer to.


I have a hard enough time just understandinng what is happening before being able to judge more

And no I have no problem calling a spade a spade but you better have good arguments and that is hard

 

[TEUser2K1]

> Course you are a bit late to the game because we have had eight failed rounds of petitions asking to dump EVM's in favour of paper.

First of all, have clarified multiple times that am pro EVM which is tons more efficient method than paper based ballot. Don't know why to bring this again and again in discussions ? Are you try to force the idea of paper ballet on te id: teuser2k1, lol ? Or is it that I am misunderstanding.

> Machine is tested to be free of defects and then a mock poll is conducted.
If not mistaken, testing is conducted on a random machine. Considering tons of machines reported as damaged, testing a random machine (or control unit which might be already pre-tested?) is not enough, add the inefficiency of people involved.

> The vvpat slip count matched with the electronic count recorded in control unit in all cases.
'Control unit' is the point I mentioned earlier.

> If you won't cooperate the matter ends there.
When it is a superior power with every powertool available is colluding against an average man, nobody stands a chance. It's well obvious in the sentence.

> Who makes policy, laws and history? I'm interested in understanding that. That is why I'm pro government and not just with this country. That's why you found me pro US.

Everybody is pro-their country, not govt. That is why govts. changes every now and then and should be.
I didn't find comments pro-US, rather found pro-ruling system anywhere. Thus incapable of criticizing.

> This model has worked well for me especially when you go up against former practitioners be they military, diplomat or bureaucrat.
Fully understood that side, well earlier. Fairweather freind word was used for that, sorry not characterizing as individual, but just comments involved.

> And no I have no problem calling a spade a spade but you better have good arguments and that is hard
You can't because of your own clearly stated reasons above.