Net Neutrality in Danger! We should do something about this

baccilus

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Data rates (Mobile) are also one of the lowest, if not the lowest
They did try to sell 3G packs for a couple of years for really high prices. Nearly no one bought those 3G plan. It is only once they reduced the price that people started using 3G in the first place. So I guess they were forced to lower the prices of 3G.
 

superczar

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They did try to sell 3G packs for a couple of years for really high prices. Nearly no one bought those 3G plan. It is only once they reduced the price that people started using 3G in the first place. So I guess they were forced to lower the prices of 3G.
It's just been over a couple of years since 3G was launched in India :p (barring the BSNL only years)
I don't think there has really been any reduction in 3G rates , have been paying broadly the same since the launch days in Rest Of Maharashtra (if at all, i think the prices have moved north marginally)
Happy to be proved wrong though
 

redhotiron2004

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They did try to sell 3G packs for a couple of years for really high prices. Nearly no one bought those 3G plan. It is only once they reduced the price that people started using 3G in the first place. So I guess they were forced to lower the prices of 3G.
I don't think that prices have decreased even marginally. They have just introduced 25MB kind of packs at lower cost bracket that's why it might seem they have decreased. But, the fact is that I am still paying Rs250-300 for 1GB 3Gdata. That too for 28days validity(not 30days). I dont think that can ever be regarded as cheap.

My broadband plan provides much better unlimited speed at 512kbps and 1MBps till 5GB for Rs800. I even consider that as pathetic as far as cost goes. You guess it right, its from the most pathetic company Airtel as well.
 

superczar

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. But, the fact is that I am still paying Rs250-300 for 1GB 3Gdata. That too for 28days validity(not 30days). I dont think that can ever be regarded as cheap.
Please show me where else in the world would you get it for cheaper
Mobile BB comes at a premium over wired BB wherever in the world you may be

250 a month is quite low considering 1-2 GB is adequate for pretty much everyone (assuming you use it as a "mobile" internet connection - All bets are off if you intend to use it as your primary net connection for your home and for torrents)

on a side note , wired BB is overpriced in India
 

redhotiron2004

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Please show me where else in the world would you get it for cheaper
Mobile BB comes at a premium over wired BB wherever in the world you may be

250 a month is quite low considering 1-2 GB is adequate for pretty much everyone (assuming you use it as a "mobile" internet connection - All bets are off if you intend to use it as your primary net connection for your home and for torrents)

on a side note , wired BB is overpriced in India
If you really want to compare, then do check the bandwidth speed, total data offered for the price in countries like USA or Europe in general. Also, check south korea if you are at it.
Now, before you come up with the idea that oh, they are in dollars so they are costlier.
I must enlighten you of the fact that it depends on the cost of living index. For eg: They might be getting 1kg carrot for 5-10dollars vs Rs 30-40 in India. Another example is depending on the place they might be paying 5000-10000$ in accommodation as paying guest but here we are paying Rs 5000-Rs 12000 for similar kind of accommodation. Getting my point?

Also, if we leave aside, the cost of living even then if you would match the kind of bandwidth speed and data limit being offered. You would be astonished.

And lastly, I would like to know, why as Indian we shouldn't expect the lowest price in the world?
We have the cheapest labor(including skilled and semi skilled), we even have the most potential and fastest growing consumer market in the world. Supply and demand is the basis of every transaction. As such even though fixed costs can be similar for certain electronic components but companies operating cost are much lower which forms the basic chunk for any company.

I don't like to debate just for the sake of it. If you have a valid point regarding the things I mentioned about. Would like to hear your views. And one more thing, I have no problem in accepting your points if I would find them valid. So do answer accordingly.
 

superczar

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If you really want to compare, then do check the bandwidth speed, total data offered for the price in countries like USA or Europe in general. Also, check south korea if you are at it.
Now, before you come up with the idea that oh, they are in dollars so they are costlier.
I must enlighten you of the fact that it depends on the cost of living index. For eg: They might be getting 1kg carrot for 5-10dollars vs Rs 30-40 in India. Another example is depending on the place they might be paying 5000-10000$ in accommodation as paying guest but here we are paying Rs 5000-Rs 12000 for similar kind of accommodation. Getting my point?
oh man, here we go again - Please do the calcs once and then post
whether you do it in absolute terms or purchase power parity wise, the prices here would still turn out to be the lowest of the lot
also, while you are at it, compare against middle income countries (SA, Turkey , Ukraine, Mauritius etc) and low income as well (Vietnam, Cambodia, Nigeria, Kenya etc)
the findings will probably surprise you
At the cost of coding repetitive, I love travelling and the first thing I do when at any place is to pick a local SIM with data so that I have access to maps/places of interest- And when I say the prices in India are the lowest both in nominal and purchase parity values, it is from first hand experience
Also, if we leave aside, the cost of living even then if you would match the kind of bandwidth speed and data limit being offered. You would be astonished.
Read my post again
"on a side note , wired BB is overpriced in India"
I have spent enough time living in India and elsewhere (Including NA/WE) so once again, wired BB speeds and rates here have a lot of catching up to do
Not the same for wireless which is as good or as bad as elsewhere yet cheaper (which is what the current thread is about and not normal broadband speeds and cost)

And lastly, I would like to know, why as Indian we shouldn't expect the lowest price in the world?
We have the cheapest labor(including skilled and semi skilled), we even have the most potential and fastest growing consumer market in the world. Supply and demand is the basis of every transaction. As such even though fixed costs can be similar for certain electronic components but companies operating cost are much lower which forms the basic chunk for any company.
probably, but then the prices are anyway the lowest
Also, the argument on lower operating costs holds good against NA/Europe but does not for middle and low income countries which are more expensive nonetheless

I don't like to debate just for the sake of it. If you have a valid point regarding the things I mentioned about. Would like to hear your views. And one more thing, I have no problem in accepting your points if I would find them valid. So do answer accordingly.
If you really want to stretch this further, we could get into why the disposable income of a young middle class Indian earning say 15L pa is not very different from a young American earning say 60K USD- and thus the whole argument above becomes moot , however, I'll leave that for another time
 

redhotiron2004

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probably, but then the prices are anyway the lowest
Also, the argument on lower operating costs holds good against NA/Europe but does not for middle and low income countries which are more expensive nonetheless
Ok, I think we can discuss on cost and living and all. But, I would like to focus on your above comment as you have missed the point of demand and supply.
Tell me one single country in the world that have all the 4 things as India:
1. Consumer paying potential and population with huge demand.
2. Cheap technical labor( both skilled and semi skilled)
3. Strategic location at the center in asia.(not remote location like mauritius etc that takes time to reach and doesn't have the resources. Thats why everything is bound to be expensive)
4. Democracy( this have huge implications as capitalistic economy favors only private companies thus tend to have higher prices).

Now, all these points with such huge demand are enough to have the lowest prices in the world. But, on the contrary this is not the case. I would like you to point to any survey or study that have been conducted to show that we have the lowest prices in the world taking into consideration the cost of living or something similar to make that a level playing field. Something on which you are basing your assumptions.

Apart from that, If you perhaps find any country In the world that have all those 4 factors. Then, I will accept your points without a second thought.
 
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superczar

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I would like you to point to any survey or study that have been conducted to show that we have the lowest prices in the world taking into consideration the cost of living or something similar to make that a level playing field. Something on which you are basing your assumptions.
Who knows, maybe there is or maybe there isn't
My statement as stated already is a purely a presumption based simply on my experiences across the places I have travelled
(I have found 3g rates in India starkly lower compared to the RoW)
Since you disagree, i suppose the onus is on you to prove otherwise (maybe through a scholarly study or similar :) )

But, I would like to focus on your above comment as you have missed the point of demand and supply.
Tell me one single country in the world that have all the 4 things as India:
Probably there isn't
It's a moot point because I tried to establish something contrary to the widely held belief that 3G in India is very expensive
Appears you do tacitly agree since we seem to be going into a discussion on the underlying enablers of what makes it cheap
 
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baccilus

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Appears you do agree since we seem to be going into a discussion on the underlying enablers of what makes it cheap
How do you decide if something is cheap? Do you simply covert the cost to one common currency and compare it? That is a bad way to compare costs. You will probably have to normalize the cost against many other things, including the cost of spectrum, number of subscribers, cost of other common items like bread, milk, dal, etc. You can't simply compare non-normalized cost of things between Countries.
 
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superczar

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How do you decide if something is cheap? Do you simply covert the cost to one common currency and compare it? That is a bad way to compare costs. You will probably have to normalize the cost against many other things, including the cost of spectrum, number of subscribers, cost of other common items like bread, milk, dal, etc. You can't simply compare non-normalized cost of things between Countries.
Indeed
and which is why I asked to run a check against nominal as well as purchase parity adjusted values - Happy to be proved wrong
Just use a common standard (like PP comparison against say France but a nominal comparison against say Egypt)

In any case, the only point I was trying to make is that while people complain about 3G being expensive, they forget its relatively significantly cheaper here
Also, even if we were to agree that 3G is expensive, thats all the more reason for a platform like zero Net to be successful so that - To requote what I said earlier

Can't help but feel that the ongoing net neutrality debate is a classic case of elitist snobbery
Can I possibly convince my house help or driver to pay for a data plan?
vs Can I help them get on the web (albeit limited) by configuring a zero plan on their phone?
The outright benefits of a zero plan in a low income country to me far outweigh the perceived risk of a lopsided web in the future
 

nimod

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Why should general public, consumers or the government should be worried about any private company's profits.
If a company is not able to sustain a business, why are they beating drums about it.
They should simply close down and let others do the business.

In last 15 years, call/data rates have either decreased or remained virtually stable (vis-a-vis the inflation).,
Now the GSM operators are talking about increasing the prices of data to 1000% to maintain net neutrality.
http://rtn.asia/p-d/11138/idea-cellular-says-net-neutrality-will-raise-data-price-to-rs-1000-2500-per-gb

Fact is, these telecom operator have become habitual of reaping too large profits from indian consumers.
These people don't have any idea about role of innovation in maintaining the business growth (still selling 2G).
Suddenly when they found 4G ready to kick them out of business, they are trying all sort of dirty tactics to maintained their profit levels.
 
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swatkats

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Reliance websites hacked. http://web.archive.org/web/20150430141256/http://bigmagicinternational.com/




Even though Reliance differs in opinion than the rest of the providers,
it has openly declared war on user privacy.
They want the OTTs to setup servers in India so that government and corporate can "get the right" to snoop over the people.
It is important to note that if in future, reliance launches its own OTT services like chat messengers and all,
they should not be trusted at all.
We repeat. Do not trust them. Your data is going in wrong hands if you use them.
They will never encrypt the data. Encryption is the only thing stopping the giant corporate houses & government from misusing your personal data that you share between your friends/family using various apps.
Everything you will post will be looked upon by the government and corporate houses. They say they want to stop unlawful activities.
They are using it as a shield wall to compromise your privacy so that they can use your data for their own personal benefits. We will take down everyone who violates privacy of citizens,
just like we did to TRAI and will continue to attack them until the apologize for their mistake.
This is a warning to all telecom companies. You cannot control how we want to use the Internet. You never will.

We are Anoymous
We are Legion
We do not Forgive
We do not Forget
Expect Us!
 

asingh

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Overall, I find the BB rates phenomenal here in NCR. 2300 for 80GB is crazy. But have to pay it.
 

Crapmypants

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http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/204599-verizons-false-promises-75mbit-required-for-netflix-unlimited-fios-subject-to-data-limits

I know this is in the US but i put to you - there are many service providers for internet access in India but name EVEN ONE isp that you can guarantee honest behavior from? if you can point out ANY isp and say "This service provider is good/reliable" i will become the biggest proponent of these companies.

Would you ever give your card and pin number to the security guard at the atm? why not, he's there to ensure safety so surely you must trust him?
The point is that given past behavior of ALL isp's, giving them ANY level of control is easily the most brainless suggestion in the world.
All they want is money and they will use any and all methods (we've seen they don't care if it's legal or not) to get it.

When i give my car for servicing i ensure the tank is near zero because i don't trust them - why the special treatment for isp's? All major industries are capital intensive (oil, coal, power, airlines, construction) and as such have high costs. But then so is the payoff - you think someone is stupid enough to invest 20,000+ crore for a 4% return on investment over 15 years?

If given even half a chance these isp's will do to internet access what the taliban did to Afghanistan - our way or we cut your service/head off.

Pay more for more - fair
pay more for same - fine (inflation/taxes etc.)
pay more for less - this is where we are.

And if you're expecting competition to take care of everything, i would like to point out that i do not want to share any info about myself to my isp but i cannot do so. my private info is snooped by these guys and then the best thing i can hope for is spam.
so what should i do? switch providers? no good since they ALL store your info.
isp fails but the customer gets screwed - yes, lets support this model of development for our country even though it's nothing short of contract based dacoity.

Everyone (and i mean EVERYONE w/o exception) has come across not one but multiple cases of cheating/bad service/wrong bill by isp's. it's either happened to us or someone we know and because it's so common we've taken a 'chalta hain' attitude towards this behavior. it was not nipped in the bud by trai and so now we have gotten used to getting govt. office level of service from large private mncs.
So today, by not hauling up these companies now, you (and your unborn children) can be assured of horrible 4g and fiber service in the future. Three cheers for us.
 
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Spacescreamer

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The link is still active, and i hope the netizens especially step up their game
.. hope people are responding in droves, getting friends and relatives onboard.

Seems like that the link/timelimit is only gonna last for few more hours. It will take just a few seconds extra than last time for putting in the views, and it will be utterly ridiculous if the campaign falls short due to a few minutes' laziness and the gen 'chalta hai' /'kaun karega'/ 'kuch nahi hoga' attitude.
 
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ssslayer

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It was but inevitable that when public talk about using regulations to break TSP/ISP+seller tie ups, the TSP and ISP will also talk about regulating the over the top services.