PC Peripherals Need UPS with Future proofing

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I have a APC SUA1000UXI and my experience hasnt exactly been stellar. The external batteries usually lost their mojo every few months. I made sure that the battery was never deep cycled, but still the 'remaining time' as shown by apcupsd dropped sharply after few months.

All of that changed when I installed an inverter in the house. During a power cut the inverter gets kicked in first followed by the UPS. I am able keep months of computer uptime with this arrangement. So my 2 cents install both an inverter and an APC ups. I prefer APC because their software works very well and is supported on linux and BSD.

If the batteries are loosing charge in just a few months, then I am assuming you are using sealed batteries(no way a flooded battery would loose it capacity so fast). If you are then there is nothing you can do, other then to go for a flooded Tubular battery. Exide own white papers say that a sealed gel battery will loose its capacity/life by as much as 50%, even if its discharged once or twice to 100% discharged state .

In Smart UPS you can change the battery float voltage, by connecting it to the serial port. Usually the factory voltage is a tag higher, this increases in December when the temperature is really low, which causes the gel battery to expand and die or be damaged, in a flooded battery it will loose its water very frequently.

 

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I suppose it won't be higher than 800-900W, all things considered.

What does future proofing in the context of UPS mean for you then ?

 

[nRiTeCh]

Damn. I had heard APC might cause issues for Seasonic because it's not pure sine wave and power supply won't hold current long enough for UPS to kick in.

Have read this on numerous sites. Unless the ups is a smart one it possesses threat to smps and further to the whole system components. Glad my apc died before damaging my system and since then I dont use any ups as backup ups simply sucks be it any brand, unless you got inverter + backup ups connected to it.

And in India we still use outdated or low efficient models while in the US the scene is totally different be it apc or cyberpower.

Rather than wasting 15k in a single useless backup ups its preferable to invest the same amount into inverter + batteries = makes REAL sense.

 

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@blr_p - Have you bought an inverter yet.

Soon. The cruze 2kva is top of the list

Also, quick question, is it better to go for 1 higher rated inverter or 2-3 lower rated ones with each assigned to their specific jobs. I am guessing it is better to go for a higher rated one as it can handle the in-rush current better.

I'd prefer two smaller ones as it provides redundancy & separation.

I have my house and my animal shed separated by 100ft and I am hoping to buy just one high rated inverter (3.5-5kVA) and use it for both places. Motor being run wouldn't be more than 2HP.

Why don't you measure the inrush current to get a better idea, there are a couple of clamp meters you can get for this purpose. It could be the lower rated ones just can't handle the motor or maybe they can

 

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If the batteries are loosing charge in just a few months, then I am assuming you are using sealed batteries(no way a flooded battery would loose it capacity so fast). If you are then there is nothing you can do, other then to go for a flooded Tubular battery. Exide own white papers say that a sealed gel battery will loose its capacity/life by as much as 50%, even if its discharged once or twice to 100% discharged state .

In Smart UPS you can change the battery float voltage, by connecting it to the serial port. Usually the factory voltage is a tag higher, this increases in December when the temperature is really low, which causes the gel battery to expand and die or be damaged, in a flooded battery it will loose its water very frequently.

Am wondering how important it is for battery longevity to do a full discharge. Let's say if in regular use the battery is never depleted beyond 40% is a full discharge required at some regular interval or will it be ok

 

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I have a APC SUA1000UXI and my experience hasnt exactly been stellar. The external batteries usually lost their mojo every few months. I made sure that the battery was never deep cycled, but still the 'remaining time' as shown by apcupsd dropped sharply after few months.

All of that changed when I installed an inverter in the house. During a power cut the inverter gets kicked in first followed by the UPS. I am able keep months of computer uptime with this arrangement. So my 2 cents install both an inverter and an APC ups. I prefer APC because their software works very well and is supported on linux and BSD.

A few months only for sealed battery is too short. What brand of batteries are you using ?

 

[rajil.s]

If the batteries are loosing charge in just a few months, then I am assuming you are using sealed batteries(no way a flooded battery would loose it capacity so fast). If you are then there is nothing you can do, other then to go for a flooded Tubular battery. Exide own white papers say that a sealed gel battery will loose its capacity/life by as much as 50%, even if its discharged once or twice to 100% discharged state .

In Smart UPS you can change the battery float voltage, by connecting it to the serial port. Usually the factory voltage is a tag higher, this increases in December when the temperature is really low, which causes the gel battery to expand and die or be damaged, in a flooded battery it will loose its water very frequently.

Yes, i have tried sealed batteries from both APC and Exide. I wasnt sure whether SUA1000UXI has a big enough charger to charge lead acid tubular batteries. Are you aware of any documentation on this?

The online version of the UPS (SRC1KUXI) does provide an hardware switch on the UPS to change the charging current between 2 and 12Amps. I think this is a better choice than SUA100UXI and something i am planning to buy.

Unfortunately, the APC website only shows the picture of SRC1KI-IN which does not have these options.

 

[adder]

Am wondering how important it is for battery longevity to do a full discharge. Let's say if in regular use the battery is never depleted beyond 40% is a full discharge required at some regular interval or will it be ok

For lead acid battery doing a deep discharge will effect its life. So keep it at full charged state is better.
Battery A discharged to 50% for a few hundred cycle will have less life then a battery B discharged to just 20% for a few hundred cycle.

 

[adder]

Yes, i have tried sealed batteries from both APC and Exide. I wasnt sure whether SUA1000UXI has a big enough charger to charge lead acid tubular batteries. Are you aware of any documentation on this?

The online version of the UPS (SRC1KUXI) does provide an hardware switch on the UPS to change the charging current between 2 and 12Amps. I think this is a better choice than SUA100UXI and something i am planning to buy.

You won't destroy a high capacity lead acid battery with low amps, but you will destroy a low capacity battery with high amps.

The SUA1000UXI measure as high as 6amps but for the most part its around 5.6amp+ this is sufficient for even a pair of 80AH tall tubular batteries, there is no harm in putting even higher capacity battery but it will take for ever to charge, since in a Lead Acid battery let say you discharge the battery for 10amp for 1 hr, now if the onboard charger charges it at 10amp it will take about theoretically 1hr 30 min to charge it back.

So a lead acid battery takes more energy to get's its charge back( which is around 50% more energy). Can't wait when these batteries are replaced with Lithium titanate battery which have charge cycles of 5000 to 15000 cycles and the best part is that their per cell voltage is 2.4v similar to a fully charged lead acid cell(12v lead acid battery has 6 cells in series). Currently they are 3 to 4 times the cost of lead acid battery and is not available in India.


The newer made for india SUA1000uxi has a 15Amp charger, so that you can put several banks of their sealed lead acid battery or flooded batteries.

I see no point buying a online UPS since you already have a SUA series smart ups and a inverter. I know some people in this forum many years back who have connected 150ah batteries in their SUA1000UXI 5A charger version.

 

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For lead acid battery doing a deep discharge will effect its life. So keep it at full charged state is better.
Battery A discharged to 50% for a few hundred cycle will have less life then a battery B discharged to just 20% for a few hundred cycle.

Teaching myself about the chemistry of these batteries and the key is saturation charging. Not discharging. Question is how to ensure saturation charging

If power cuts are frequent, the battery will never attain full charge. 14-16h required for a full saturation. That is assuming the topping charge of inverter chargers actually do a proper saturation charge

Simple Guidelines for Extending Battery Life

• Allow a fully saturated charge of 14–16 hours. Charge in a well-ventilated area.
  
• Always keep lead acid charged. Avoid storage below 2.07V/cell or at a specific gravity level below 1.190.
  
• Avoid deep discharges. The deeper the discharge, the shorter the battery life will be. A brief charge on a 1–2 hour break during heavy use prolongs battery life.
  
• Never allow the electrolyte to drop below the tops of the plates. Exposed plates sulfate and become inactive. When low, add only enough water to cover the exposed plates before charging. Always fill to the correct level after charge.
  
• Never add acid. This would raise the specific gravity too high and cause excessive corrosion.
  
• Use distilled or de-ionized water. Tap water may be usable in some regions.
  
• When new, a deep-cycle battery may have a capacity of 70 percent or less. Formatting as part of field use will gradually increase performance. Apply a gentle load for the first five cycles to allow a new battery to format.
  
• New batteries with low capacity many not perform as well as those that begin life with a high capacity. Low performers are known to have a short life. A capacity check as part of acceptance is advisable.
  
• A start-stop battery typically has 25 percent more lead than a standard starter battery to attain a high cycle count. This is reflected in the corresponding price premium.

Water quality is another issue. It needs to be distilled. Have no idea how to ensure quality of the water that is purchased at a petrol booth

 

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Can't wait when these batteries are replaced with Lithium titanate battery which have charge cycles of 5000 to 15000 cycles and the best part is that their per cell voltage is 2.4v similar to a fully charged lead acid cell(12v lead acid battery has 6 cells in series). Currently they are 3 to 4 times the cost of lead acid battery and is not available in India.

Not titanate but are these any good ?

http://www.okayapower.com/lithium-batteries.php

 

[adder]

Lol, you can follow the battery maintenance to the book, if you have the time and patience, I have destroyed many clothes, stained the tiles doing things like checking the specific gravity.
I have made my batteries last quite a lot of years with just few basic things like monitoring the voltage very often, battery temperature and off course rarely do I deep discharge it and always fill the water on time, I do check the specific gravity to see the life of my battery once a year during my annual sulfation charge but I can't to anything more then that. That's good enough for a half a decade to a decade of battery .

 

[adder]

Not titanate but are these any good ?

http://www.okayapower.com/lithium-batteries.php

I have had piss poor results with Lithium Iron phostate batteries, all of them gassed or PUFFED due to poor quality control of the manufacturer, in my case I am talking about hobby RC batteries.
Okaya is just re badging Chinese batteries, for these batteries only long term tests can tell whether its good. I have wasted around $300 worth of LiFePO 4 battery and all of them went Puff in 1 year.
On the other hand my good old Lithium Ion based batteries in 18650 format I mainly use Sony and Sanyo which have lasted years(same battery tech used in good power banks, laptops,power tools and Tesla cars).

Indian companies as of today have zero capability to manufacture any type of lithium batteries.

 

[rajil.s]

You won't destroy a high capacity lead acid battery with low amps, but you will destroy a low capacity battery with high amps.

The SUA1000UXI measure as high as 6amps but for the most part its around 5.6amp+ this is sufficient for even a pair of 80AH tall tubular batteries, there is no harm in putting even higher capacity battery but it will take for ever to charge, since in a Lead Acid battery let say you discharge the battery for 10amp for 1 hr, now if the onboard charger charges it at 10amp it will take about theoretically 1hr 30 min to charge it back.

So a lead acid battery takes more energy to get's its charge back( which is around 50% more energy). Can't wait when these batteries are replaced with Lithium titanate battery which have charge cycles of 5000 to 15000 cycles and the best part is that their per cell voltage is 2.4v similar to a fully charged lead acid cell(12v lead acid battery has 6 cells in series). Currently they are 3 to 4 times the cost of lead acid battery and is not available in India.


The newer made for india SUA1000uxi has a 15Amp charger, so that you can put several banks of their sealed lead acid battery or flooded batteries.

I see no point buying a online UPS since you already have a SUA series smart ups and a inverter. I know some people in this forum many years back who have connected 150ah batteries in their SUA1000UXI 5A charger version.

Thanks I wasn't aware of the 15A version of SUA1000UXI. Is that the only difference between 5A and 15A models or have they removed the IEC sockets as well? Since it is a fixed current charger (maybe trickle charge too) what external batteries should be used with this.

I am not sure whether it is safe to put the flooded batteries inside the house. At the moment my inverter battery sits in the porch which is well ventilated. The room with UPS is not that well ventilated (insulated due to AC). Where do you keep your batteries?

The 15A version is certainly more economical than the online version. The latter sells for ~21K. I hope that the online model is able to take the inverter output.

 

[Mr.J]

Have read this on numerous sites. Unless the ups is a smart one it possesses threat to smps and further to the whole system components. Glad my apc died before damaging my system and since then I dont use any ups as backup ups simply sucks be it any brand, unless you got inverter + backup ups connected to it.

And in India we still use outdated or low efficient models while in the US the scene is totally different be it apc or cyberpower.

Rather than wasting 15k in a single useless backup ups its preferable to invest the same amount into inverter + batteries = makes REAL sense.

The thing is that there's a line-up of UPS, called 'Smart', from APC which are pure sine wave and APC recommends them for high-end rigs. I just had a call with their tech support this afternoon.
Those UPS are rather expensive though.

 

[adder]

They still have IEC sockets. The apc charger is a two stage charger, where in the SUA1000uxi case it gives max of 6amps and it measure the voltage constantly by shutting down the output charge voltage for a brief few milli second and once the voltage reach the set factory voltage its starts to ramp down the amps linearly, till it reaches trickle charge. Atleast that was the case with the 5A version. Not sure how the 15A version does.

Y0u can easily add 80AH tall tubular batteries with 5A version and even 180ah batteries in 15a version.

Mine is in a corner of the hall, in a EX-subwoofer enclosure that I made when I was in my teen, my hall is very well ventilated.

FYI the UPS powers the entire floor, with both the live and neutral separated from the heating circuit of my house in the MCB DB box. Since apc UPS have a closed neutral(if you measure in a multimeter you will get reading in the neutral ) you will need to isolate the neutral output and input.

 

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I have made my batteries last quite a lot of years with just few basic things like monitoring the voltage very often, battery temperature and off course rarely do I deep discharge it and always fill the water on time, I do check the specific gravity to see the life of my battery once a year during my annual sulfation charge but I can't to anything more then that. That's good enough for a half a decade to a decade of battery .

Which charger do you use for desulfation ?

Is desulfation required for an inverter battery that is regularly topped up by the inverter

 

[adder]

Its a hobby charger called Junsi Icharger 208B. Its a overkill for your application. I bought that charger because I have a ton of lithium polymer,Li-on batteries for my RC cars, planes,multirotor,dozens of my flashlights collection. In fact I bought them in 2009 2 years before I bought any UPS lead acid batteries.

In my case the apc charger is only a 2 stage, hence I desuphation manually. My neighboring bank never did any desulphation yet there 10 or more Exide EL+ was replaced at about 8 year mark.
Desulphation isn't required for the vast majority, its is however required if you run a Solar off grid system or if you have daily power cuts.

 

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Best i can tell with the cruze inverter is that it is 3 stage. At 22.5kg its heavy so the transformer should be adequate

 

[rdst_1]

Best i can tell with the cruze inverter is that it is 3 stage. At 22.5kg its heavy so the transformer should be adequate

Which is why I was a bit confused as to why you were leaning towards Luminous inverters.
Sukam offer six stage charging on all it's offerings (which includes desulphation and equalization) which is what you would see on good quality battery chargers like Bosch C7 and the likes.

For someone like me, whose majority usage will be for long hours but only a couple of times a month, charging the batteries properly seems to be very necessary as they will be facing deep discharge whenever they are used.
However, Sukam doesn't seem to be providing any service in my area whereas Luminous seem to have a service centre close by.

I think I might follow your advice and go for multiple smaller rated inverters as I will be able to find service much more easily for them as well as have redundancy so if one of the units were to need repair, my work wouldn't suffer because I could use one of the other units. I am trying not to have to buy a generator for emergencies as the loads are not that high and can be easily handled by an inverter.