Looking for a home UPS that is smart

Discussion in 'Consumer Electronics' started by blr_p, Jan 21, 2018.

  1. adder

    adder Well-Known Member
    Veteran

    You can see the back up chart from the flin model, that I posted (600w load is the closest reference for 500w load). I have had this debate inside my mind about the efficiency and the fact was that since the battery will be charged via solar only, it's irrelevant. You will only use the battery from evening till early morning and at night you would have discharged the battery until your predetermined SOC, the inverter would then switch to Mains bypass and power the load, you can either allow the AC to charge the battery or use solar only or combination of both to charge them. In Mains/bypass mode it consumes very little power. In day time it's going to powered by solar, so it doesn't really matter. Typically these inverters consume about 50w idle, my apc smart ups If I recollect correctly consumes around DC 1.6amps at 24v battery config, with zero load in battery mode and it consumes even more when it's in float charge with zero load.

    A lead acid battery takes a total charge as much as 150% of its AH capacity to charge it to full. So when it's charged via solar it's free but when it's charged via Ac then it will cost more each time there is a power cut and you use the battery.

    And that article is from 2006 and efficiency would have improved.

    Also if you go for a inverter with 500w rating, then it will mostly work on a single 12v battery, as you know more batteries in series= better efficiency.

    Having a high powered inverter means you can power up loads that have a high inrush current, like your water tank motor pump or even a regular 1 ton split ac. Not to mention that once you have solar, you may power On the Ac more often during day time, so extra power available will always help.
     
    #161 adder, Feb 5, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  2. Julian

    Julian om nom nom
    Veteran

    Not just off-grid, I also like the tiny house (minimalist living) concept.



    Another one, but really expensive (relatively):

     
  3. adder

    adder Well-Known Member
    Veteran

    There are some people in Bangalore outskirts who have built a farm house made from 3x 20 feet shipping containers and they look completely amazing on the inside. but they lacked insulation so it will be loud when it rains and also it will be like a oven. Plan to do that in my village , with complete off grid living( not the container part, since a single power tool like a angle grinder can cut through like butter)
     
    Julian likes this.
  4. Julian

    Julian om nom nom
    Veteran

    Jeez man, sometimes you almost forget which country you're living in.. :oops:
    --- Post Merged, Feb 6, 2019 ---
    Check this one out then. There's a little bit about the battery bank at 6:22

     
    #164 Julian, Feb 6, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2019
  5. OP
    OP
    blr_p

    blr_p Well-Known Member
    Veteran

    Suppose it depends on the pump. Check out the inrush current on my 0.5HP water pump :eek:

    After startup it runs around 4 Amps

    Can the 3kW Flin Fuzion handle just one pump like that ?
     

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    #165 blr_p, Feb 6, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2019
  6. adder

    adder Well-Known Member
    Veteran

    It should work fine, since the inrush is just for a second? Trying measuring it again without Inrush and see the amp draw relative to seconds.

    Mine 0.5hp motor is also a monoblock pump but when you say its consuming 4amps that's like 1.2hp?

    Edit: Yours is 1hp, so I guess it's correct since it says 6amps on the name plate. Yours also mentions the efficiency, but B.E.E india doesn't have a 1hp model listed with that high efficiency. Guess it's not BEE tested.

    The other day was looking at DC pumps and they are in a different league interms of efficiency.
     
    #166 adder, Feb 6, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2019
  7. OP
    OP
    blr_p

    blr_p Well-Known Member
    Veteran

    How about something like this :woot:

     
  8. adder

    adder Well-Known Member
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    ^If I was in another country with stupendous roads and trafic manners, even then I wouldn't get that. But since we live here, A regular full size Electric scooter with detachable battery that works with 44v to 58v battery voltage will be perfect. You could even use the scooter battery as a second bank for additional back up.
     
  9. OP
    OP
    blr_p

    blr_p Well-Known Member
    Veteran

    If you want safety on our roads, bigger wheel size is safer.

    Motorbike wheel diameter >> scooter wheel diameter :)
     
  10. OP
    OP
    blr_p

    blr_p Well-Known Member
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    Wanted to comment on this earlier, low temperatures is not a problem for lead acid. Well, we're not talking about freezing. If the cells read a higher voltage then that is a signal to the charger to shut off. It won't be fully charged but i don't see any more problem here if temperature drops.

    lead charging temperature.JPG
    Source

    High temperatures is the problem as then you need to reduce charging current. Otherwise there is a risk of over charging and then gassing.

    This makes me think the opposite of what you said. Lower temperatures are not a problem if the battery is stored outside. I'm exploring the possibility of keeping a pair of batteries outside in a metal bx in a shaded area. Outside takes care of venting issues. The only concern is the box will be in plain view from the main gate and the batteries could be stolen. Despite being inside a locked box attached to the wall.

    Exide Gel batteries make life easier as the venting requirement isn't there nor any maintenance required. 5-6yr life only i think. These can be kept indoors. Only go up to 150AH though.
     
    #170 blr_p, Feb 23, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019
  11. adder

    adder Well-Known Member
    Veteran

    The data log I saw in APC shows the internal temperature and battery voltage and they clearly had a much higher voltage raise compared to the picture above. A dedicated external charger will cut off the charge but a charger inside a ups or inverter will continue to charge to keep them in float and they have temperature sensors to prevent overcharge, atleast some do.
    Keeping the battery in metal box has many issues, if its exposed to direct sun then the temperature will be very high 70c to 80c, if two battery wires or terminal touch the case it will create a short. Keepthem outdoor means dust will clog the vent in the battery and will also make battery filling that much more work, with dust falling inside the water filling hole..

    Gel batteries perform badly with increasing temperature=capacity drop and if overcharged can release harmful gas.
     
  12. OP
    OP
    blr_p

    blr_p Well-Known Member
    Veteran

    And the float charge will still be lower than required if temperatures drop ? all that means is it takes longer

    No direct sun, it will be in the shade. The box will have an open back and bottom so chances of a short will be less. I suppose i could use wood but metal is stronger.

    Dust will certainly be an issue as i intended to keep at least a cm gap from the wall for the batteries to vent. This will be a gap all around the edge. The road is only twenty feet away so even more dust.

    I thought making the box twice as high as the batteries would be enough room for filling ? again no way to prevent dust entering the hole there.

    The alternative is to keep them in the staircase room and make venting. The size of the vents has to be calculated. But i want a passive system with no fan as that is yet another thing to break. Besides 12W is too much power draw for a duct fan. I have no idea how you make it come on and go off without still extra work

    The idea is a vent low down on the door to the staircase room. With a hole higher up in the wall having a vent cover on the other side. I don't even know if such an idea will even work :(

    I was even toying with the idea of getting a hydrogen detector for the room just to be safe. This would also confirm whether the vents were effective.

    Getting complicated and then i thought why don't i just stick the batteries outside.

    With Gel they can be kept inside. The overcharge is a problem though as it is less capable of handling it.

    How likely will chance of overcharge be though. There is no solar attached here just flin.
     
  13. adder

    adder Well-Known Member
    Veteran

    That depends on whether it has a temperature compensation with a temp probe placed on the battery.
    Otherwise you will have to adjust the voltage in the setting or by other means.

    I am building a wooden box of 16mm IS710 marine ply wood with the top and front being removable for filling and replacing batteries. It will have vents on the sides, one is for the intake with a dust filter on the left and one is for the exhaust on the right, which will be ducted to window outside. The translucent glass window pane in the stair case room was replaced with a translucent plastic/fiber glass or something similar. So that the vent cover can be fixed on that new window pane, basically the holes will be made in the new window pane for ac in/out, solar cables, vent. So no drilling into walls or doors or glass windows.
    For the fan there is AC 6watt fans which do the job with around 80+ cfm.

    I will putting a timer switch for the fan. Also looked at h2 sensors fan controller, but thats a risk if the sensor fan controller is inaccurate or fails. So there will be another fan in the window pane to vent out the heat coming from the inverter, especially in this ever increasing hot summers. It will also act as a back up fan for the battery box.

    The risk of overcharge is high even without solar, you can decrease the voltage but that will cause sulfation in the long run. A flooded c10 battery is the prefered choice. They also can handle upto .2c charge rate as per exide.
     
  14. Futureized

    Futureized Active Member
    Adept

    @blr_p bro not decided yet ?
     
  15. OP
    OP
    blr_p

    blr_p Well-Known Member
    Veteran

    Its a toss up between the flin & regalia. I'm exploring the flin option but there is extra work required with that option.
     
  16. rdst_1

    rdst_1 Well-Known Member
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    blr_p and adder like this.
  17. adder

    adder Well-Known Member
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    Haven't seen that in stores yet, I doubt a local dealer would stock it. The online store min order quantity is 5x5 or 25 liters.

    If it's pure demineralized water with out any traces of acid content, then I guess that 25L quantity can be used in my house 4+2 batteries, could also use them in car radiator with cast iron engine block, once every two years flush interval.
     
  18. OP
    OP
    blr_p

    blr_p Well-Known Member
    Veteran

    Been trying figure out the difference between demineralised & distilled and it really depends on the source & process.

    Trojan has a paper on this with a useful table detailing consequences of various impurities on battery positive and negative plates, recommends distilled as best.

    max allowed impurities.JPG

    What surprises me is that a TDS count up to 100 is acceptable ? (did i understand that right) so long as the impurity count is below max acceptable levels of the various chemicals & minerals.
     
    #178 blr_p, Mar 8, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
  19. adder

    adder Well-Known Member
    Veteran

    I seriously doubt anyone knowingly would add water with TDS of 100, but that 100 is the maximum allowable tds like a worst case option.

    In my house just with RO I can get 2 or 3 TDS reading, but till date haven't used RO water, I would only put water in battery if it reads zero, accompanied by visual inspection of suspended particles. Petrol bunk distill water always seems to have suspended particles.
    The exide water costs more, hope it has better quality control.
    --- Post Merged, Mar 9, 2019 ---
    @rdst_1 , @blr_p
    My dad got the exide distill water, I just asked him to check whether it was there in a nearby exide care shop, I should have told him about the ball park cost, he didn't bargain and bought it for 150.

    I took a reading and got Zero TDS, also passed my visual inspection, it was sealed but mrp and manufacturing date was blank.
     
    #179 adder, Mar 8, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2019
    blr_p likes this.
  20. OP
    OP
    blr_p

    blr_p Well-Known Member
    Veteran

    So is it good enough for batteries even though it is demineralised ?

    The price seems higher than what i saw in this video

    distil water price 1.jpg distil water price 2.jpg

    Rs.45 for 4.5l is half to a third the price of this exide water. Course it's from Cal so they have lower prices there i guess.

    Thing about his video is why isn't he refilling from the caps behind the floats and then using the floats to indicate when to stop. If you understand what i mean.

    This eyeballing, pulling the funnel out seems unnecessary. And those float caps don't look all that strong to begin with so i'd imagine they break with repeated opening and closing.

    I like the way this guy does a float check. Just shake the battery
     
    #180 blr_p, Mar 10, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019

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