BJP can do course correction.. Here it is..


blr_p

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Modi is a man on a mission who realises his place in history. Incremental change as implemented by PM's of the past will not do


The only idea i have a quibble with is one country, one govt. Short of moving away from a parliamentary style of functioning i see no way to synchronise elections across the country. Unless he does a reset but the effects of that would be temporary. Think back to the first election in '52. Things were in sync for about 20 years and then went out by the 70s and remained that way. Govts can fall at any time any where. This is not a bug, it's a feature.

Rishabh has been doing excellent work with his Magna indica series. Amazed at the energy this guy has. Arnab does not even come close.

Strange thing when i watch some of the discussions on newsx is these govt reps on each show. I'm not used to seeing govt spokespeople on discussion shows on RSTV & LSTV. Mostly redundant as far as the discussion goes but its a regular fixture on private tv. The shows on the private channels are more debate like where with opposing factions.
 
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pauldmps

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blr_p

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And the source for the image on Press Freedom Index was from Wikipedia.
See my post from over a year back

I will now add to that post. See what confused me about that graphic was which way the years went

India press freedom.jpg
Now that we have a spread there are some strange jumps in there.
'02 - '03 goes from 80 to 128
'06 - '07 jumps to 120 from 105
'08 - '09 - '10 drops to 105 from 118 only to jump to 122 the year after

But the point to make is look at the rank in 2014 it's 140. And in 2019 on 140 too.

It improved slightly in the intervening years but it has not got worse as the rank is the same

I can't figure out what the second number below means ?

Note how when you click the graphic it takes you to the source.

The rank has consistently gone down in NDA era. Rankings below 2019 - 2009 - left to right. See the bump to 140? That's 2013.

View attachment 82575

This is typical Bhakt logic.
If Modi govt does something good - What did Congress do?
If Modi govt does something bad - But Congress also did the same.
Now that we know how the years go, its clear the rank has not gone down, if anything it slightly improved but subsequently fell back to the 2014 position.

Look at UPA. Started 2004 at 120 and by the time they left it was 140. So it went down in the UPA era. Yes ?

Now the question is why are these figures so low. It's due to violence against journalists.

And get this, that violence against journalists has absolutely nothing to do with the govt of either regime. Hence free press.

If the govt does not lock you up when you upset them then it means you have a free press. If they do then you don't have a free press.

The people otoh are different. Saying anything that pisses people off gets you whacked ie Gauri Lankesh.

Were the perps brought to justice ? no. And she is just one example.

If the state can't protect its scribes you get a low rank.
Post automatically merged:

Modi's next big plan is to make this country a Hindu nation while the economy goes to shit.
I got into a discussion about this recently.

Apparently the diaspora that prefer BJP are pro democrat in the US and pro Labour party in the UK.

You see anything wrong with that ? i definitely would not be voting for those parties abroad.

But i was told the default position for Hindus is Liberal. Since Labour & Democrats are more liberal......that is the preference...Go figure :wideyed:

The reason i'm not saying much about economy is because i voted for what i thought was a right wing party but it turns out their ideas about economy are no different to the one they replaced and at times worse. The withering criticism among BJP supporters on the subject of BJP & economy is very scathing. Huge frustration. They keep it quiet out of fear for their brands.
 
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pauldmps

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See my post from over a year back

I will now add to that post. See what confused me about that graphic was which way the years went

View attachment 82735
Now that we have a spread there are some strange jumps in there.
'02 - '03 goes from 80 to 128
'06 - '07 jumps to 120 from 105
'08 - '09 - '10 drops to 105 from 118 only to jump to 122 the year after

But the point to make is look at the rank in 2014 it's 140. And in 2019 on 140 too.

It improved slightly in the intervening years but it has not got worse as the rank is the same

I can't figure out what the second number below means ?

Note how when you click the graphic it takes you to the source.


Now that we know how the years go, its clear the rank has not gone down, if anything it slightly improved but subsequently fell back to the 2014 position.

Look at UPA. Started 2004 at 120 and by the time they left it was 140. So it went down in the UPA era. Yes ?

Now the question is why are these figures so low. It's due to violence against journalists.

And get this, that violence against journalists has absolutely nothing to do with the govt of either regime. Hence free press.

If the govt does not lock you up when you upset them then it means you have a free press. If they do then you don't have a free press.

The people otoh are different. Saying anything that pisses people off gets you whacked ie Gauri Lankesh.

Were the perps brought to justice ? no. And she is just one example.

If the state can't protect its scribes you get a low rank.
It's less to do with actual killing of journalists and more with gag orders issued by the govt.
I remember the quote by Ravish Kumar about the difference between media gag orders issued by the UPA govt and the NDA govt. He said 'Earlier (UPA era) gag orders were issued regarding certain issues which media should not speak about. Now its simply that you are not allowed to criticise any part or person of the govt.'

Modi did a live video conference with some farmers where the farmers claimed that their earnings have doubled. ABPs Abhisar Sharma went to the same village and interviewed the same farmers who confessed that they were asked by BJP people to say the figures on camera and that their income has not changed. Abhisar Sharma was promptly fired from ABP News the next day.

And remember that there were people issuing death threats to Ravish Kumar on video, who were and are still followed by Modi's twitter account.

There is a blanket ban on what media can talk about or not. The statistics makes it clear, if you watch the Primetime debate statistics of major media outlets (except, NDTV) for the 30 days, there were 15-20 debates were attacking Pakistan, 5-10 debates praising Modi/Shah, 2-3 debates on PMC crisis (thank god for that), 0 debates on economy/unemployment/all other issues. The Modia possibly gives more screen time to Pakistan than even Pakistani media. they are legitimising an illegitimate country with free airtime.

If you justify that pissing a group of people should result in murder then do you justify the murder of Hindu Mahasabha leader is UP?

I got into a discussion about this recently.

Apparently the diaspora that prefer BJP are pro democrat in the US and pro Labour party in the UK.

You see anything wrong with that ? i definitely would not be voting for those parties abroad.

But i was told the default position for Hindus is Liberal. Since Labour & Democrats are more liberal......that is the preference...Go figure :wideyed:

The reason i'm not saying much about economy is because i voted for what i thought was a right wing party but it turns out their ideas about economy are no different to the one they replaced and at times worse. The withering criticism among BJP supporters on the subject of BJP & economy is very scathing. Huge frustration. They keep it quiet out of fear for their brands.
Do we really need to discuss the double standards of the NRIs? They reap the benefits of a liberal economy while praising the right wing. How many of them will be willing to come back and settle in India since its now a great nation under Modi? I would like to see these NRIs settle in Modi's constituency - Varanasi. Now that Ganga water is crystal clear, they can now bath and drink the water of the holy river.

Its true that the rot in our economy started in the UPA era post 2010 but UPA also dragged us unscathed out of the 2008 global financial crisis. It was UPA era when the banks started piling up NPAs. But it was NDA, that did nothing to stop it. It was in UPA era that Mallya got huge loans but it was NDA that let him flee by diluting the CBI lookout notice. It was UPA era when Nirav Modi milked PNB, but it was NDA era when he was successful in fleeing the country despite multiple whistleblower complaints to the RBI & PMO.



Meanwhile in J&K, an election is being held with all opposition in lockup. And also this:
https://thewire.in/government/jk-administration-winds-up-seven-state-commissions

The Haryana & MH results should be a warning bell for the BJP. You can only be nationalist till you can serve food on your table.
 

blr_p

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It's less to do with actual killing of journalists and more with gag orders issued by the govt.
That is how it is explained in the reports whose rank you have used. Violence against journalists is the reason India gets a low score. They don't distinguish the source of that violence. If it happens you get a low score. It means there is an atmosphere of fear. I make the distinction more clear by specifying what the source is. I would not be looking at some league table and coming to conclusions without understanding further what the basis for those ranks are.

I remember the quote by Ravish Kumar about the difference between media gag orders issued by the UPA govt and the NDA govt. He said 'Earlier (UPA era) gag orders were issued regarding certain issues which media should not speak about. Now its simply that you are not allowed to criticise any part or person of the govt.'
What issues ? can he substantiate under what circumstances those gag orders were issued ? hard to take him seriously otherwise.

The media talks crap most of the time. If a gag order was issued it means a line was crossed and a warning issued. So i do not make the straight conclusion you do.

Modi did a live video conference with some farmers where the farmers claimed that their earnings have doubled. ABPs Abhisar Sharma went to the same village and interviewed the same farmers who confessed that they were asked by BJP people to say the figures on camera and that their income has not changed. Abhisar Sharma was promptly fired from ABP News the next day.
This is a he said she said type situation. Why do you assume he is telling the truth and does not have any partisan agenda ? when i see the nonsense posted by WAPO, WSJ, NYT & BBC on the subject of Kashmir why should i not be sceptical ? Are these not credible sources. Media freedom means you can say any nonsense and there is no liability for these orgs since they are based abroad. But when their own govt goes on a foreign adventure they all pretty much fall in line.

Can't say the same thing about India. The Balakote strike was a case in point right on this board. A glaring example in fact of the sort of nonsense the opposition will put out to make the govt look bad. It got to the point where one could not tell whether the Paks were giving the opposition their talking points or the other way around.

The coming of Trump has made me respect Indian media more. Every cable news channel in the US can be considered the equivalent of NDTV. They will be bashing Trump on something or the other. CNN should be considered hostile media. Its better to follow Russian media than CNN on the subject of Trump. Why is CNN so hostile because they took it upon on themselves to be what Fox was to Obama. Funny how there is no Fox tie up with India. I think its because they have nothing to offer here. Our media does a better job than Fox ever could. I'll take Rishabh over Bill O'Reilly or Tucker Carlson any day.

Now if in India you have the same media circus they have in the US i'm sure you get a better rank for press freedom. Some people would demand this be the case.

Btw he was not fired. He resigned and he was reporting on some stray shooting, not farmers..Whether that is the full reason or whether there was past transgressions that added up isn't mentioned.

The trigger seems to be mentioning the PM's name in relation to this stray incident. Punya Bajpai might be a better example of muzzling. Here the frustrating thing is the people who quit never give the full reason but make some cryptic statement which i consider suspicious right off the bat.

How Barkha can't get any work is a popular example that gets mentioned as to how restrictive this govt is about media. Well Nalapat could not get any writing assignments during the UPA era either. So it seems when the govt changes certain groups of people find themselves out of work. Why ? too partisan.

And remember that there were people issuing death threats to Ravish Kumar on video, who were and are still followed by Modi's twitter account.
He is well within his rights to report every one of them and the govt has to act on it. Otherwise twitter will and given the protests i see among right wingers, i'd say twitter goes over board in censoring what people say. Techies are liberal. Silicon valley is liberal. So the deck is stacked against right wingers in digital space for now.

There is a blanket ban on what media can talk about or not. The statistics makes it clear, if you watch the Primetime debate statistics of major media outlets (except, NDTV) for the 30 days, there were 15-20 debates were attacking Pakistan, 5-10 debates praising Modi/Shah, 2-3 debates on PMC crisis (thank god for that), 0 debates on economy/unemployment/all other issues. The Modia possibly gives more screen time to Pakistan than even Pakistani media. they are legitimising an illegitimate country with free airtime.
What is the source for these statistics ? where do you get these figures from.

Do keep in mind media outlets are here to push product. TRP's are king. Views, views and more views. It turns out infotainment is a big draw. Wrestling matches dressed up as news. That you can listen to a bunch of people yap about something and recollect precious little a full hour later makes me picky about which shows to watch.


Do we really need to discuss the double standards of the NRIs? They reap the benefits of a liberal economy while praising the right wing. How many of them will be willing to come back and settle in India since its now a great nation under Modi? I would like to see these NRIs settle in Modi's constituency - Varanasi. Now that Ganga water is crystal clear, they can now bath and drink the water of the holy river.
The value of the diaspora to India isn't whether they will return but how effectively they can push our agenda in the country they reside in. This was the purpose of Modi courting them. The model to emulate is the jewish lobby. How they convince the US to act in matters that clearly benefit Israel but are perceived by the Americans as in their interest as well. So the Indians in the US need to be able to do that for us. Houston was a good show. They can take it to the next level.

Look at Canada, why aren't normal Punjabis running for office ? Instead we end up with these Khalistani sympathisers. No less than the Candian defense minister got slammed by Amarinder for being a supporter. Trudeau on his visit here had to begin his speeches by clarifying Canada was not seeking the break up of India. That is a failure of the Indian lobby in Canada. Canada btw remains Modi's lowest draw. He got only 10k people attending his rally there.

Same goes for the UK. Modi's highest draw is Wembley. Close to 60k. Why have the Paks suceeded colonising the Labour Party and now that party is pushing the Pak agenda. It beggars belief that should Labour come to office whether they will choose a bankrupt state over India.

Its true that the rot in our economy started in the UPA era post 2010 but UPA also dragged us unscathed out of the 2008 global financial crisis. It was UPA era when the banks started piling up NPAs. But it was NDA, that did nothing to stop it. It was in UPA era that Mallya got huge loans but it was NDA that let him flee by diluting the CBI lookout notice. It was UPA era when Nirav Modi milked PNB, but it was NDA era when he was successful in fleeing the country despite multiple whistleblower complaints to the RBI & PMO.
I have commented earlier as to the reason why those loans were made and with active encouragement of the govt. I don't blame the UPA govt for that though. They kicked the can down the road and it seems like this govt is doing the same as well.


Meanwhile in J&K, an election is being held with all opposition in lockup. And also this:
https://thewire.in/government/jk-administration-winds-up-seven-state-commissions
They will be released sequentially. They still have an incredible ability to cause unrest there. The govt has a plan to minimise loss of life. We will see how well it works.

The Haryana & MH results should be a warning bell for the BJP. You can only be nationalist till you can serve food on your table.
Goes without saying
 

chiron

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Look at Canada, why aren't normal Punjabis running for office ? Instead we end up with these Khalistani sympathisers. No less than the Candian defense minister got slammed by Amarinder for being a supporter. Trudeau on his visit here had to begin his speeches by clarifying Canada was not seeking the break up of India. That is a failure of the Indian lobby in Canada. Canada btw remains Modi's lowest draw. He got only 10k people attending his rally there.
During demonetization nobody in Canada had any way to exchange any Indian currency. I wonder if that had anything to do with that. If you are calling Jagmeet Singh a khalistani sympathiser then I definitely prefer them to the sanghi monkeys.

Seems like BJP just got its ass kicked in unprecedented fashion in Kerala including the genius running on the Sabarimala issue.
 

blr_p

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During demonetization nobody in Canada had any way to exchange any Indian currency. I wonder if that had anything to do with that. If you are calling Jagmeet Singh a khalistani sympathiser then I definitely prefer them to the sanghi monkeys.
Listen to Joyeeta. She doesn't mince her words.


Why are you siding with people creating problems for India. Don't you think India - Canada trade could be higher than the measly $10bn right now. Don't you want to see that grow.

We settled this back in 80s at high cost and you support people who want to open it up again ?

These people side with the Paks on Kashmir as well.

Seems like BJP just got its ass kicked in unprecedented fashion in Kerala including the genius running on the Sabarimala issue.
Didn't i tell you that this was a commie communal hitjob on the hindus ? So you support communalism as well. How wonderful!
 

ssslayer

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Wow, reading some of the posts here, never knew that NDA and UPA party workers log in to Techenclave for their respective "prachaars".
 

blr_p

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Wow, reading some of the posts here, never knew that NDA and UPA party workers log in to Techenclave for their respective "prachaars".
If you want to talk about the govt should you not understand what the govt is doing first ? if you then want to criticise them i can't see much standing without doing that first.

If you do understand what the govt is doing because you keep yourself informed then it means you work for the govt ? Ignorance is better than being informed by this logic.

This is the reason i see complete nonsense being posted on this subject. I'm trying to change that and encourage the like minded to pitch in.

As i rule i don't care what the opposition says in this country or another because they don't make policy.

I see a lot of vids trying to simplify what policy means. Because that is not so obvious to start with.

Some times its not clear whether they even have a policy or the slightest clue about what they are doing.
 

pauldmps

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That is how it is explained in the reports whose rank you have used. Violence against journalists is the reason India gets a low score. They don't distinguish the source of that violence. If it happens you get a low score. It means there is an atmosphere of fear. I make the distinction more clear by specifying what the source is. I would not be looking at some league table and coming to conclusions without understanding further what the basis for those ranks are.
As per Wikipedia:
The report is partly based on a questionnaire[3] which asks questions about pluralism[clarification needed], media independence, environment and self-censorship, legislative framework, transparency, and infrastructure. The questionnaire takes account of the legal framework for the media (including penalties for press offences, the existence of a state monopoly for certain kinds of media and how the media are regulated) and the level of independence of the public media. It also includes violations of the free flow of information on the Internet. Violence against journalists, netizens, and media assistants, including abuses attributable to the state, armed militias, clandestine organisations or pressure groups, are monitored by RSF staff during the year and are also part of the final score.
Violence is one of the factors and not the only factor. I can see many oppressive nations who have a better ranking than ours including Burkina Faso & Ghana. We did not have many violence against journalists compared to may nations of the world. Still we are at 140.

What issues ? can he substantiate under what circumstances those gag orders were issued ? hard to take him seriously otherwise.
Yes, Ravish is hard to be taken seriously since he does not talk about GPS chips in currency notes and Modi's dietary habits.

The media talks crap most of the time. If a gag order was issued it means a line was crossed and a warning issued. So i do not make the straight conclusion you do.
Apart from spreading fake news, what other things do you consider crap? What category will you put Aaj Tak's"Janam bhoomi hamari, Ram hamare, Masjid waale kaha se padhare" in? Was there any warning issued in this case?

This is a he said she said type situation. Why do you assume he is telling the truth and does not have any partisan agenda ? when i see the nonsense posted by WAPO, WSJ, NYT & BBC on the subject of Kashmir why should i not be sceptical ? Are these not credible sources. Media freedom means you can say any nonsense and there is no liability for these orgs since they are based abroad. But when their own govt goes on a foreign adventure they all pretty much fall in line.
So any media outlet speaking against the Modi govt has a partisan agenda? Is it wrong to fact check claims made by politicians? Are you aware that just few days after this event, a BJP worker asked a 'difficult' question to Modi in Pondicherry, since the questions in BJP internal meet were not scripted? Not only he deflected the question by saying 'Chalo Puducherry ko wannakam' but also promptly ordered to add filter questions in his own party meetings.

Can't say the same thing about India. The Balakote strike was a case in point right on this board. A glaring example in fact of the sort of nonsense the opposition will put out to make the govt look bad. It got to the point where one could not tell whether the Paks were giving the opposition their talking points or the other way around.
Not only the opposition parties, every citizen in India has the right to ask for proof for any claims made by the govt. Having a strong opposition questioning the actions of our govt does not make it look bad.

The coming of Trump has made me respect Indian media more. Every cable news channel in the US can be considered the equivalent of NDTV. They will be bashing Trump on something or the other. CNN should be considered hostile media. Its better to follow Russian media than CNN on the subject of Trump. Why is CNN so hostile because they took it upon on themselves to be what Fox was to Obama. Funny how there is no Fox tie up with India. I think its because they have nothing to offer here. Our media does a better job than Fox ever could. I'll take Rishabh over Bill O'Reilly or Tucker Carlson any day.

Now if in India you have the same media circus they have in the US i'm sure you get a better rank for press freedom. Some people would demand this be the case.
Not only mainstream media houses in the US (except Fox, Brietbart etc.), but almost every citizen is allowed to freely criticise the govt and Trump in USA. Have you seen how crude the jokes are on him whether be it Seth Meyers or Trevor Noah or even the SNL? Trump yesterday got booed by a whole stadium with chants of 'Lock him up' at a basketball game. Nobody in India has the balls to do that not even our media.

And the irony is that even Fox News sometimes criticises Trump, when things get serious. Fox & friends anchors were up in arms when Trump pulled out of Syria.

Btw he was not fired. He resigned and he was reporting on some stray shooting, not farmers..Whether that is the full reason or whether there was past transgressions that added up isn't mentioned.

The trigger seems to be mentioning the PM's name in relation to this stray incident. Punya Bajpai might be a better example of muzzling. Here the frustrating thing is the people who quit never give the full reason but make some cryptic statement which i consider suspicious right off the bat.

How Barkha can't get any work is a popular example that gets mentioned as to how restrictive this govt is about media. Well Nalapat could not get any writing assignments during the UPA era either. So it seems when the govt changes certain groups of people find themselves out of work. Why ? too partisan.
Yeah. Just like 4200 employees of my company (HSBC), resigned on the same day last month.

He is well within his rights to report every one of them and the govt has to act on it. Otherwise twitter will and given the protests i see among right wingers, i'd say twitter goes over board in censoring what people say. Techies are liberal. Silicon valley is liberal. So the deck is stacked against right wingers in digital space for now.
Yet those accounts that issued death treats on video are still active. Zuckerberg announced that he will allow politicians lie on its platform. BJP has in the last few years got an insane amount of donations (through the anonymous electoral bonds that they created), which is more than all other parties combined. The are using it to power a huge group of unemployed youths to spread misinformation and communal hatred on the social media.

What is the source for these statistics ? where do you get these figures from.

Do keep in mind media outlets are here to push product. TRP's are king. Views, views and more views. It turns out infotainment is a big draw. Wrestling matches dressed up as news. That you can listen to a bunch of people yap about something and recollect precious little a full hour later makes me picky about which shows to watch.
I can go and count the topic of each debate for each channel on YouTube but I think peeinghuman has done a pretty good job here. I can believe the statistics sine ABP news runs on my home and I can see the topic of the debate there. And ABP is one of the liberal ones. I can only imagine what would be going on at Zee and Republic.

BTW, here is the count in graphical form as per counted by PeeingHuman:
1572367627727.png


The value of the diaspora to India isn't whether they will return but how effectively they can push our agenda in the country they reside in. This was the purpose of Modi courting them. The model to emulate is the jewish lobby. How they convince the US to act in matters that clearly benefit Israel but are perceived by the Americans as in their interest as well. So the Indians in the US need to be able to do that for us. Houston was a good show. They can take it to the next level.
They have no interest in pushing anybody's agenda. They support the liberal left in the US since they have no other choice. Trump has made their path to H1B & green-card difficult. The left is pro-immigration. They support Modi as it fuels their faux nationalism and seriously there is no worthy candidate in the opposition to support. Typical double standards of Indians at work here.

Look at Canada, why aren't normal Punjabis running for office ? Instead we end up with these Khalistani sympathisers. No less than the Candian defense minister got slammed by Amarinder for being a supporter. Trudeau on his visit here had to begin his speeches by clarifying Canada was not seeking the break up of India. That is a failure of the Indian lobby in Canada. Canada btw remains Modi's lowest draw. He got only 10k people attending his rally there.

Same goes for the UK. Modi's highest draw is Wembley. Close to 60k. Why have the Paks suceeded colonising the Labour Party and now that party is pushing the Pak agenda. It beggars belief that should Labour come to office whether they will choose a bankrupt state over India.
How do you differentiate between 'normal' and 'pro-khalistani' Punjabis? Canadians are not stupid enough to come and join a Modi rally. Most of the Canadian-Indians are the one who were fed up about this country and moved to greener pastures. The Khalistani movement has mostly fizzled out. I don't think it is going to be an issue in the future.

So any party that questioned the 370 move is a Pak agent now? There were concerns raised by the US House of Representatives as well as in the EU. Are they pro Pak too?

I have commented earlier as to the reason why those loans were made and with active encouragement of the govt. I don't blame the UPA govt for that though. They kicked the can down the road and it seems like this govt is doing the same as well.
But this govt was supposed to be different. They were supposed to bring acce din & vikas. If we wanted a govt who can kick the can down the road, we could have voted Congress back.

They will be released sequentially. They still have an incredible ability to cause unrest there. The govt has a plan to minimise loss of life. We will see how well it works.
But what is the purpose of conducting a sham election sans opposition? Even then they lost to independent candidates.

Goes without saying
This should tell you that the public sentiment is changing. The opposition parties fared much better than they expected even without a proper campaign. The BJP has not been able to form a govt in Maharashtra with its on and off GF Shiv Sena.
In Haryana, the govt will exist till Dushyant Chautala's daddy is out of jail. And the Jats are pissed about his support to BJP. He should forget their votes in the next elections.
 
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blr_p

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Religious dictatorships awarding the leader of future religious dictatorship.
There is more to this Saudi relationship than i realised. They need us if they want to become a $1tn economy. The Paks want MBS gone because he wants to weaken the Wahabis. Wahabis send money to the Paks which they use against us. That makes MBS an important partner for Indian policy.



Excellent work by Rishabh

Back in Feb when MBS was not welcome in the west we received him with open arms. That hug was worth a hell of a lot.

India's next move should be to become a member of the OIC. Why ? policy of OIC is they do not interfere in internal matters of their members.

This is the primary reason the Paks worked to keep us out of the OIC for over half a century.

Once India is in the OIC the Paks Kashmir push will be neutralised.
 
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