# Looking for a home UPS that is smart

#### Julian

##### om nom nom
Veteran
From my cost calculations, i was going to get 2 x 200AH + a luminous 2kVA cruze, that's around 40k+
That's 4.8 KWh.

How much does the regalia 1550 at 80k give ?

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#### blr_p

##### Well-Known Member
Veteran
The Regalia 1550 says 2.44 kWh means 50AH x 48V

These lithiums run at 48V not 12V

So a 50Ah battery at 48V is the equivalent of a 200AH battery at 12V

But you need to de-rate that lead acid battery as you ain't getting 200AH out of it with regular use.

If its C20 then that's 10A for 20h which means can deliver a a measly power draw of 120W for 20h. Who can manage with such a low power load. Most load requirements are more which which means its worth less than 200AH

If its C10 then its 20A for 10h for twice that power draw or 240W, but battery costs go up for a C10, though i was quoted around 15k for a 200AH C10 battery a few months back

I was looking for 4h backup. If you flatten a C20 battery in 4h, the derating formula for tubulars is approx 65% of 200AH = 130AH this means to get 200AH worth of battery you really need 300AH.

With C10 you could get away with a 270AH as C10 derate at 75% for a 4h draw

Next you need to take into account the inverters efficiency. cheap means 60%, better means approaching 80%

The cruze was rated at close to 80% efficient so let's take that.

With the C20 i now need 400AH ie 400 * 0.65 * 0.8 ~ 200AH

With the C10 i need 330AH ie 330 * 0.65 * 0.8 ~ 200 AH

These figures might seem inflated but there's good reasons for it. I've purposely over sized my load requirement by 50%. I don't want to run around the place switching things off. My real load is likely in the 400+W range but i calculate based on 600+W. You could get more out of the battery by decreasing the load, this means your run time is longer and the de-rating will be less aggressive as a result. But for my uses with lead acid to get real 200AH requires at least 350AH

I also over sized my time requirements by 100%. Worst case i need 2h but i said 4h run time. A tubular will give you a thousand cycles if discharged down to 80%. Well, what happens if you only discharge it 50% then your cycles double. If you discharge less you get still more cycles. Result is a longer lasting battery.

Right sizing means changing batteries every 3-4 years this way i figured i could double the life of lead acids by over sizing. I'd rather pay all in one go now than in the future with inflation on top. And this all is provided I don't get an aged battery ( i would not buy a battery that was older than 4 months due to sulphation) or a defective battery (QC on consumer batteries isn't great hence the warranties) and water maintenance is kept to religiously. Any slip ups and the battery is shot.

Call it 30k+ for 2 x C10 200Ah

So, now what about the lithiums. The efficiency of the inverter is 90% say. The 50AH becomes 45AH.

What about load characterisitcs for lithum ? i don't have any data for that as yet.

50AH is 50AH under what draw. There are no C ratings for lithiums AFAIK. The vendors calculations are based off the battery ratings and ignore load. More load less power that's just how batteries work. Question is how much less power.

So if i have a 600W load then my current draw is 12.5A with a 48V battery. Four times lower than if the battery was 12V. That's got to help things.

Battery university says lithium phosphate has a flat discharge curve. Lithiums are known for being able to deliver high power so i'd imagine there isn't a whole lot of derating going on to begin with.

So how much does a 50Ah lithium cost ? i don't know. Apparently the price of spare batteries for the Regalia hasn't been made known by Luminous as yet.

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vaalkai

##### Well-Known Member
Veteran
My nearly 9 year old exide EL series is almost completly dead now.

Got a 95 percent plus efficiency 5kw solar inverter, will be installing 4 x Exide c10 150ah solar batteries which is heavier then luminous 200ah batteries. Best quote i got was 15k per battery.

I tried looking at lithium batteries but currently, it is to expensive. In a few years when it drops in price it makes sense. I would rather spend that money on solar panels. The ultimate Lithium battery is the LTO chemistry based one which have a cycle of about 15000cycles, even after which you will still have 70 to 80% life left. Currently the cost for 12v 200ah x 4 costs 1.6lakh for chinese made ones in china+ shipping via sea and customs and agent fees will make it cost 3lakh.
good ones like toshiba costs \$700/1kw which is equivalent to a 12v 84ah battery,
even lithium Ion costs about Rs 25k/kw, assuming one doesn't get hit with customs.

As far hydrogen gas released, do note that it only releases during the charging cycle. Since it is a light gas it quickly escapes, if one has a window or ventilation.

The cycle life of all batteries depend on how deep you dicharge them, APC only compares them to most pathetic of them all battery which is the Vrla, which are best suited for stand by application for a ahort duration before the generator kicks in,not for long power cuts or cyclic use.

Lithium batteries also derate. but all of them can give c1 charge rate.

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#### Julian

##### om nom nom
Veteran
The Regalia 1550 says 2.44 kWh means 50AH x 48V

These lithiums run at 48V not 12V

So a 50Ah battery at 48V is the equivalent of a 200AH battery at 12V

But you need to de-rate that lead acid battery as you ain't getting 200AH out of it with regular use.

If its C20 then that's 10A for 20h which means a a power draw of 200W. Who can manage that. Most loads are more which which means its worth less than 200AH

If its C10 then its 20A for 10h for the same power draw, but battery costs go up for a C10, though i was quoted around 15k for a 200AH C10 battery a few months back

I was looking for 4h backup. If you flatten a C20 battery in 4h, the derating formula for tubulars is approx 65% of 200AH = 130AH this means to get 200AH worth of battery you really need 300AH.

With C10 you could get away with a 270AH as C10 derate at 75% for a 4h draw

Next you need to take into account the inverters efficiency. cheap means 60%, better means approaching 80%

The cruze was rated at close to 80% efficient so let's take that.

With the C20 i now need 400AH ie 400 * 0.65 * 0.8 ~ 200AH

With the C10 i need 330AH ie 330 * 0.65 * 0.8 ~ 200 AH

These figures might seem inflated but there's good reasons for it. I've purposely over sized my load requirement by 50%. I don't want to run around the place switching things off. My real load is likely in the 400+W range but i calculate based on 600+W. You could get more out of the battery by decreasing the load, this means your run time is longer and the de-rating will be less aggressive as a result. But for my uses with lead acid to get real 200AH requires at least 350AH

I also over sized my time requirements by 100%. Worst case i need 2h but i said 4h run time. A tubular will give you a thousand cycles if discharged down to 80%. Well, what happens if you only discharge it 50% then your cycles double. If you discharge less you get still more cycles. Result is a longer lasting battery.

Right sizing means changing batteries every 3-4 years this way i figured i could double the life of lead acids by over sizing. I'd rather pay all in one go now than in the future with inflation on top. And this all is provided I don't get an aged battery ( i would not buy a battery that was older than 4 months due to sulphation) or a defective battery (QC on consumer batteries isn't great hence the warranties) and water maintenance is kept to religiously. Any slip ups and the battery is shot.

So, now what about the lithiums. The efficiency of the inverter is 90% say. The 50AH becomes 45AH.

What about load characterisitcs for lithum ? i don't have any data for that as yet.

50AH is 50AH under what draw. There are no C ratings for lithiums AFAIK. The vendors calculations are based off the battery ratings and ignore load. More load less power that's just how batteries work. Question is how much less power.

So if i have a 600W load then my current draw is 12.5A with a 48V battery. Four times lower than if the battery was 12V. That's got to help things.

Battery university says lithium phosphate has a flat discharge curve. Lithiums are known for being able to deliver high power so i'd imagine there isn't a whole lot of derating going on to begin with.

So how much does a 50Ah lithium cost ? i don't know. Apparently the price of spare batteries for the Regalia hasn't been made known by Luminous as yet.
A whole lot of calculations for a simple answer.

Lead-acid + 2kVA cruze @ Rs. 40k = 4.8 KWh
Regalia 1550 @ Rs. 80k = 2.4KWh

so you're spending twice as much for half the energy capacity. Funny how it works out to exactly those figures.

Which was what i said originally about lithium ion vs LA.

Carry on with the calculations...

#### blr_p

##### Well-Known Member
Veteran
Lead-acid + 2kVA cruze @ Rs. 40k = 4.8 KWh
Regalia 1550 @ Rs. 80k = 2.4KWh

so you're spending twice as much for half the energy capacity. Funny how it works out to exactly those figures.
You are ignoring de-rating and keep in mind i'm not going to shut everything down so that my load is 200W

So its double not 4x at least with my use case, can be better with others

It is 4x if you go by the initial launch prices which as we've found were not sustainable

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#### blr_p

##### Well-Known Member
Veteran
Got a 95 percent plus efficiency 5kw solar inverter, will be installing 4 x Exide c10 150ah solar batteries which is heavier then luminous 200ah batteries. Best quote i got was 15k per battery.
I've posted specs in 6packs thread. the Vijay C10 batteries looked good

4 x 150 ? i thought you only used one 150Ah

I tried looking at lithium batteries but currently, it is to expensive. In a few years when it drops in price it makes sense. I would rather spend that money on solar panels.
I'm not convinced on the break even point of these panels. It's 6-7 years out if you want to benefit from them and then there's quality differences

How long to wait

The ultimate Lithium battery is the LTO chemistry based one which have a cycle of about 15000cycles, even after which you will still have 70 to 80% life left. Currently the cost for 12v 200ah x 4 costs 1.6lakh for chinese made ones in china+ shipping via sea and customs and agent fees will make it cost 3lakh.
good ones like toshiba costs \$700/1kw which is equivalent to a 12v 84ah battery,
even lithium Ion costs about Rs 25k/kw, assuming one doesn't get hit with customs.
Lithium Titanate (LTO) is good for 3000 - 7000 cycles according to battery university. These will be the most expensive. Maybe this is where that 4x thing comes from.

Lithium phosphate is cheaper and why Schneider is going with them.

As far hydrogen gas released, do note that it only releases during the charging cycle. Since it is a light gas it quickly escapes, if one has a window or ventilation.
Hydrogen isn't a problem its a cell going bad or overcharging for some unknown reason and releasing hydrogen sulphide that is the problem. If i didn't live on the ground floor, i'd just stick it out in a box on the balcony and be done with it.

It's going to be put in a staircase room, a staircase goes to the top floor there are people going up and down. The door is open during the day and there are a couple of windows higher up.

The cycle life of all batteries depend on how deep you dicharge them, APC only compares them to most pathetic of them all battery which is the Vrla, which are best suited for stand by application for a ahort duration before the generator kicks in,not for long power cuts or cyclic use.
Right, those zero maintenance ones.

Lithium batteries also derate. but all of them can give c1 charge rate.
C1 means charges in an hour and flat in one hour. My draw is for 3-4 hours. That is C/3-4, in fact so is the charge rate. So there isn't any derating or very little with a draw time like that. Certainly no where as bad as lead acid.

Where it has an effect is with lower temperatures. Higher temperatures don't affect lithium capacity.

Lead acid is normally rated at c/20 or c/10 but phosphates are 0.3C so the derating is minimal.

http://nordkyndesign.com/practical-characteristics-of-lithium-iron-phosphate-battery-cells/

##### Well-Known Member
Veteran
I've posted specs in 6packs thread. the Vijay C10 batteries looked good

4 x 150 ? i thought you only used one 150Ah
I currently had a pair of 40AH c10 batteries for 24v APC SUA100oUXI , the batteries are now almost dead. Now I bought a new Solar inverter which needs 48v input. I spoke to Vijay batteries they only offer 3 years warranty and the weight of the batteries has not been updated since ages in their website. Their new batteries are lower in weight compared to Exide.

I'm not convinced on the break even point of these panels. It's 6-7 years out if you want to benefit from them and then there's quality differences

How long to wait
Let assume we only talk about the investment for the Solar panels related costs, leaving aside the inverter and batteries. One may spend around 28k to 32k for 1kw of panels, plus the cost of the brackets, wires, DC DB/isolaters, installation etc.

For me the break even point in theory is around 4 years with a 2kw of solar panels, since I am doing the installation my self from installing brackets, wiring basically everything, I will save more compared to others.
One will need to add around 25k to 30k premium for a MPPT capable solar inverter over a normal inverter of same capacity. Once I buy a electric scooter such as Ather s450, the break even will be very less. I will not be paying a dime to Ather after the free 1 year Ather one plan, whether they like it or not, In some 2 to 4 years we will see many more electric vehicles.

Lithium Titanate (LTO) is good for 3000 - 7000 cycles according to battery university. These will be the most expensive. Maybe this is where that 4x thing comes from.

Lithium phosphate is cheaper and why Schneider is going with them.
LTO batteries from Toshiba already have 15000 cycle life, they are already working on a slightly better chemistry and will be available to clients in 1 or 2 years time.
The Chinese LTO batteries cost around 15 USD for 2.4v 40ah battery in china+ shipping and customs. The voltages are exactly the same as Lead acid battery, a typical 12v battery as 6 cells.

LiFeO4 batteries, have a higher voltage. Most if not all western companies have closed shop or have been bought by the chinese companies. I had a horrible reliability with this chemistry, when I used them in my RC cars back in 2010.
But Chinese auto industry has been using them for ages so I guess their quality has improved.

Hydrogen isn't a problem its a cell going bad or overcharging for some unknown reason and releasing hydrogen sulphide that is the problem. If i didn't live on the ground floor, i'd just stick it out in a box on the balcony and be done with it.

It's going to be put in a staircase room, a staircase goes to the top floor there are people going up and down. The door is open during the day and there are a couple of windows higher up.
I am installing in the staircase room, which has windows. I determined that that it won't be a issue. As far as the sulphide gas, once you set the charge settings correctly, you don't need to set them for the life of the battery, So it won't overcharge. Case being is me I used them for close to 9 years now and has never overcharged not once. On the other hand the lipo battery in the mobile can explode or catch fire if overcharged, yet billions of people use them.

C1 means charges in an hour and flat in one hour. My draw is for 3-4 hours. That is C/3-4, in fact so is the charge rate. So there isn't any derating or very little with a draw time like that. Certainly no where as bad as lead acid.

Where it has an effect is with lower temperatures. Higher temperatures don't affect lithium capacity.

Lead acid is normally rated at c/20 or c/10 but phosphates are 0.3C so the derating is minimal.

http://nordkyndesign.com/practical-characteristics-of-lithium-iron-phosphate-battery-cells/
True about that, but the thing you can get a much higher capacity lead acid battery for the same price as you would spend for lithium, For me I would only use at a rate of C90 at night thanks to Brushless fans, I day time it is still less then C10, only If I switch On a induction stove(max 20min) or geyser or the air conditioner will it drop to C5 to C1. But with solar assisting in the Day the batteries will mostly be fully charges or at worst drawing at C10. When I can save up and put more panels to a total of 4kw then the batteries voltages will only drop on cloudy days.

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blr_p

#### blr_p

##### Well-Known Member
Veteran
I currently had a pair of 40AH c10 batteries for 24v APC SUA100oUXI , the batteries are now almost dead. Now I bought a new Solar inverter which needs 48v input. I spoke to Vijay batteries they only offer 3 years warranty and the weight of the batteries has not been updated since ages in their website. Their new batteries are lower in weight compared to Exide.
oh this is sad. Their first run is good quality and then they start cutting corners. Bet the first run cost more as well. Figures, Exide is the only one that keeps to standards. You get what you pay for. 20k a piece for 200Ah C10 EL

But those EL series come with warranty that strictly keeps it to smart ups only. You didn't have a problem but if you did and the service people found out you were using it for home ups purpose they would refuse the warranty on the spot. Solar isn't included either. Technically there should be no problem but people will use anything to get away from their responsibility.

So which 4 x C10 150AH are you going to get ? 60k+ worth at least.

Let assume we only talk about the investment for the Solar panels related costs, leaving aside the inverter and batteries. One may spend around 28k to 32k for 1kw of panels, plus the cost of the brackets, wires, DC DB/isolaters, installation etc.

For me the break even point in theory is around 4 years with a 2kw of solar panels, since I am doing the installation my self from installing brackets, wiring basically everything, I will save more compared to others.
One will need to add around 25k to 30k premium for a MPPT capable solar inverter over a normal inverter of same capacity. Once I buy a electric scooter such as Ather s450, the break even will be very less. I will not be paying a dime to Ather after the free 1 year Ather one plan, whether they like it or not, In some 2 to 4 years we will see many more electric vehicles.
There is something about 2kW. What is it. People were flagging the regalia's inability to accept more than 800W from solar as a limitation. They wanted 2kW input. They were saying better to wait for the next version. Who knows when that will come out and if it will even support 2KW solar given its been over five years now we've seen a product refresh. The home UPS industry moves at a glacial pace.

LTO batteries from Toshiba already have 15000 cycle life, they are already working on a slightly better chemistry and will be available to clients in 1 or 2 years time.
The Chinese LTO batteries cost around 15 USD for 2.4v 40ah battery in china+ shipping and customs. The voltages are exactly the same as Lead acid battery, a typical 12v battery as 6 cells.

LiFeO4 batteries, have a higher voltage. Most if not all western companies have closed shop or have been bought by the chinese companies. I had a horrible reliability with this chemistry, when I used them in my RC cars back in 2010.
But Chinese auto industry has been using them for ages so I guess their quality has improved.
Do you have any spec sheets for those Toshibas that claim 15,000 cycles. That is an insane amount.

RC cars are high draw isn't it. How long did your cars last on a full charge ? 15 mins is 4C, 30 minutes is 2C

How long did it take to charge the battery ? half hour is 2C again

So you discharge 2-4C and charge at 1-2C and you do this frequently. I'm not surprised cycle life would be affected. This is real fast charge. People confuse the present crop of phones charging with fast charge but none of them can charge a phone to full in half hour or even an hour. And nobody kills the phone as fast either

But Super VOOC will do a full charge in a half hour so we're getting there.

I am installing in the staircase room, which has windows. I determined that that it won't be a issue. As far as the sulphide gas, once you set the charge settings correctly, you don't need to set them for the life of the battery, So it won't overcharge. Case being is me I used them for close to 9 years now and has never overcharged not once. On the other hand the lipo battery in the mobile can explode or catch fire if overcharged, yet billions of people use them.
See, this is what i think as well. The Cruze isn't going to overcharge so the chances of a H2S leak are minimal. Most would accept the risk. It's only in the case it does happen for whatever reason i'm going to be stuck. Then what do you do. Have to replace the battery on the spot. Maybe the charging circuit has a problem. To and fro. UPS maker blames battery and battery maker blames UPS.

If the battery is outdoors you will never know this even happened and can still continue.

True about that, but the thing you can get a much higher capacity lead acid battery for the same price as you would spend for lithium, For me I would only use at a rate of C90 at night thanks to Brushless fans, I day time it is still less then C10, only If I switch On a induction stove(max 20min) or geyser or the air conditioner will it drop to C5 to C1. But with solar assisting in the Day the batteries will mostly be fully charges or at worst drawing at C10. When I can save up and put more panels to a total of 4kw then the batteries voltages will only drop on cloudy days.
Way i calculate it is lead acid is half the cost for similar or little more capacity than lithium phosphate. Could be still less if you keep your loads down.

I have no idea how you can get away with C10 - C20 in a general use. If the power goes off in the middle of the night sure. But that rarely happens in my experience. C5 - C10 i suppose is possible during the daytime.

This year has been better than previous ones. There was a long spell of no cuts and i was thinking maybe it was a good idea i put the whole UPS idea off but then it started again

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#### rdst_1

##### Well-Known Member
Veteran
My experience with Li-ion batteries has been through power tools.
These are 18V tools. Now they have even come up with 54V tools by rearranging the way cells are connected inside the battery pack. The best part about Li-ion is that it works at full rated power right till the end. The future is definitely going to be Li based batteries as technologies improve and prices come down.
I decided to go with a Generator for my dairy farm rather than a high capacity inverter just because a generator is more reliable and initial investment is very less. All lighting etc will be on a simple inverter whereas all motor or higher loads on generator.

##### Well-Known Member
Veteran
oh this is sad. Their first run is good quality and then they start cutting corners. Bet the first run cost more as well. Figures, Exide is the only one that keeps to standards. You get what you pay for. 20k a piece for 200Ah C10 EL

But those EL series come with warranty that strictly keeps it to smart ups only. You didn't have a problem but if you did and the service people found out you were using it for home ups purpose they would refuse the warranty on the spot. Solar isn't included either. Technically there should be no problem but people will use anything to get away from their responsibility.

So which 4 x C10 150AH are you going to get ? 60k+ worth at least.
I checked the EL150 it comes with 4 year warranty best price I got for that was 14800, No one is able to provide the wet or Dry weight of the current model. So for a 2oo more I can get the 5 year warranty Solar 6LMS150L . For the older battery I was using it for a smart UPS only, but connected it to the house circuit (minus the heating high amp draw appliances)

There is something about 2kW. What is it. People were flagging the regalia's inability to accept more than 800W from solar as a limitation. They wanted 2kW input. They were saying better to wait for the next version. Who knows when that will come out and if it will even support 2KW solar given its been over five years now we've seen a product refresh. The home UPS industry moves at a glacial pace.
Not sure about the 2kw demand, but my inverter needs a minimum of 1500watt of solar and a max of 4000watt. Can run without batteries too. Practically, 2kw you will only get it at the right condition at temp 25C. you will be able to run 1000watt appliances with a 2kw system and may be able to get close to 2kw in mid afternoon.

Do you have any spec sheets for those Toshibas that claim 15,000 cycles. That is an insane amount.
https://www.scib.jp/en/product/cell.htm Looks like they are now claiming 40000 cycle life for a 2.9ah cell (these new cells wasn't listed just few days ago when I checked) and 20000 cycle life for a 10ah to 20ah cell even after which they maintain 90% capacity. o to 80% charge in 3 min. A 2.4AH cell can discharge at 200amps, thats insane. This is chemistry suitable for public transport buses, trucks and large passenger vehicles which have big chassis.

RC cars are high draw isn't it. How long did your cars last on a full charge ? 15 mins is 4C, 30 minutes is 2C

How long did it take to charge the battery ? half hour is 2C again

So you discharge 2-4C and charge at 1-2C and you do this frequently. I'm not surprised cycle life would be affected. This is real fast charge. People confuse the present crop of phones charging with fast charge but none of them can charge a phone to full in half hour or even an hour. And nobody kills the phone as fast either
.
Honestly I charged them at 1c only, despite the fact that I could charge it at a higher C.
The amp draw during discharge was never over the claimed C rating, it peaked to about 15c or about 80amps for a short second, which is well within its rating. The first 4cell pack puffed, I then bought a 5 cell pack this was good for 1.5 to 2 years before it to started to Puff in size. Now I use Lipo these are good for 4 years and they to started to Puff. But my Sony/samsung/Panasonic/sanyo 18650's used for flashlights, RC aerial vehicles never puffed and is still strong.
Even a tesla model S (which uses 18650 cells) used by fleet/taxi have gone through multiple battery replacements, because the taxi/fleet owners always use Supercharger daily multiple times. On the other hand people who don't use the supercharger daily ,have gone 1lakh km plus, without replacing their batteries.

See, this is what i think as well. The Cruze isn't going to overcharge so the chances of a H2S leak are minimal. Most would accept the risk. It's only in the case it does happen for whatever reason i'm going to be stuck. Then what do you do. Have to replace the battery on the spot. Maybe the charging circuit has a problem. To and fro. UPS maker blames battery and battery maker blames UPS.

If the battery is outdoors you will never know this even happened and can still continue.
Keeping flooded lead acid battery outdoor is also a bad idea do to higher temperature.dust, evaporation. One could use a cheap Arduino and attach a gas sensor which would sound a alarm and/or turn ON a exhaust fan. Which is what I intend to do.

Way i calculate it is lead acid is half the cost for similar or little more capacity than lithium phosphate. Could be still less if you keep your loads down.

I have no idea how you can get away with C10 - C20 in a general use. If the power goes off in the middle of the night sure. But that rarely happens in my experience. C5 - C10 i suppose is possible during the daytime.

This year has been better than previous ones. There was a long spell of no cuts and i was thinking maybe it was a good idea i put the whole UPS idea off but then it started again
LifepO4 batteries are more expensive then 18650 cells and lead acid because the scale of production is smaller, all lithium batteries imported in India are Taxed heavily. So they cost about 3 to 4 times more then a lead acid battery. Now with respect to regalia they are bundling a lousy 900watt inverter which doesn't cost more then 6k. All the other cost is going for the LifepO4 batteries. Or you could get a 2.5kva to 3.5kva luminous cruze for less then 10k and 15k and put 3x200ah to 4x 150AH c10 rated exide batteries respectively.

So in my case I will be using 150AH C10 rated batteries connected in series and my inverter self consumes only about 35watt and I have 4 fans running in the night, all of them BLDC, so thats another 120watt, assuming I set the fans to their max speed, 15watt for the router and another 30watt for charging phones and another 50watt to 60watt for the fridge. So to run all of this in the night I will need only 5amps from a 48v battery so that means its pulling amps at a C30 rate. The exide C10 150ah solar battery or EL150+ is heavier then 220ah C10 rated luminous batteries, So even at C20 rating the exide is atleast 180ah capacity.[/QUOTE]

My experience with Li-ion batteries has been through power tools.
These are 18V tools. Now they have even come up with 54V tools by rearranging the way cells are connected inside the battery pack. The best part about Li-ion is that it works at full rated power right till the end.
They do slow down as the voltages drop, I have a Bosch GDX 18V-EC impact driver it has 5 sanyo 18650 inside and as the volt drop the speed reduces, as does torque required to remove a car wheel bolt. With a LifepO4 you will not now until its dead, because of the flat curve. In my RC car the car stopped middle of the road because I was unable to notice the drop in power. I didn't have a wireless telemetry at that time.

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#### blr_p

##### Well-Known Member
Veteran
Luminous has refreshed the zelio range and its wifi enabled now. zelio 900VA and a 1500VA are available.

luminous model nos. are NOT an indication of capacity, the above are called 1100 & 1700 (!)

Wonder if the Cruze models will get a wifi enabled refresh too.

App looks good , has offline browsing so you can access this info from anywhere as the ups uploads data by the minute to luminous servers it seems. Smarteefi has this feature too and it can be helpful.

Notifications indicates when the power cut occurred but does not have a notification for when it resumes. Why ?

The app seems to be able to figure out water levels which has me curious. How does it do that.

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#### jsmithe

##### Well-Known Member
Disciple
Looking at luminous apps and i find one for zelio that uses wifi.
I'm not sure if you have the app, but if you do, did you manage to get it to work?

My experience with the app. so far gives me the impression that it is a POS hunk of junk. I am having a really difficult time getting the app. to work. Their customer care doesn't have the slightest idea about apps and from the few Google Play store reviews that appear to be from real users as opposed to employees / paid reviews it looks like I am not alone in running into difficulties with it.

The docs. and faq etc. are pathetically useless in this regard.

Also, the fit/finish of the inverter is crude unlike say APC products who now are owned by the same MNC that owns/has a stake in Luminous. Go figure.

The app seems to be able to figure out water levels which has me curious. How does it do that.

There are a pair of sensor connections at the rear that go out to the batteries. Note that you don't get the sensors that monitor battery DM water levels. They cost extra.

luminous model nos. are NOT an indication of capacity, the above are called 1100 & 1700 (!) .
That's something to definitely watch out for. The 1700 model for example has a Capacity of 1500 VA and Rated Power – 1260 W per their website. Shady marketing.

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#### blr_p

##### Well-Known Member
Veteran
I'm not sure if you have the app, but if you do, did you manage to get it to work?
Don't have the app or the model. Still in the market for a smart UPS

My experience with the app. so far gives me the impression that it is a POS hunk of junk. I am having a really difficult time getting the app. to work. Their customer care doesn't have the slightest idea about apps and from the few Google Play store reviews that appear to be from real users as opposed to employees / paid reviews it looks like I am not alone in running into difficulties with it.
Did you watch the video above ? at what step does it not work. Must be some silly config issue. Maybe we can figure it out. I had a crazy time with smarteefi unti we figured it out like an hour later with their support.

You DO have the wifi variant of Zelio i take it ?

Also, the fit/finish of the inverter is crude unlike say APC products who now are owned by the same MNC that owns/has a stake in Luminous. Go figure.
Yes not the prettiest

Also note that you don't get the sensors that monitor battery DM water levels. They cost extra.
Aha, so that's it. Worth it right

That's something to definitely watch out for. The 1700 model for example has a Capacity of 1500 VA and Rated Power – 1260 W per their website. Shady marketing.
Yes this is what i wanted to point out.

#### jsmithe

##### Well-Known Member
Disciple
Don't have the app or the model. Still in the market for a smart UPS
I'd suggest waiting for the Luminous app and their CS to mature wrt to their WiFi model and app. unless you want to buy and take a stab at getting things to work. My impression, is that the Zelio app. is not yet ready for prime time with regard to initial setup (eg. there are no manual input alternatives in case an automated setup (scan QR code, enter SMS OTP etc.) step fails, no means of changing setup info once you enter it eg. how do you change your WiFI password if you ever need to, the supposed login with Google/FB option does not work etc.). Poor quality documentation and customer support who are clueless doesn't help either.

VGuard apparently has a smart inverter and app. that offers more features and even controls the inverter but from the reviews it is an even worse POS. Sadly, not much choice wrt smart inverters yet.

Did you watch the video above ? at what step does it not work. Must be some silly config issue. Maybe we can figure it out. I had a crazy time with smarteefi unti we figured it out like an hour later with their support.
Yeah, I did watch the video before starting out and got to the step where I enter a phone number and wait for an SMS OTP to arrive from Luminous or wherever. I ran into the same problem that others report on the play store about not receiving the SMS OTP to register, which means I can't even proceed any further with the app until I put in the OTP that never arrives.

I contacted customer care and asked them to get their servers to send the damn OTP to register on the Zelio WiFi app and they don't have the slightest idea of what I am talking about. No logging, no debug mode available in the app. either. Guess, I'll have to retry every so often hoping that their SMS webservice suddenly starts working or their server reboots or whatever. Or perhaps try and MITM and see what the app. is doing (don't know if this is even possible, I am not an expert in this).

For now, I am going to escalate the complaints to their CC and see if I can get someone knowledgeable to work with me. So far no luck. Lot's of is what I get for being an early adopter. One of the hazards I guess that many of us here run into

You DO have the wifi variant of Zelio i take it ?
Yes I do.

Aha, so that's it. Worth it right
I don't know, yet, what it costs. The installer hadn't a clue about the sensors, having not installed a WiFi enabled inverter thus far. The manufacturers supposed CC will most likely not have the faintest idea about sensors and how to buy them.

I will probably have to find the distributor and see if they have any idea. Worth it if I can get the app. to work and then get the sensors and hopefully get the sensors to work (more than a few bridges to cross). For now I have to rely on visually inspecting those DM water indicators regularly and the old non app ways of monitoring power failures/resumes and estimate standby power consumption.

blr_p

#### 6pack

##### Well-Known Member
ex-Mod
That's something to definitely watch out for. The 1700 model for example has a Capacity of 1500 VA and Rated Power – 1260 W per their website. Shady marketing.
Not shady, you didn't grasp the difference between Volt Amperes and Watts.
They are calculating Watts with the efficiency here of the system. So it looks like its 84% efficient. (1260 x 100) / 1500 = 84.

To get full 1500 W, the entire system will need to be 100% efficient - from batteries to dc-ac conversion etc.

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#### jsmithe

##### Well-Known Member
Disciple
Not shady, you didn't grasp the difference between Volt Amperes and Watts.
They are calculating Watts with the efficiency here of the system. So it looks like its 84% efficient. (1260 x 100) / 1500 = 84.

To get full 1500 W, the entire system will need to be 100% efficient - from batteries to dc-ac conversion etc.
OK, creative marketing then. Labeling a model as Zelio 1700 even convinced several dealers that it is a 1700VA model until I dug out the website and showed them. Amazon, Flipkart and Mouthshut reviews among others are full of people complaining about being misled by Luminous.

I was already aware of the difference between VA and W and about PF, efficiencies etc. but thanks for the information, it will help someone else for sure who finds this page in a search.

##### Well-Known Member
Veteran
I am not sure how luminous can make sensor work, the batteries vent holes have various diameter and thread pitch, infact they deliberately change the design, so that once the vent cap/floats break you are forced to buy a new battery.

My guess is it is only designed to work with luminous model, mostly for non tall tubular batteries which need filling in 2 to 3 months. Since the tall tubular batteries needs to filled once in 6 to 10 months depending on the brand and model.

The parameters that would be helpful are the battery voltage, state of charge. Majority of the inverters out there show a really inaccurate state of charge(SOC), purely based on the battery voltage which changes depending on temperature and load.

Yesterday in bangalore the temperature dropped a lot, causing my batteries to have a high voltage reading(also showing full SOC). I had to use the windows terminal commands to lower the voltage, also used a hair dryer to warm the batteries, otherwise the voltage would have gone up dangerously, potentially causing the releases of gases after the drop in water. So the pros of keeping the battery near the window is the gases would escape, the cons is that the outside cold breeze will cause the battery voltage to rise.

Majority of the inverters don't compensate the battery voltage when temperture rises or drops and many don't even have a user adjustable voltage option.

In my new inverter I plan to add a peltier/fan in the battery box to maintain temperature, h2 sensor connected to fan to vent gases. When you think about it lithium looks so much more attractive now, alas they cost 4x more in india.

6pack

#### blr_p

##### Well-Known Member
Veteran
Not shady, you didn't grasp the difference between Volt Amperes and Watts.
They are calculating Watts with the efficiency here of the system. So it looks like its 84% efficient. (1260 x 100) / 1500 = 84.

To get full 1500 W, the entire system will need to be 100% efficient - from batteries to dc-ac conversion etc.

Here is the problem. It is a 1500VA model, but the model has the number 1700 at the end. Why 1700 ? wouldn't you assume it was a 1700 VA instead ?

That is the idea to make you think its slightly better than the competition with a bigger number

Same nonsense with the 900VA model they call it the 1100

#### blr_p

##### Well-Known Member
Veteran
I'd suggest waiting for the Luminous app and their CS to mature wrt to their WiFi model and app. unless you want to buy and take a stab at getting things to work. My impression, is that the Zelio app. is not yet ready for prime time with regard to initial setup (eg. there are no manual input alternatives in case an automated setup (scan QR code, enter SMS OTP etc.) step fails, no means of changing setup info once you enter it eg. how do you change your WiFI password if you ever need to, the supposed login with Google/FB option does not work etc.). Poor quality documentation and customer support who are clueless doesn't help either.
I have my eyes on the Regalia 1550. It isn't available yet still in field testing.

I thought of looking at the app dates for luminous apps and then noticed this one is dated September. The regalia one is dated January. No joy with that one either, keeps crashing apparently.

VGuard apparently has a smart inverter and app. that offers more features and even controls the inverter but from the reviews it is an even worse POS. Sadly, not much choice wrt smart inverters yet.
VGuard doesn't use wifi, its BT only which is a no go due to range. Must be wifi.

Yeah, I did watch the video before starting out and got to the step where I enter a phone number and wait for an SMS OTP to arrive from Luminous or wherever. I ran into the same problem that others report on the play store about not receiving the SMS OTP to register, which means I can't even proceed any further with the app until I put in the OTP that never arrives.
It means they haven't set up the OTP servers on their end as yet. CS hasn't been informed about this app.

I take it that you successfully got it to connect to your wifi before the OTP stage ?

I contacted customer care and asked them to get their servers to send the damn OTP to register on the Zelio WiFi app and they don't have the slightest idea of what I am talking about. No logging, no debug mode available in the app. either. Guess, I'll have to retry every so often hoping that their SMS webservice suddenly starts working or their server reboots or whatever. Or perhaps try and MITM and see what the app. is doing (don't know if this is even possible, I am not an expert in this).
It will start working at some point. I doubt you can do anything until then.

For now, I am going to escalate the complaints to their CC and see if I can get someone knowledgeable to work with me. So far no luck. Lot's of is what I get for being an early adopter. One of the hazards I guess that many of us here run into
I take it the luminous guy who came to install it was of no use ?

I don't know, yet, what it costs. The installer hadn't a clue about the sensors, having not installed a WiFi enabled inverter thus far. The manufacturers supposed CC will most likely not have the faintest idea about sensors and how to buy them.
Sukam had something similar with their falcon+ line it was supposed to adjust charging voltage depending on temperature.

I will probably have to find the distributor and see if they have any idea. Worth it if I can get the app. to work and then get the sensors and hopefully get the sensors to work (more than a few bridges to cross). For now I have to rely on visually inspecting those DM water indicators regularly and the old non app ways of monitoring power failures/resumes and estimate standby power consumption.
And here we are at the end of 2018 waiting for something more convenient

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#### rdst_1

##### Well-Known Member
Veteran
Yesterday in bangalore the temperature dropped a lot, causing my batteries to have a high voltage reading(also showing full SOC). I had to use the windows terminal commands to lower the voltage, also used a hair dryer to warm the batteries, otherwise the voltage would have gone up dangerously, potentially causing the releases of gases after the drop in water. So the pros of keeping the battery near the window is the gases would escape, the cons is that the outside cold breeze will cause the battery voltage to rise.
One would think that inverters would be able to take care of such basic issues. Have the companies been sleeping or are they wilfuly not providing such basic features so as to sell more batteries.
I have the opportunity to buy inverter from a local manufacturer. Can I get such features added. We got the charging current set to our own specs when we bought one for my friend who was planning to use it with a car battery.