Net Neutrality in Danger! We should do something about this

Average of 7 ISP's per circle fair enough for you ? elsewhere its like 4.
How will it matter if they all adopt similar practicies (read: cartelisation)

What's wrong with the current situation ?
It is where the situation is HEADING that's the problem.
-rates MAY drop but you will get spammed like crazy.
-your private info WILL be sold (read: verizon's zombie cookies)

Show me where this is defined in law.
The ground through which the cable is laid is public property as are the airwaves used to transmit wireless data (read: spectrum being auctioned)

Go read the comments as to the uncertainty involved by govt policy. What Modi is claiming on his trips abroad to foreign investors to attract more investment.
My point was in reference to EXISTING investments made, not future investments. If there is policy uncertainty then don't invest - nobody is forcing them to spend more on laying new cables. In fact the whole 'no regulation' argument is at odds with not having a clear policy - both are intrinsic to each other.

please read the comments and the consultation paper(s) to know the picture.
I can understand that you are against government intervention which is a fair point in many situations but here, we have to choose between corporate greed or bureaucratic ineptitude.
remember how airlines jacked up prices when kingfisher got grounded? The DGCA hauled them up and made sure it didn't happen again.

p.s. the consultation paper links don't seem to be working. have they taken them down?
 
Last edited:
The closing date for comments on the consultation paper is May 8 2015. There are no comments submitted by anybody yet.

The Internet is under threat in India as telecom operators have gone to the TRAI to allow them to block apps and websites and charge money from both consumers and businesses to the detriment of users.
can anyone substantiate that statement ?

In over eight years i can say airtel has not blocked me form anything. The govt ? well that's different.
 
Last edited:
How will it matter if they all adopt similar practicies (read: cartelisation)
In mobile space 7 is bad, as it is indian operators get very little bandiwth compared to their counterparts abroad.

cartel i've come to learn isn't the right word here at all. The govt is the biggest thug on the block and says pay me, and then the cost is passed on to us.

It is where the situation is HEADING that's the problem.
-rates MAY drop but you will get spammed like crazy.
-your private info WILL be sold (read: verizon's zombie cookies)
how do you know where things are heading ? i can tell you things are not moving very fast. if NN comes into being i guarantee more of the same.

The ground through which the cable is laid is public property as are the airwaves used to transmit wireless data (read: spectrum being auctioned)
So if you lay your own cable, how is it a public good ? To lay that cable you have already paid right of way fees which btw can be steep, arbitrary and vary hugely across the country and paid the material and installation costs from your own pocket. In fact by not allowing existing laid cable to be used or shared it increased the cost for customer and private company. This is know as unbundling. which in india we have never done. Why ? ask the govt.

My point was in reference to EXISTING investments made, not future investments. If there is policy uncertainty then don't invest - nobody is forcing them to spend more on laying new cables.
existing investments are a sunk cost. The real thing to worry about is future investments. what can the govt do to enable ISPs to improve service and address the issues raised by ISP's. See airtels recommends to the govt. Its quite a sobering read. Find out what your own ISP says about it.

In fact the whole 'no regulation' argument is at odds with not having a clear policy - both are intrinsic to each other.
Clear policy that enables and encourages private actors to invest in the internet is critical. I would be hammering the govt and holding their feet to the fire. What does digital india mean. What are you doing to make it a reality. Provide the right environment and let the market do the rest or better still partner with it.

I can understand that you are against government intervention which is a fair point in many situations but here, we have to choose between corporate greed or bureaucratic ineptitude.
What i am against is going after the telcos but letting the biggest culprits off scot free. I am asking people to take into consideration the issues being raised by the telcos.

Do companies get a say in this or not ? beause what i sense is a hostile environment where its only what people want and the telcos well they are just the bad guys. I find this an immature attitude.

Where you see corporate greed i see a struggle for survival. It ain't easy being a telco in this country. The govt shakes you at regular intervals and your customers think you are a crook.

remember how airlines jacked up prices when kingfisher got grounded? The DGCA hauled them up and made sure it didn't happen again.

p.s. the consultation paper links don't seem to be working. have they taken them down?
aviation fuel prices has no role there ? i recall them being high for the last five years.

links are there.

24/09/2014 Consultation Paper on Delivering Broadband Quickly: What do we need to do? (see the comments section, companies as well as individuals or consumer group replies)

27/03/2015 Consultation Paper on Regulatory Framework for Over-the-top (OTT) services

The first paper had some data on how BSNl lost half their landline broaband customers since 2008. Where did they go ? a few went to private operators. Some discontinued others went to cable (cheaper) and others mobile.

ADSL is hobbled because it cant get a signal out very far. so customers are limited. cable otoh can get a signal further out, more customers, cheaper bills. BUT cable is a shared medium, if your line gets crowded your speed drops at peak rates. This does not happen with ADSL. So i can see ADSL becoming more expensive over time. whereas cable will be cheaper. why will companies spend to roll out adsl in this situation.
 
Last edited:

Couple of points stick out in this video and i'd like to know the sources.

rajiv makhni 'in house tech expert' at 02.23
- states NN exists from the beginning ? no, if it did there would be no fuss. It does not exist. How come ISPs did not start messing with it.

2:49 to get a video you may have to pay ten times the rate. for a conference call 5x the rate, your bill will have different headers with all sorts of rates in it. heh, where did he get these figures from.

question ? if its going to become more expensive, much more it seems then what does that do to customers ? they run away. where are the profits ? falling through the floor. You've just lost your business. this is not a viable model. they cant get the internet to take off the way we want without NN as it is.

07:40 in December, airtel charging you extra for whatsapp and censoring you if you did not pay for whatsapp ?

huh ? really.

cos what i understood was if all you wanted was whatsapp then you could get a cheaper deal with just whatsapp and nothing more. if you went with a regular deal you could do everything else like always, including whatsapp. nothing was blocked or censored.

So anyone want to give me answers before i slam this as a lies and disinformation campaign ? it runs on fear. fear is contagious. never gets exhausted.

the same crap is going on with the land acquitision bill.
 
Last edited:
The govt is the biggest thug on the block and says pay me, and then the cost is passed on to us.
The money goes to the govt. NOT bsnl and is spent accordingly.

if NN comes into being i guarantee more of the same.
how do you know where things are heading ?

To lay that cable you have already paid right of way fees which btw can be steep, arbitrary and vary hugely across the country and paid the material and installation costs from your own pocket. In fact by not allowing existing laid cable to be used or shared it increased the cost for customer and private company. This is know as unbundling. which in india we have never done. Why ?
Right of way fees are like rental charges - there is NO transfer of ownership - you don't seem to be able to grasp the concept that renting and buying are different.
As to why unbundling has not happened because the PSU's will NOT be reimbursed for their expenditure to do so AND they would have to provide access at BELOW market rates.

existing investments are a sunk cost.
That just means it has no resale value, not that its a loss making expense.

Provide the right environment and let the market do the rest or better still partner with it.
Provide the right environment how? click your heels and say "there's no place like home"? regulation is how it's always been done.

Where you see corporate greed i see a struggle for survival. It ain't easy being a telco in this country.
You're right - being the 8th richest man in the country must suck - poor guy couldn't even crack the top 5.

aviation fuel prices has no role there ? i recall them being high for the last five years.
As were crude oil prices at the time - what's your point?

why will companies spend to roll out adsl in this situation.
It seems that the rising cost of ADSL is to do with the nature of the technology rather than the 'environment'. Again, nobody is forcing them to invest.

states NN exists from the beginning ? no, if it did there would be no fuss. It does not exist. How come ISPs did not start messing with it.
Net neutrality is simple - treat all data the same. You keep missing this point for some reason. Data was not discriminated until recently (remember comcast throttling p2p traffic) , however, it is GOING to be. It's commercially feasible now and there weren't any apps like whatsapp etc to discriminate against.

if its going to become more expensive, much more it seems then what does that do to customers ? they run away.
What if they ALL jack up their prices?

So anyone want to give me answers before i slam this as a lies and disinformation campaign ?
Oh dear me no! what shall we ever do :wideyed:
 
Average of 7 ISP's per circle fair enough for you ? elsewhere its like 4.


What's wrong with the current situation ? read the consultation papers referred above. how much the govt is responsible.


Show me where this is defined in law.


Go read the comments as to the uncertainty involved by govt policy. What Modi is claiming on his trips abroad to foreign investors to attract more investment.


please read the comments and the consultation paper(s) to know the picture.

I need a thumbs down button.
 
how do you know where things are heading ?
add barriers you discourage investment. Liberalisation since the 90s worked to undo the onerous regulations we erected since independence. QED.

Right of way fees are like rental charges - there is NO transfer of ownership - you don't seem to be able to grasp the concept that renting and buying are different.
Once those fees are paid how is it public ?

As to why unbundling has not happened because the PSU's will NOT be reimbursed for their expenditure to do so AND they would have to provide access at BELOW market rates.
how did it happen in other countries then ?

That just means it has no resale value, not that its a loss making expense.
They discontinue service where its no longer viable.

Provide the right environment how? click your heels and say "there's no place like home"? regulation is how it's always been done.
Don't increase regulations.

As were crude oil prices at the time - what's your point?
Inflation ?

Net neutrality is simple - treat all data the same. You keep missing this point for some reason. Data was not discriminated until recently (remember comcast throttling p2p traffic) , however, it is GOING to be. It's commercially feasible now and there weren't any apps like whatsapp etc to discriminate against.
Why will they throttle or prevent users from using any apps they want so long as they pay. We are dealing with a price sensitive market here. Increase prices drives away potential customers. If anything the challenge is to find more affordable ways to handle demand. The only way to do that is to increase supply. And to do so incentives have to be provided. This is something India never really understood until quite late. it was always about curbing demand. Scarcity over abundance.

There is no net neutrality. Protocols don't allow it. Any type of data packet has prirority levels. You're not guaranteed anything on the internet. Your packet might get across in a few seconds it could take much longer, It works on a best effort basis.

What if they ALL jack up their prices?
Then they will be fighting each other on an ever decreasing pie. Dumb.

Check your ISP bills over ht elast ten years. Didn't your speeds improve. The idea is to allow that to continue not erect barriers.

Otherwise exactly what you said might happen. There are so many customers that high prices are used to temper demand. Because supply isn't increasing. You see this in education already. can't get into that college because the competition is so high. Higher marks required to get in.

Oh dear me no! what shall we ever do :wideyed:
Call NN out for what it is. A bunch of lies and misinformation on the back of fear mongering.

At the end of this consultation there will be recommendations. When they will be implemented remains to be seen. What is implemented or not. My guess is things will continue as is. That is to say none of this NN BS will be applied.[DOUBLEPOST=1429142369][/DOUBLEPOST]
I need a thumbs down button.
slogans are easy, education is harder.[DOUBLEPOST=1429142751][/DOUBLEPOST]Finally, a better discussion on the topic. no pandering to these NN types.

 
Last edited:
Liberalisation since the 90s worked to undo the onerous regulations we erected since independence.
Liberalisation was the removal of restrictions on currency exchange and allowing the rupee's value to be market determined. this was necessitated by our dire need of finance as the country was on the verge of bankruptcy. the removal of trade barriers was a requirement of the the imf.

add barriers you discourage investment.
Thats what these telcos are doing to startups - what brings more value to the country; a small startup or more income tax from a board of directors.
Will you let a petrol bunk charge you more if your going to drive on the highway? why are you okay with these guys doing it?

Liberalisation since the 90s worked to undo the onerous regulations we erected since independence.
Again you're not very clear on what the economy was like at the time of independence - it was known as import substitution and was done to develop domestic industry which was in a very very bad way. Where do you think the big industrial families came from?

Once those fees are paid how is it public ?
So you're saying once i pay the rent the house is mine?

how did it happen in other countries then ?
They obviously came to more agreeable terms rather than a "give me access to all your customers for free" deal.

They discontinue service where its no longer viable.
Then they got their market research wrong if it's "no longer viable". bad management is not my problem.

Then they will be fighting each other on an ever decreasing pie. Dumb.
You mean to say that people will decide to forgo ALL internet access if the prices are too high? Very apt that you used the word 'dumb'.

Check your ISP bills over ht elast ten years. Didn't your speeds improve.
As did the bill amount - customer service and reliability took a nose-dive; how do you explain that? Were the 4 richest country in the world but 122 when it comes to internet connectivity - it has gone wrong and it wont do to ignore these facts.

There are so many customers that high prices are used to temper demand
Airline tickets go up in price as demand increases but do local buses up the prices when it gets crowded? there is difference between the NEED of the two. people don't NEED to fly but they do NEED the bus to get to work. The internet is not a product and certainly not one being provided by a telco so similar tactics should not be used as it is essential to national growth.

Don't increase regulations.
You keep saying this again and again- do you have a solution that you can prove that works? there are numerous example where regulation has been a great boon to an industry AND consumers. the example you cited is quite bad; economic liberalisation is not the removal of regulation but the removal of trade barriers - rules concerning such trade interaction are still in place and in most cases new ones come up.

Inflation ?
What has this got to do with the DGCA and how it regulates the aviation industry?

slogans are easy, education is harder.
Practice what you preach. All your arguments stem from either misinformation or ignoring facts. In fact i think it's you that's running a campaign of fear mongering.
 
Liberalisation was the removal of restrictions on currency exchange and allowing the rupee's value to be market determined. this was necessitated by our dire need of finance as the country was on the verge of bankruptcy. the removal of trade barriers was a requirement of the the imf.
Yes but how about allowing competition in the market etc etc. All those private companies that started up. ie by products of said policy.

Thats what these telcos are doing to startups - what brings more value to the country; a small startup or more income tax from a board of directors.
Will you let a petrol bunk charge you more if your going to drive on the highway? why are you okay with these guys doing it?
oh pray tell how did all those silicon valley startups get going in the 90s then.

Again you're not very clear on what the economy was like at the time of independence - it was known as import substitution and was done to develop domestic industry which was in a very very bad way. Where do you think the big industrial families came from?
Big industrial families were a holdover from the raj. They did well. after independence things were not so bad, it went nuts in the 60s & 70s.

So you're saying once i pay the rent the house is mine?
You bough the cable, you paid to have it installed, you paid the right of way, the cable is yours to do as you please.

I heard the argument that if you use a public gateway then this public argument applies. So companies have their own gateways. Don't have to peer with NIXI if you don't want to or rather can afford not to.

They obviously came to more agreeable terms rather than a "give me access to all your customers for free" deal.
I'm asking why we could not do it. I knew this back in 2006. has the situation changed since ? no.

Then they got their market research wrong if it's "no longer viable". bad management is not my problem.
sunk cost as i said. customer churn. write it off. i'm not asking for a bail out for that.

You mean to say that people will decide to forgo ALL internet access if the prices are too high? Very apt that you used the word 'dumb'.
If it costs more people will use less. What is so hard to grasp there. Increasing costs lead to decrease in consumption. One reason you wont see a consumption boost in india due to lower oil prices is they are slowly doing away with subsidies.

From what i've seen they want to charge extra that is on top of basic data packs to use voice apps. Are people going to be as cavalier with usage of said apps now ? no. They will use less.

Does this lead to more profit ? nobody knows but somebody is going to try and find out.

As did the bill amount - customer service and reliability took a nose-dive; how do you explain that? Were the 4 richest country in the world but 122 when it comes to internet connectivity - it has gone wrong and it wont do to ignore these facts.
but how much data did you get for the price. The price went up so did the speed, in the end you had much more. Your consumption pattern increased because the price was worth it.

122 in terms of internet connectivity because of policies chosen and things not done. ie unbundling, and more. Did you read airtels reply that i linked. There are similar stories in there for other ISPs.

Airline tickets go up in price as demand increases but do local buses up the prices when it gets crowded? there is difference between the NEED of the two. people don't NEED to fly but they do NEED the bus to get to work. The internet is not a product and certainly not one being provided by a telco so similar tactics should not be used as it is essential to national growth.
Your analogy is a public vs private wherein public does not get to avoid routes which are unprofitable that private can do.

You are making the argument that internet is a right. Show me where that applies in India.

You keep saying this again and again- do you have a solution that you can prove that works? there are numerous example where regulation has been a great boon to an industry AND consumers. the example you cited is quite bad; economic liberalisation is not the removal of regulation but the removal of trade barriers - rules concerning such trade interaction are still in place and in most cases new ones come up.
Look for a youtube video on the economics of net neutrality. In there the case was made that cable in the US was not regulated as ADSL was and consequently spread a great deal faster.

restrictions, permissions, regulation. there are differences but the net result is the same only difference is degree.

Practice what you preach. All your arguments stem from either misinformation or ignoring facts. In fact i think it's you that's running a campaign of fear mongering.
Show me the facts i've ignored ? whereas i've pointed out holes wherever i've seen them.

its very simple, govts always seek to regulate and grow fat, if you want to maintain and protect freedoms then you have to fight it.

when they loosen up , people cry corruption. Am so fed up with that word.

Then they tighten up. then people say cartel. You make things difficult for business they pass the cost on to you or it becomes unavailable.
 
Last edited:
Objective is to get you not to read the paper. Why ? how about submitting a proper reply to the questions. As anybody is free to do. In the end its the govt that takes a call. all TRAI can do is make a recommendation.

Read it, and the earlier one as well. Including the replies of the telcos. if you want to get a picture that is far richer than you can ever get in a forum.

In addition it would help if people ACTUALLY familiarised themselves with what TRAI does and has done. But that takes effort. if you are one of thos TL;DR types then you are at a disadvantage.
 
You bough the cable, you paid to have it installed, you paid the right of way, the cable is yours to do as you please.
No sir. The cable & other equipment still belongs to service provider. You are only allowed to use it only for the sole purpose that is mentioned in the agreement. They day you terminate the connection, they take back their cable back.
And how does your example compare to public resources like spectrum & coal blocks?

I'm asking why we could not do it. I knew this back in 2006. has the situation changed since ? no.
Go complain the govt. for their policies just like we are trying to do about net neutrality.

If it costs more people will use less. What is so hard to grasp there. Increasing costs lead to decrease in consumption. One reason you wont see a consumption boost in india due to lower oil prices is they are slowly doing away with subsidies.
Again no. As the internet penetration grows, and more content i put, the consumption will grow. Internet is an essential commodity which cannot be regulated by increasing costs.

From what i've seen they want to charge extra that is on top of basic data packs to use voice apps. Are people going to be as cavalier with usage of said apps now ? no. They will use less.
They won't. In 2011, data packs used to cost around Rs. 50-100 per GB. Now it is 175-250 per GB. Have people started to use (let's say) 500MB per month instead of 1GB per month? The consumption remains same.
Does this lead to more profit ? nobody knows but somebody is going to try and find out.
If not, why the telecom operators are adamant to do so? Their managers and accountants are stupid?

but how much data did you get for the price. The price went up so did the speed, in the end you had much more. Your consumption pattern increased because the price was worth it.
If you are talking about broadband, then no the speeds have not gone up. BSNL still has the same plans was 7-8 years ago. Even they earlier used to have night unlimited on some packs, which they pulled off. Airtel tariffs have hardly improved. (Only Bangalore, Hyderabad & Chennai guys are lucky to have ACT).

In case of 2G, its speeds have become pathetic & miserable to the point of being unusable in comparison to what it was a couple of years ago, despite the insane increase in tariff, as per my experience.

I won't comment on 3G as it is too expensive to my requirements.


122 in terms of internet connectivity because of policies chosen and things not done. ie unbundling, and more. Did you read airtels reply that i linked. There are similar stories in there for other ISPs.
Before crying out loud for unbundling (which BTW has nothing to do with the matter of this thread), why don't you look what quality of service vs price, craptel is providing in cities where it has its own last mile connectivity. And how it has given up on cities like Bangalore & Chennai due to ACT & Beam. Don't you think they'll try every hook & crook to destroy these small players?

Your analogy is a public vs private wherein public does not get to avoid routes which are unprofitable that private can do.
Which is true by the fact. Again, go complain the govt. on why they're running such companies at loss.

You are making the argument that internet is a right. Show me where that applies in India.
It should be. Or do you want this also to be rich-exclusive like education & healthcare?
 
Last edited:
There is no net neutrality. Protocols don't allow it. Any type of data packet has prirority levels. You're not guaranteed anything on the internet. Your packet might get across in a few seconds it could take much longer, It works on a best effort basis.

The keyword here being "best effort basis" meaning that the operator is not deliberately putting in or abusing existing mechanisms to interfere with the process based on factors that have nothing to with the terms of service between the operator and the client. That best effort basis is the guiding principle of net neutrality.

Service providers can already buy bandwidth based on their requirements. the operator is not going to let them use beyond that and he does have mechanisms to ensure that, but then, that is exactly the nature of the arrangement between the two. But if the operator were to use those mechanisms to decrease his quality of service for this service provider because his competitor is ready to pay more and this provider is not, then that is a violation of neutrality. Let the other guy buy more bandwidth if they have extra money and get the ability to transfer more bytes at a time, but the best effort basis should remain in both cases.

If I have to give an analogy, Lets say 3 people go to a Govt office to get the same work done. Lets say there is an associated fee of Rs 500 and it takes 1 week for the work to get done and all 3 pay the fee to get it done. Lets only say the officer asks for a bribe of 10k in order for him to do the work promptly within 1 week. The first guy pays 10k and his work gets done in 1 week. the second guy says that he can only pay 5k, so the officer says that he will do it, but he will take 1 month. The third guy says cannot afford any extra bribe on top of the stipulate fee. So the officer gets angry and says that he will not do the work at all or that he have to wait 2 years for the work to get done.

What is wrong with above? He is an officer who has the authority to do that work. There is a designated fee to do it and there is a expected time frame. But, just because he has control over the process, would it be aright to charge an extra fee on top of the actual fee that is required to do the job? If you think that its the cost for prioritizing his job, notice how the process would still take 1 week for the guy who paid 10k. Basically he is charging extra for the person to get the privilege of the process going as it should have normally and to differentiate the rest, he is degrading the quality of service for them.

Neutrality principles simply say the officer should not have taken any extra bribe and put in his best efforts equally for all 3 people who have paid the designated fee. In the end if it takes 1 week two complete the work for the first two people and 10 days for the third, it is still fine, because the delay is despite his best efforts and not because he has deliberately sabotaged the process.
 
No sir. The cable & other equipment still belongs to service provider. You are only allowed to use it only for the sole purpose that is mentioned in the agreement. They day you terminate the connection, they take back their cable back.
And how does your example compare to public resources like spectrum & coal blocks?
huh ? an ISP is the one being referred to here. If public lines could be leased out the story would be different ie unbundling. But that is not the case so ISP lay their own cables and therefore gets to say what goes on on their network.

Spectrum is leased, to different operators who can offer whatever services they choose to or not during the period of the lease.

Show me otherwise. You are the one asserting public this or that. not my job to prove negatives. yours is to make the point.

put it another way, if i were to make the same 'public argument' as you i'm unsure of being able to adequately defend it. So give me more.

Go complain the govt. for their policies just like we are trying to do about net neutrality.
i'm suggesting if you care so much about the internet YOU should be doing what i advocated instead. But you dont care. all you will whine about is rising prices and say cartel failing to understand the causes behind. This is the ISP's problem, let them do the lobbying. When they do that you say corrupt. So they pass on the cost to you. got it now ?

Again no. As the internet penetration grows, and more content i put, the consumption will grow. Internet is an essential commodity which cannot be regulated by increasing costs.
Whether it can be regulated or not remains to be seen. The govt is very intent on doing just that. They just haven't figured out how to do so yet. This is one attempt in that direction. Telco says i want to charge for services a and b and i think i can make a profit. Govt says whats my cut. Only so good as long as people are willing to pay.

Another reply is ours is a price sensitive market.

They won't. In 2011, data packs used to cost around Rs. 50-100 per GB. Now it is 175-250 per GB. Have people started to use (let's say) 500MB per month instead of 1GB per month? The consumption remains same.
Exactly. The reason consumption has increased is more people have joined the network. Now so long as that continues then profits can be made but you are not getting repeat customers just new ones. My behaviour over the last few months is a good example. I doubt you or anybody else would be different. You will figure out eventually what the cheapest way to perate is and if its not possible then you will not use it. And rely on alternatives instead. That is a net loss in the medium to long term.

If not, why the telecom operators are adamant to do so? Their managers and accountants are stupid?
why did airtel start to charge for whatsapp AND then withdraw it. Two inexplicable actions.

See the T&c's mentioned by swatkat and then click the link to airtels page. They ain't there any more. where did they go ?

If you are talking about broadband, then no the speeds have not gone up. BSNL still has the same plans was 7-8 years ago. Even they earlier used to have night unlimited on some packs, which they pulled off. Airtel tariffs have hardly improved. (Only Bangalore, Hyderabad & Chennai guys are lucky to have ACT).
Because minimum speed to qualify as broadband has not moved much in that time. There is a push to make it 2Mb/s. I was referring to my journey from 48kbs to 256kbs then 512 and eventually to 2Mbs and presently 10Mbs. course i never see those high speeds any my average is around 4Mbs.

The problem with ACT is reliability for me. They are cheaper because their cables go through trees. airtels is an armoured underground cable. ACT always boast about their prices but when i spoke to a manager and asked are your cables underground or over peoples houses. no answer. my cable tv goes out on a regular basis. Lucky i don't watch much tv.

Also ADSL isn't a shared medium. Your speeds are more likely to remain stable compared to a highly subscribed cable service. I would pay extra for ADSL over cable any day for reasons mentioned. I have always had a choice of numerous cable alternatives but chose to stick with airtel. i went through hell with the local guy until airtel showed up in my neighbourhood. At least I thought i went through hell until i read still worse experiences of others.

In case of 2G, its speeds have become pathetic & miserable to the point of being unusable in comparison to what it was a couple of years ago, despite the insane increase in tariff, as per my experience.
That is a sure sign of over crowding. A lack of capacity and the use of disincentives to alleviate over crowding.

we need more spectrum and not charge the moon for it. In fact this present move to attempt to charge more should be seen in the same context.

I won't comment on 3G as it is too expensive to my requirements.
Right, again same problem. if you read airtels paper you would know why.

My behaviour with 3G seems to very close to yours. It kinda sucks because the whole point of a mobile platform is to do mobile computing and interact with the world. The preset scenario does not exactly encourage it. Most people use wifi at home on thier mobiles. Not out on the street unfortunately. This must change. Only the govt can do it. Lots of overdue reform is required here.

Why the hell we had to pick such rare frequencies instead of sticking to what most other countries have chosen. govt is squatting on those bands and will not or cannot release it.

Before crying out loud for unbundling (which BTW has nothing to do with the matter of this thread), why don't you look what quality of service vs price, craptel is providing in cities where it has its own last mile connectivity. And how it has given up on cities like Bangalore & Chennai due to ACT & Beam. Don't you think they'll try every hook & crook to destroy these small players?
Unbundling is one aspect of a regime that needs reform. the ISP's have outlined suggestions how to improve the situation in the Sept last year consultation paper.

is anybody listening ? this push for NN is a symptom of a bigger problem. You say cartel i say the present system cannot handle demand. So the stop gap quick fix is curb demand (!)

The rest i've already answered. It works for some and not others. And when i ask around i find more people concurring.

Which is true by the fact. Again, go complain the govt. on why they're running such companies at loss.
No need, service is discontinued if it becomes unprofitable. end of story. Who are the losers ? both the company and its customers who will now have to find other alternatives. maybe better possibly worse.

It should be. Or do you want this also to be rich-exclusive like education & healthcare?
should be is a different argument. It is not a right at present.
 
Last edited:
why did airtel start to charge for whatsapp AND then withdraw it. Two inexplicable actions.
They wanted to force the govt. into putting out a telco favourable policy allowing them to charge for OTT services and it has backfired on them in the form of the current push for nn.

That is a sure sign of over crowding. A lack of capacity and the use of disincentives to alleviate over crowding.
So if the nation's fuel subsidy bill is too large we should start doling out adulterated gas? How is regressing a product the right way to do business? If their network cannot handle the load then stop accepting customers or increase capacity. But no, they will try to jam as many as they can regardless of how badly degraded the network becomes - you're own answer is an example of the corporate greed i was referring to.

Unbundling is one aspect of a regime that needs reform.
Won't happen as long as telcos keep demanding for free access. They have said no one time fees, no rental, no reimbursement of repairs works.

This must change. Only the govt can do it.
You're advocating regulation here even though you don't know it.

I can understand if the internet was an unnecessary luxury but it's not. It's an essential requirement for (at least for business today) and MUST be considered a public resource like spectrum, coal etc. The internet is actually more of a global resource - we are all contributors and thus stakeholders.

let me put it in the SIMPLEST terms possible - do you want airtel to regulate the internet or do you want airtel to BE regulated.

You've just rehashed the same arguments. You have yet to demonstrate the negative side of regulation in this case. you say a lot if things will go downhill but don't explain how. How will oversight from trai be a bad thing for consumers?

Would i pay extra for access to Techenclave? Yes.
does that mean I should?
 
They wanted to force the govt. into putting out a telco favourable policy allowing them to charge for OTT services and it has backfired on them in the form of the current push for nn.
This would imply they cannot legally charge for OTT services currently. Is that true ? if so what existing rules prevent them from doing so.

They do it anyway. Which if it was illegal would get them sanctioned. govt did not say anything. so it was not illegal. no rules prevent them from charging for OTT. And then they pull out shortly after. Makes no sense.

Forcing govt into doing anything isn't viable in any country. Its impossible.

So if the nation's fuel subsidy bill is too large we should start doling out adulterated gas? How is regressing a product the right way to do business? If their network cannot handle the load then stop accepting customers or increase capacity. But no, they will try to jam as many as they can regardless of how badly degraded the network becomes - you're own answer is an example of the corporate greed i was referring to.
The solution is for the govt to allow for more capacity. What is the govt doing in that regard. I seem to recall there being a great deal more activism on this subject around the 2005-06 time frame. Then 2007, the year of broadband came and went and it all went quiet after.

overcrowding does not work in anybody's interest. people wont use services as much. it looks good to say they added more customers but how much are those customers bringing in and how much more could be made if existing customers made more use of their services. Ontop of that they have QoS requirements to meet set by TRAI.

So the predictable outcome is increasing prices to curb demand so as to maintain QoS.

4G costs as much as 3G. 4x faster speed, same price. How can that be. Not many using it yet. Not that widespread and i mean in the 5 cities that offer it. No crowding.

Won't happen as long as telcos keep demanding for free access. They have said no one time fees, no rental, no reimbursement of repairs works.
Do you have a source for the underlined bit ? leasing is much cheaper than rolling it out yourself. much faster to offer services.

You're advocating regulation here even though you don't know it.

I can understand if the internet was an unnecessary luxury but it's not. It's an essential requirement for (at least for business today) and MUST be considered a public resource like spectrum, coal etc. The internet is actually more of a global resource - we are all contributors and thus stakeholders.

let me put it in the SIMPLEST terms possible - do you want airtel to regulate the internet or do you want airtel to BE regulated.
Companies cannot regulate the net, govts do. My arguments have been directed at the govt, present and past to enable faster adoption of the internet. They say they want to. But there is a lot that needs to be done in this space. You argue in favour of regulation the companies will just pass on the favours to you and you end up regulated.

The IT industry is a great example of less regulation.

Everything before required inordinate permits to do this or that. The idea behind less regulation is it prevents bad regulation from coming in. You don't seem to get that for some reason. regulations drive up the cost of doing business.

You've just rehashed the same arguments. You have yet to demonstrate the negative side of regulation in this case. you say a lot if things will go downhill but don't explain how. How will oversight from trai be a bad thing for consumers?
TRAI has oversight and is empowered to pass orders, i've not seen anything they've done to date to be a bad thing for consumers, quite the contrary. But are we going to let them do their job here or just shout at them. The chairman has made it quite clear that he plans to allow the process to continue with inputs from all parties and not any particular on in preference over others.
 
Last edited:
The keyword here being "best effort basis" meaning that the operator is not deliberately putting in or abusing existing mechanisms to interfere with the process based on factors that have nothing to with the terms of service between the operator and the client. That best effort basis is the guiding principle of net neutrality.

Service providers can already buy bandwidth based on their requirements. the operator is not going to let them use beyond that and he does have mechanisms to ensure that, but then, that is exactly the nature of the arrangement between the two. But if the operator were to use those mechanisms to decrease his quality of service for this service provider because his competitor is ready to pay more and this provider is not, then that is a violation of neutrality. Let the other guy buy more bandwidth if they have extra money and get the ability to transfer more bytes at a time, but the best effort basis should remain in both cases.
Fine, buy can you give me any existing examples where telcos are presently doing this ?

My point is we've not had net neutrality. yet where has this happened.

people like to cite comcast. well a shared medium gets degraded after a while. So instead of adding more capacity they discourage heavy users instead. There is no preferred P2P host that the company want you to use instead. Its a plain disincentive.

If I have to give an analogy, Lets say 3 people go to a Govt office to get the same work done. Lets say there is an associated fee of Rs 500 and it takes 1 week for the work to get done and all 3 pay the fee to get it done. Lets only say the officer asks for a bribe of 10k in order for him to do the work promptly within 1 week. The first guy pays 10k and his work gets done in 1 week. the second guy says that he can only pay 5k, so the officer says that he will do it, but he will take 1 month. The third guy says cannot afford any extra bribe on top of the stipulate fee. So the officer gets angry and says that he will not do the work at all or that he have to wait 2 years for the work to get done.
The guy who offerd the bribe asked to be moved to the top of the queue. This is the way we have figured out prioritisation. The offices are either under resourced or over worked. Who gets attention for the next job ? people call it corruption, i think its the cheapest way to get things done in an over burdened system without spreading the cost. This way those who can pay get better service by way of voluntary taxation.

What is wrong with above? He is an officer who has the authority to do that work. There is a designated fee to do it and there is a expected time frame. But, just because he has control over the process, would it be aright to charge an extra fee on top of the actual fee that is required to do the job? If you think that its the cost for prioritizing his job, notice how the process would still take 1 week for the guy who paid 10k. Basically he is charging extra for the person to get the privilege of the process going as it should have normally and to differentiate the rest, he is degrading the quality of service for them.
The way i look at it is it takes somewhere between 1 month and longer to get the job done. Consider the work load and amount of applicants.

if you want faster execution, streamline the process or increase capacity to handle the work, ie hire more people ie bigger budget etc. might not happen. Better to streamline and eliminate steps where possible otherwise the present system applies.

Neutrality principles simply say the officer should not have taken any extra bribe and put in his best efforts equally for all 3 people who have paid the designated fee. In the end if it takes 1 week two complete the work for the first two people and 10 days for the third, it is still fine, because the delay is despite his best efforts and not because he has deliberately sabotaged the process.
This is the way the internet has been working since the beginning to the present. Without any enforcement of net neutrality. Why are companies all playing along. people expect it. Thats' what makes you get an internet connection. if they started messing around they would drive their customers away. Lose lose for content provider, telco as well as their customer. Just because the tools exist to do just that does not make it a good idea.

What conditions have to exist where they will privilege one content or service provider over the other ? Right now if said content provider cannot meet demand they need to upgrade their infrastructure or their servers will crash and they will lose anyway.

if you disagree show me how you can make a business case to airtel to do just that. that airtel would stand to make a profit and sustain it into the future in doing so.

The way i see them doing it, is by reducing costs to just this or that service if all you need is that service and collecting the balance from those services. Airtel calculates they will make more this way. So nothing has been slowed down or sped up, rather the cost of access to certain services just dropped. Where is the problem here ?

This line of thinking suggests that they cannot increase their present customers and the only way to attract more is to reduce the cost of entry and recover the difference elsewhere. if the books balance out then investing in increasing their own infrastructure becomes a more compelling reason. This means the telcos believe capacity will become available in the near term.
 
Last edited:
Fine, buy can you give me any existing examples where telcos are presently doing this ?

My point is we've not had net neutrality. yet where has this happened.

There were cases in the past where ISP's have blocked or throttled ports where there is high data usage and forced customers to subscribe to costlier plans which they claim don't have the same limitations. Till a while back, Internet was for the most part a luxury than a necessity and ISP's targeted people who used P2P/torrents to get more money. There were few other things that they did like trying to curb skype and whatsapp usage, but overall, that was the extent to which an ISP could exploit the situation at the time which they did exploit.

Now that internet has more penetration and digital only businesses and services is on the rise, ISP's see more ways for exploitation. Basically, what I am trying to say is that even though Net neutrality did not formally exist, ISP's had limited scope for exploitation till now, but now there is scope for rampart exploitation and that is why this discussion on net neutrality has cropped up in every country. It is not like even US had formal net neutrality regulation till now right?

Airtel tried to bring in plans in violation of net neutrality almost 6 months back and had to pull back after a public outcry. Others who were about to release their own plans also decided to wait. That is when I think ISPs started lobbying TRAI and when the net neutrality regulation became reality in US, the ISP's must have thought that pre-emptive strike is necessary to get rid of the notion of net neutrality though official channels before awareness spreads to enough people. Once the anti neutrality stance is accepted officially, people would have no choice in the matter.

We are living in country where things like price fixing and artificial shortage are common ploys and people have no choice. What makes you think that a official anti neutrality legislation would not be exploited. Do you think people would stop subscribing to internet because all ISP's decide to change extra for offering services that they use?

people like to cite comcast. well a shared medium gets degraded after a while. So instead of adding more capacity they discourage heavy users instead. There is no preferred P2P host that the company want you to use instead. Its a plain disincentive.

You are assuming that they don't have capacity and I don't buy that theory. What happens in most cases is that ISP's throttle their users so that they can oversell their capacity and make more money. This happens in India as well. From what I read somewhere, operators like Airtel and reliance have a lot of bandwidth and only 30% of their capacity is used in India. India is an exploitable market, so they do exploit and if they find more means of exploiting, they well.

The guy who offerd the bribe asked to be moved to the top of the queue. This is the way we have figured out prioritisation. The offices are either under resourced or over worked. Who gets attention for the next job ? people call it corruption, i think its the cheapest way to get things done in an over burdened system without spreading the cost. This way those who can pay get better service by way of voluntary taxation.

The way i look at it is it takes somewhere between 1 month and longer to get the job done. Consider the work load and amount of applicants.

if you want faster execution, streamline the process or increase capacity to handle the work, ie hire more people ie bigger budget etc. might not happen. Better to streamline and eliminate steps where possible otherwise the present system applies.

This is the way the internet has been working since the beginning to the present. Without any enforcement of net neutrality. Why are companies all playing along. people expect it. Thats' what makes you get an internet connection. if they started messing around they would drive their customers away. Lose lose for content provider, telco as well as their customer. Just because the tools exist to do just that does not make it a good idea.

What conditions have to exist where they will privilege one content or service provider over the other ? Right now if said content provider cannot meet demand they need to upgrade their infrastructure or their servers will crash and they will lose anyway.


Assume the case where the office has the capacity required to do the work in expected 1 week timeline for the people that are coming in. So the guy is paying the 10k bribe to get the service as he would/should normally and the others are getting penalized because they are not paying the fee. That is exactly what is going to happen on the internet too. If I lease 10 Gbps bandwidth for my business, The ISP won't be able to speed up the connection any more than what is possible usually on a best effort basis. I don't suddenly be able to send 30 Gbps just because I paid extra. I will still need to lease extra bandwidth in order to do that. I will not get better latency than what is possible on the network. What the ISP would do instead is penalize the entities that are not paying extra.

if you disagree show me how you can make a business case to airtel to do just that. that airtel would stand to make a profit and sustain it into the future in doing so.

The way i see them doing it, is by reducing costs to just this or that service if all you need is that service and collecting the balance from those services. Airtel calculates they will make more this way. So nothing has been slowed down or sped up, rather the cost of access to certain services just dropped. Where is the problem here ?

This line of thinking suggests that they cannot increase their present customers and the only way to attract more is to reduce the cost of entry and recover the difference elsewhere. if the books balance out then investing in increasing their own infrastructure becomes a more compelling reason. This means the telcos believe capacity will become available in the near term.

Please see what's happening around you in every area of business, you see this sort of business happening everywhere in India. If every ISP introduced plans where facebook is an extra on top of the internet connection. Do you think all the facebook users will stop using internet altogether? Don't forget the fact that these sort things are done in conjunction. Do you think that its only Airtel that lobbied TRAI. I would believe all the major ISPs in India would be involved and even if some didn't they would still definitely take advantage of the outcome. Do you think ISP's would even lobby for it in such a specific way if they don't intend to take full advantage of it?

I don't see a damn reason why ISP's would not be able to make money by creating service specific top-ups if its no longer a legal grey area. Internet is no longer a luxury. People have to go for it when they have no choice in the matter.

Ever been to a place where there is no regulation on auto/taxi fares? All the drivers would over-charge customers. Every driver will roughly ask for the same fare and nobody will come for less. They won't allow any other passing auto/taxi to pick up people and you would have no choice expect to pay what ever they ask for if you want to avail the service. If you have no other choice you will pay even if you don't like it.

Ever wondered why internet is so costly in India despite our ISPs have so much bandwidth that they also lease in other countries. That is exactly the reason.
 
Back
Top