Looking for a home UPS that is smart


6pack

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I saw it selling at 13.5k for 150AH on indiamart. Goes by the name Firefly Oasis. Looks like same price point for the tubular batteries.

 
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adder

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I saw it selling at 13.5k for 150AH on indiamart. Goes by the name Firefly Oasis. Looks like same price point for the tubular batteries.

Indiamart prices are rarely updated, I saw a listing of 10.5k for exide solar battery and when I contacted the number they gave a price similar to market norm.
Moreover the prices mentioned are without GST, so for lead acid battery its 28% (vs lithium which is at 18%).

Edit: so they have a factory in gujarat, so may be it is cheaper in India vs the US made ones.
Edit 2: They make regular tall and non tubular batteries, I believe the prices mentioned are for that.
 
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blr_p

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Anyone knows what this carbon foam battery is? Specs look impressive. Don't know the price though.

They do, check this out

firefly.JPG


They are AGM VRLA, good cycle life at partial discharge

Firefly carbon foam design resists sulfation and corrosion (two of the primary causes of failure in lead-acid batteries), while dramatically increasing the surface area within the battery, resulting in greater energy capacity, faster recharges, and deeper discharge capability.
That's how they get the good cycle life

I'm having trouble figuring out how many AH these cells are and what their C rating is.

C10 or C24 given they come out as round numbers divisible by 10

An unable to tell how many years this 'industry leading warranty' is ?? and what the T&C's are for warranty in case of failure. Do they even have any dealers in Bangalore or whether this is just a Guju & Maha thing
 

rdst_1

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Do they even have any dealers in Bangalore or whether this is just a Guju & Maha thing
If you check the above Indiamart link, the ad is by a dealer in Chennai. So it seems they do have presence outside their home state.
 

adder

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I'm having trouble figuring out how many AH these cells are and what their C rating is.

C10 or C24 given they come out as round numbers divisible by 10

An unable to tell how many years this 'industry leading warranty is?
I read they are at 110ah at c20. Warranty in north america is 2 years full replacement and 4 years pro rata, exide is much better with 5 year full replacement and costs 1/4. These foam based 110ah capacity costs make look LTO chemistry a bargain. This is too expensive for a lead battery with same cycle life for deep discharge and same temperature drawbacks as a exide solatron
 
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rdst_1

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I can't wait for Li-ion batteries to become more affordable in India. Maybe in a few years, we can go for a group order on TE itself. A used Tesla battery seems like a really great alternative for building your own Lithium battery bank incrementally.
There is a company in US (there may be others as well) which sells these used Tesla battery modules. The owner of the company has actually first done this as a home project. The project was on a massive scale. The battery bank is 186 kWh made completely of Tesla battery modules. There are 8 inverters of 8kW each, solar panels of 44kW. The setup produces 125kWh each day and has produced nearly 159 MWh of energy since it was installed in 2015.
The company now sells a single Tesla battery module which has 5.2kWh capacity for $1350 in US.


Here is another US based video which shows how Li-ion batteries are actually cheaper per kWh per 1000 cycles.

 
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adder

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Importing lithium battery as a individual on such large physical package size, is not feasable the shipping is too expensive. More over they are now considered hazardous material, which requires a shipping agent who can clear it.
Back in 2017 when I asked DHL, Fedex they said they can ship it but once lithium battery arrive at the indian soil, you need a custom clearing agent who is specialized in Hazardous material and they them self don't have such a agent. Shipping it via container ship is cheaper for large heavy packs, again you need a agent who can do Door to door delivery from source to destination. Even if you club orders from here, it want to be enough to fill even quarter the volume of the 20foot container. So you will have to either share the container with some other cargo or take the full container to yourself which costs a lot.

For us if we wanted Tesla type cells you can get them in India(not of same chemistry) like from ather scooters. But Tesla doesn't use the same chemistry for cars and their power wall. For energy storage we need Lifepo4 packs which are available in India. In 5 years we will have plenty of EV vehicles which have crashed or no longer have the range to get from A to B, but is perfectly fine for energy storage.

What exact factory or commercial venture do you have. what is kw requirement.
 

rdst_1

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I have a dairy farm. Requirement is not a lot right now hence I can wait for battery pricing to come down. If I expand then definitely my power requirements will increase. The issue right now for me is reliability and low voltage. I am at quite a distance from the transformer and the transformer is currently undersized. That results in the fuse of the transformer getting blown and me having to wait for the lineman to replace it. Since they only work 9 to 5, these unnecessary cuts can last upto 16 hrs. This is the major issue which can be taken care of by upsizing the transformer. I am working on that front and will soon be putting up a petition to the local MLA but you never know how these things will pan out. If the transformer situation gets solved, I won't need many batteries and can splurge on Li-ion even if they are expensive.
 

adder

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whats the typical working hours when electricity is consumed during sunlight or after sunset, I guess you must have some freezers which consume over night. You will need batteries only when there is No Grid supply and No solar.
With lead acid battery you can get more backup for low powered load. For high load devices lithium will give their full rated range.

A 200AH lead acid c20 battery has a 10A draw for 20hrs, so a typical 4 battery inverter can give you 460watt for 20 hrs. But the same battery at c10 rating is 180ah in 10hr can give 864 watt. for 1hr it can give around 3800watt.
The same capacity lithium will give you around 9400watt in 1 hr and about 960watt for 10 hrs.

But say your load is very less like only 170w, then a c20 rated 200ah battery at a low load discharge of 170watt is equal to 250+ ah battery. In this scenario of low load the lead acid battery will give you longer back up vs lithium.(assuming all other things are equal like a 25C to 30C temperature).
 

rdst_1

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For now, the most important load that I have to run will be a 1HP motor for at least 2 hrs a day. One hour at 8 am and one hour at 8pm. The freezers isn't a big issue because I will be using a brine solution inside it which will stay cold for a lot longer. Will also need to run a 1.5HP submersible motor for a couple of minutes each day.

When I expand in 2-3 years, the 1HP motor will expand to 3HP and a 7-10kW chiller unit will be added. Might also add a bottling unit which won't need a lot of power. Am already considering going for a big Solar water heater for sure as hot water needs are also there especially since it gets quite cold over here in winter.
 

adder

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For now you are good with just lead acid battery of even just 100ah(starting size for tall tubular) 44k incl gst or a 60AH lifpo4 pack cost about 60k with bms + gst price for one inverter of 5kw rated capacity.

but when you do add the 7kw chillers that's when you will need some serious lithium battery. With three 5kw hybrid inverters running in parallel 15kw single phase or 5kw 3 phase, it will sell power and also give back up.
If you have a power cut for 16hrs. How much dairy product will be wasted, so you will have to do the math for battery vs production loss.
 

rdst_1

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Actually my issue is multifaceted and has various solutions with different prices and different levels of convenience. For example, I can rent a small room for 500 a month and all my issues will be solved. However, 2 times a day, I will have to transfer the milk from the farm to that room for cooling and packing. And this solution will still not solve the electricity issues I will continue facing at my home which is adjacent to the farm shed.
As for lead-acid batteries, I recently got a quote of 16k for Amaron 200Ah batteries and a supposedly newly launched Luminous 3.5kVa inverter which works at 36V rather than 48V for 16k as well. So total was coming to 64k and one of my friends will help me recover at least half of the GST by buying the stuff under his company name. But the only issue is I still can't solely rely on this system and will still have to spend anywhere between 50-90k on a diesel generator depending upon the capacity I go for.
 

adder

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Amaron batteries is not good in tubular batteries, compared to exide and luminous in storage batteries they have the lowest market share and poor user reviews.

The luminous is only 86% efficient in 4 battery version, the 3 battery version will be even less efficient. Buying odd number battery pack gives you less options in future to go for solar. Since most high capacity inverters are 48v or 24v.

Voltronics the OEM for my inverter has a model that is 4kw but that runs on just 2 batteries. Because of the amps it has to pull to compensate for the loss in voltage. Its double the thickness of regular 5kw unit. More amps=more heat.

So stick with 24v or 48v inverters, you can use the same batteries to go with any future solar options.
 

rdst_1

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That's good advice. So should I try and go for a Flin right now as blr_p is doing as well or can I just add MPPTs later. I think Flin has a lot more functionality and would be a wise although expensive investment. I am looking for a Hybrid inverter which has load-sharing option with the grid. I couldn't get an answer regarding this option from Flin when I asked them via Amazon. For eg, if my solar array is generating 3kW and I am using 5kW can it get only the extra 2kW from the grid. I am not looking to sell electricity back to the grid as their is lot of running around involved dealing with government officials.

I rechecked and seems Flin Infini Smart Hybrid Inverter fulfills all my above mentioned requirements. Are there any other reputed companies which are offering similar products.
 
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adder

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There two models which can do that, one is the flin ultimate model this cannot sell power to grid, this inverter basically is a online inverter, there is a continous DC to AC conversion which charges the battery and inverts to AC and this can do what you are asking, It simply mixes AC to DC from grid and DC current produced by solar and then inverts it to get the AC.

Other models which can do this are the Hybrid models, even without selling to the grid. Then do this they weigh and cost a lot more.

Both of the above models you will need thicker solar cables because they are low voltage mppt models and you will need to connect the array in series and parallel.

You can expect in the coming months for Flin FUSION model type high voltage MPPT with ability to sell to the grid.
All other MPPT models baring the Infini hybrid and Fusion model have the low voltage MPPT.
 
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rdst_1

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BTW, have you checked out the microinverter technology. I have just started reading about them and it seems that they already have a presence in India and a reputed global company which have come out with individual solar panel level microinverters. So this system turns out be very modular as you don't need to invest money right in the beginning for a big inverter. I doubt if you have not read about it before, but leaving a link for others to check out this technology. They even give 25yrs warranty (at least in US) for their microinverters.

Edit - Yikes. Checked out the pricing of these on some US websites and they seem to be even costlier than the solar panel. Considering you have to buy 1 for each panel, the system will become many times more costly than a good solar inverter setup.
 
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adder

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When I first started out to research on these micro inverters back in 2013, they seemed attractive but the price always put me off, I checked again now they haven't budged one bit, i am talking about the El cheapo Chinese options even after so many years they are still too expensive and once you scale it up you will be paying significantly more, almost twice as much as a hybrid inverter.

The one pro of this system is you wire it up easy and even if one panel is in shade rest will still power with full output.

Since these are grid tied inverter i.e exporting to the grid (as these only serve that purpose), when power fails they shutdown and again they will need to be MNRE approved which most aren't. In India you do get panels bundled with MNRE approved inverters but its just too expensive. But in urban environment these may make sense if you lack shade free large space, with this you can space it out with lesser wires and complexity.
 

blr_p

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You can expect in the coming months for Flin FUSION model type high voltage MPPT with ability to sell to the grid.
Hmm, does that mean i should put off my purchase until its comes out ?

Actually, such a model is not a good idea. You do not want grid tie integrated. You want grid tie in a separate unit

Check out the below video. He explains very well.

Also calls into question MPPT integrated vs standalone.


Be aware of the limitations of the highly popular Axpert inverter especially when using it with Solar panels.

Heh, to what do you connect the solar array if you have one

Not to the Flinn but another grid tie inverter for most flexibitly

What do you think :)

The one downside in this setup is there is no way to make use of the energy from the solar panels during an extended grid outage. Once the batteries go flat, that's the end of it.

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I already bought 150ah batteries , the 100AH would have costed 10.8k each, where as the 150AH costed 14k each. These are the absolue best price i could get in bangalore.
See, this is what i missed

4 x 100 AH gets you a 48V system for close to 2 x 200 Ah at 24 V


4 x 100 AH = Rs. 44,400


2 x 200 Ah = Rs. 42, 200

Maybe i should get the 5KVA Flinn Fuzion instead of the 3kVA

Rs.62.7k vs Rs. 48.9k

This dilemma over inability to add more batteries to a two battery system is simply resolved by using smaller capacity batteries in a 48V system

There is an added space requirement with venting now.

I have a floor above which I did not think of but should it be necessary to also support then 5kVA is better than 3kVA


I also have the sukam BMS for balancing the batteries, I have seen a video of a guy using 3 old batteries and a new exide battery and BMS will do the balancing.
Not necessary if you can use the Flinn
 
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adder

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Hmm, does that mean i should put off my purchase until its comes out ?

Actually, such a model is not a good idea. You do not want grid tie integrated. You want grid tie in a separate unit

Check out the below video. He explains very well.

Also calls into question MPPT integrated vs standalone.
Yes I saw the video about 1 week after the flin arrived. But even before that I knew about the fact that it cannot mix the balance power. So if want a inverter like that, it costs I think around 90k, which was the price of buying separate grid tied and off grid inverters. As said in my earlier posts a few pages back, this was the reason I went with a inverter that accepts high mppt voltage like other grid tie models.

Now when they do launch the new model with high mppt voltage and grid tie function, it will cost more then the ultimate model, about the same as the earlier hybrid low voltage mppt model. So I would say about 90k ball park. You can get a 3kw grid tie and a 5kw fusion inverter for the price of a true hybrid one.
Further more the new model will take time to get MNRE approval. But nevertheless I would wait for the new models.


Heh, to what do you connect the solar array if you have one

Not to the Flinn but another grid tie inverter for most flexibitly

What do you think :)
The dilemma with his model is that he has a low voltage MppT axpert inverter but grid tie inverters mostly use high voltage mppt input upto 400 to 500v for 1.5kw to 5kw systems.
So he cannot connect the inverters solar input in parallel to grid tie and off grid model.
Secondly flin fusion model takes battery and solar power to power heavy load, if the battery voltage drops really low due to low charge level, then it would fall back to the grid, until the battery is charge back again by solar upto to the predetermined battery voltage set by the user and it would then switch back to solar.
Since I have not connected or have bought any panels, that's my educated guess.

Another issue he has his that when its cloudy because of its low voltage mppt controller (which just bucks the input to the battery voltage) he will have not enough power from solar, where as in the high voltage mppt controller it converts the 400v dc bus input, it does both buck and boost and then inverts it to AC. Only the high voltage Mppt model like flin fusion works with no battery. Also the reason it cannot mix power from solar and grid simultaneously, only, the flin ultimate model can do it in off grid inverters, apart from the hybrid ones.
Low voltage mppt models need battery compulsory. So the fusion model can handle some heavy load under solar power a good bit better under cloudy conditions.

See, this is what i missed

4 x 100 AH gets you a 48V system for close to 2 x 200 Ah at 24 V
4 x 100 AH = Rs. 44,400
2 x 200 Ah = Rs. 42, 200

Maybe i should get the 5KVA Flinn Fuzion instead of the 3kVA

Rs.62.7k vs Rs. 48.9k

This dilemma over inability to add more batteries to a two battery system is simply resolved by using smaller capacity batteries in a 48V system

There is an added space requirement with venting now.

I have a floor above which I did not think of but should it be necessary to also support then 5kVA is better than 3kVA
You can get cheaper prices off line for batteries. Like 10.7k lowest quote for 100ah, 14k for 150ah , didn't ask the price for 200ah but its below 20k each.
Is the stair case area within the house living room area, the fan is noisy 57db at 1 meter in my stairs, 46db above the stairs into the first floor door. If the door next to the inverter is close, messured from outside the house main door, it is 46db. Ambient noise at 12am plus is 42db. It appears that flin may have asked the oem to put higher fan spin profile in the firmware for india, owing to general hot conditions or poorer maintenance of. Most installations in india have the solar inverter fixed outside the building. I put it inside the house under the stair case.

Also observed was that the fan seems to spin at a max speed, it doesn't run slower. Despite the fact that the ambient room temperature is 23 to 24c after the fans come ON the temperature sensor that I have placed under the inverter fan blowing out area shows it rise upto 28c when the fans switches off the sensor reads 24c.

I have mailed flin if they have a different firmware with a different fan profile.

Not necessary if you can use the Flinn
Doesn't matter what inverter you use if you have equal to or more then 2 batteries, external battery equalizer is a must
If you just give a high voltage equalizing charge it will take out the sulfation but it will not prevent one battery from being under charged or other battery from being overcharge. That's is why you need a BMS, be it for lithium or lead acid battery.

Take the 4 batteries that I got all where within 50 milli volt when they arrived but as soon as i put them to charge one was at 13.2 other was at 13.5, one was almost close to 1v lower then others. with bms connected it brought the difference between each batteries to 0.02 to 0.2v. This is Not lithium BMS level accuracy but close enough for the crude lead acid chemistry.
 
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blr_p

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Is the stair case area within the house living room area, the fan is noisy 57db at 1 meter in my stairs, 46db above the stairs into the first floor door. If the door next to the inverter is close, messured from outside the house main door, it is 46db. Ambient noise at 12am plus is 42db. It appears that flin may have asked the oem to put higher fan spin profile in the firmware for india, owing to general hot conditions or poorer maintainence of. Most installations in india have the solar inverter fixed outside the building. I put it inside the house under the stair case.
The staircase isn't within the living area. It's in separate room that leads to the top floor. The area under the stair case is about 1200 litres. It has a door.

I wanted to put the Flin in there with the batteries with some sort of venting system that i've yet to figure out.

I thought i might just put the Flin outside the broom closet in the staircase room but if the fan gets loud then there is only a wall separating it from a bed room & a living room. So the Flin will have to go inside the broom closet under the stairs.

Also observed was that the fan seems to spin at a max speed, it doesn't run slower. Despite the fact thatnthe ambient room temperature is 23 to 24c after the fans come ON the temperature sensor that I have placed under the inverter fan blowing out area shows it rise upto 28c when the fans switches off the sensor reads 24c.

I have mailed flin if they have a different firmware with a different fan profile.
Let us know how it goes

Doesnt matter what inverter you use if you have equal to or more then 2 batteries, external battery equalizer is a must
If you just give a high voltage equalizing charge it will take out the sulfation but it will not prevent one batteyr from being under charged or other battery from being overcharge. Thats is why you need a BMS, be it for lithium or lead acid battery.

Take the 4 batteries that I got all where within 50 milli volt when they arrived but as soon as i put them to charge one was at 13.2 other was at 13.5, one was almost close to 1v lower then others. with bms connected it brought the difference between each batteries to 0.02 to 0.2v. This is Not lithium BMS level accuracy but close enough for the crude lead acid chemistry.
Any recommendations for a BMS ?