Looking for a home UPS that is smart


rdst_1

Well-Known Member
Veteran
May 10, 2009
2,558
1,148
253
32
I have decided to go with a normal Luminous Cruze for now as I don't see myself able to afford a complete solar setup any time soon and it would be a waste to spend a lakh on an inverter for now. Plus, Flin are still selling the Voltronics Infini V1 which has low PV voltage of 145VDC while V2 supports 450 VDC and Infini Plus model supports 900VDC. I guess as market matures we should see more VFM products being made available in the Indian market.

Now, from my research, it seems, only Sukam made a BMS for lead-acid batteries in the whole world. Finding one is going to be a bit of a challenge since the company has shut-down and I am wondering if I should stock up on a few if I find them for when I might increase the battery bank.

Last thing, need to order 4 batteries. Is it advisable to order batteries online. Also, I know it has been said earlier in this thread that Exide are the best, but are the expensive Luminous really that bad. Alao, given my place of stay i.e. Himachal, can I get away with buying cheaper batteries as the temperatures are never as high as other places over here,for which the more expenaive batteries seem to be designed for. Lastly, if I need to buy expensive batteries, does it make sense going for C10 batteries even if I don't have a solar setup right now. Also, where to find C10 or if possible C5 batteries in India. All exide and luminous solar batteries are C10, right. I think they would be better for me because I mainly need the backup to run a couple of refrigerators and hence the current draw will be high as compared to normal household.
Also, what all to look out for when purchasing or selecting the batteries from a dealer's stock.
 

adder

Well-Known Member
Veteran
Jul 8, 2007
3,472
278
173
The infini V2 will not cost as much as V1, its cheaper for Voltronics to make 450v DC (less copper and less heat )vs 145v DC one. You can even directly import it and is still cheaper then flin, I will hence forth buy directly from china for my install in village and couple of other close relative places and will just install LFP batteries for those installations, which have no one maintaining batteries.

I will probably in the future get a more power full unit, when I get a EV car. For now this inverter has more then enough power to power a 1.5 ton and .8ton 5 star inverter air conditioners and charge a potential EV scooter simultaneously .

In india only sukam made the BMS, so if you don't want a display you can go for chinese options like a HA02..

Exide batteries simply has more weight and their service network is vast, they supply batteries to pretty much every government from Navy submarines to indian railways.
You do get c5 batteries, but they are only available on special order and is super expensive. They only come in 2v and 6v versions.

Expensive batteries simply have more lead, which means they have more life and have more charge/discharge cycles and that is why they are expensive and they have nothing to do with the temperature.
If you are sure that you want be adding solar in the next 5 years , then you could go for c20 batteries assuming that they discharged to about 50%. For deep discharges a c10 battery is preferred.

When look at a dealer stock look at the manufacturing date, I would avoid buying batteries which are more then 3 to 4 months old. Make sure the serial number matches the carton box and battery. Ensure that two nut and bolt and 6 floats are supplied and floats are not damaged or severely bent( typically exide will replace or give the missing accessories on their service request visit).
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: rdst_1

rdst_1

Well-Known Member
Veteran
May 10, 2009
2,558
1,148
253
32
So I went and compiled some data regarding different models of batteries being sold by Exide and Luminous viz their weight and warranties.

In my case, Exide doesn't even show a dealer for my state but I think their website is flawed as they only show dealers for just 12 states. On the other hand Luminous not only shows authorized dealers in 25kms but I also know that they even have a few factories in my state, Himachal.

Tomorrow, I'll have to finalize my order for 4 batteries and I'll be travelling to Chandigarh to get prices for retail stores and compare with the best offers for me on Amazon. It looks like I might end up getting Luminous batteries as I can't find many sellers for Exide batteries on Amazon. If local prices are much better, then I'll probably pick Exide but only if prices are not too expensive.

My current usage, until I go for solar, will be for deep discharge but very infrequent use.

Link to compiled data - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DU-4ga4ipo_CPuDMPii5g9Wms82sXT2MUky5uFMmUw0/edit?usp=drivesdk
 

adder

Well-Known Member
Veteran
Jul 8, 2007
3,472
278
173
Just to give you and idea about weight difference my exide 150ah (6lms150L) weighs 43kg dry vs a luminous inverlast 60months( pro rata) 220ah dry weight just 42kg, luminous solar c10 battery 200ah battery weights dry 43.9kg and 150ah weighs 34.8kg. So that's a lot of difference and lately the price of exide and luminous is almost same for the 150ah c10 capacity. I guess this due the scale no one buys c10 batteries from luminous.
https://docs.exideindustries.com/pdf/industrial-export-batteries/products/ceil-solar-brochure.pdf
 

rdst_1

Well-Known Member
Veteran
May 10, 2009
2,558
1,148
253
32
Yeah. I have the same values in my excel sheet. I do want to buy the solar batteries as they are definitely constructed way better as you pointed out above but have heard contradictory reports that companies refuse warranty if those batteries aren't charged by solar panels. I don't see the logic behind denying warranty for those reasons, but who knows what goes on in the minds of the people who make such rules.
 

rdst_1

Well-Known Member
Veteran
May 10, 2009
2,558
1,148
253
32
Got a quote of 13350 for Exide 6LMS150L.

Edit - @adder - How far away are you from building your own LiFePo4 battery packs.
 
Last edited:

adder

Well-Known Member
Veteran
Jul 8, 2007
3,472
278
173
For me in the city not now, but a for a village install about 1 to 1.5 year away. That's a good price for the exide, I guess its cheaper there considering the distance the battery has to travel from factory vs here in south india. At that price I see no reason why anyone would want to go for a luminous.
Make sure its the 6lms150L not the 6lms150.
 

rdst_1

Well-Known Member
Veteran
May 10, 2009
2,558
1,148
253
32
For me in the city not now, but a for a village install about 1 to 1.5 year away. That's a good price for the exide, I guess its cheaper there considering the distance the battery has to travel from factory vs here in south india. At that price I see no reason why anyone would want to go for a luminous.
Make sure its the 6lms150L not the 6lms150.
Yeah. Price is for 150L as the seller confirmed it in front of me from Exide distributor by asking him price for the 60 months warranty one. 150 has 36 months warranty I guess.
Whenever you go ahead with building your LiFePo4 batteries, do ping me. I might go in with you as it might help us getting better pricing.
Also, if you were building one now, what would be your source of cells ( which one would you prefer, prismatic or cylindrical) and BMS.
 

adder

Well-Known Member
Veteran
Jul 8, 2007
3,472
278
173
Yes, I think we should have more people to get prices down, also in larger quantities we have option for high AH capacity cells. currently they refuse to import large capacity cells because of low quantity of my order. I will let you know a couple months in advance.

Cheapest method is using cyclindrical cells 32650 size of max capacity 6ah, but we need lots of bms, even then we can balance a group of say 4 batteries in parallel and about 16 cells in series at a time. So for 64 cells 51.2v nominal (equal to 48v 24ah lead battery) we need 1 bms. Some people go as high as 10 batteries in parallel, theory is they balance each other out but I am not confident to go beyond 4 to 6 cells in parallel which is the norm in cordless power tools or ev scooters.

But if we get a prismatic cell with a hard case, then we can get sizes of 20ah,40,60,80,100ah so we need only 1 bms to get the job done if we say go for a 100ah ones.albeit these high capacity bms is expensive about 15k for a good one rated at 100a or more continous and have their own screen for settings and info or by bluetooth data. Some even go for dumb bms which also works surprisingly well they just bleed the excess current by a resistor vs a active bms which can take power from overcharged cell and give it to undercharged cell.
These prismatic cells are more expensive but have higher cycle life then chinese cylindrical ones but both cheap chinese cells will outlast lead acid by atleast 3 times. Sony cyclidrical lfp cells last as high as 8000cycles and still have 80% life left. You sometimes see used sony LFP cells in ebay and they always outbid you by many times over because they are that good.
 

blr_p

Well-Known Member
Veteran
Apr 11, 2007
6,212
1,346
301
Got a quote of 13350 for Exide 6LMS150L.
Is that with or without an old battery exchange ? needs to be the same AH & type to get the price quoted with exchange


Those are the prices i get from a local seller

Ensure you get the serial numbers and verify the manufacture date by calling exide CC before paying. Don't just go with what's printed on the box.

If the seller is unwilling to share that info at the time of sale then find one that will.
Post automatically merged:

Yeah. Price is for 150L as the seller confirmed it in front of me from Exide distributor by asking him price for the 60 months warranty one. 150 has 36 months warranty I guess.
Is it 3 or 5 yr warranty ?
 
Last edited:

rdst_1

Well-Known Member
Veteran
May 10, 2009
2,558
1,148
253
32
Is that with or without an old battery exchange ? needs to be the same AH & type to get the price quoted with exchange


Those are the prices i get from a local seller

Ensure you get the serial numbers and verify the manufacture date by calling exide CC before paying. Don't just go with what's printed on the box.

If the seller is unwilling to share that info at the time of sale then find one that will.
Post automatically merged:


Is it 3 or 5 yr warranty ?
13350, without exchange. 5 yr warranty. I got the quote from one of the largest dealers in Chandigarh through the help of a friend who knows the shopkeeper for decades.


Yes, I think we should have more people to get prices down, also in larger quantities we have option for high AH capacity cells. currently they refuse to import large capacity cells because of low quantity of my order. I will let you know a couple months in advance.

Cheapest method is using cyclindrical cells 32650 size of max capacity 6ah, but we need lots of bms, even then we can balance a group of say 4 batteries in parallel and about 16 cells in series at a time. So for 64 cells 51.2v nominal (equal to 48v 24ah lead battery) we need 1 bms. Some people go as high as 10 batteries in parallel, theory is they balance each other out but I am not confident to go beyond 4 to 6 cells in parallel which is the norm in cordless power tools or ev scooters.

But if we get a prismatic cell with a hard case, then we can get sizes of 20ah,40,60,80,100ah so we need only 1 bms to get the job done if we say go for a 100ah ones.albeit these high capacity bms is expensive about 15k for a good one rated at 100a or more continous and have their own screen for settings and info or by bluetooth data. Some even go for dumb bms which also works surprisingly well they just bleed the excess current by a resistor vs a active bms which can take power from overcharged cell and give it to undercharged cell.
These prismatic cells are more expensive but have higher cycle life then chinese cylindrical ones but both cheap chinese cells will outlast lead acid by atleast 3 times. Sony cyclidrical lfp cells last as high as 8000cycles and still have 80% life left. You sometimes see used sony LFP cells in ebay and they always outbid you by many times over because they are that good.
Okay. So prismatic cells make more sense for energy storage use even though we can make some really cheap battery banks out of cylindrical cells even now. The prices of the cylindrical cells is what had got me excited in the first place. I plan to visit a Renewable Energy Expo sometime soon to get some more grasp at the market situation. Hopefully we can build something not too far in the distant future. I am still 3-4 months away from making my battery purchase so I'll keep digging.

Edit - Found a seller/manufacturer in my vicinity. Might give them a visit. Let me know what questions need to be asked to understand their batteries better.

Edit 2 - Seems like this company has industrial products as well as something which looks and feels very close to a Tesla Powerwall. And they are willing to provide a 10 year warranty for their products.
 
Last edited:

adder

Well-Known Member
Veteran
Jul 8, 2007
3,472
278
173
Edit - Found a seller/manufacturer in my vicinity. Might give them a visit. Let me know what questions need to be asked to understand their batteries better.
Already spoke to them in expo last nov and the one before it to. Their prices are more expensive then a local supplier in Bangalore. But you can still ask them about the LFP prices
There are many companies which have products with built in lithium and solar inverter, they all cost quite a lot then diy solution.
 

blr_p

Well-Known Member
Veteran
Apr 11, 2007
6,212
1,346
301
Looking on the bright side of this crisis. Less power cuts this hot season :D


 
Last edited: