No LPG Subsidy from Jan 2016 for consumers with 10 Lac Income

[Lord Nemesis]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...more-than-Rs-10-lakh/articleshow/50354795.cms

So what you think? I don't mind giving up LPG subsidy at all, but more and more, it looks like both the rich and poor make for a privileged class in India that are living off benefits afforded by the middle class while they themselves get absolutely nothing in return for all the taxes they pay. Even the basic things like maintenance of roads. Then, there is also the question of whether the really needy people are even getting any benefit from it at all.

These days, even a daily wage construction worker is earning enough for at least some of them to have a taxable income. Auto/Taxi drivers almost always do have taxable income, but none of them pay their taxes.

How about the govt take some measures to ensure that all people with taxable income pay their taxes so that the burden on the middle class reduces at least a bit. We have less than 3% of the population paying taxes and a majority of the tax collection is from the 30% bracket.

They will not take such measures because they want to protect their vote bank. They will only brag about how they will bring back money from some swiss bank accounts. India has so much black money among the local population that will make even that swiss bank black money pale in comparison. My office cab driver evaded close to 2 Lac in taxes last year. Multiply that with just the number of similar cabs running in each city...

Technically, there wouldn't be a need for the 30% or even the 20% tax slabs if taxes were just collected properly.

 

[tkin]

The rich have the power(money) and the poor have the numbers(votebank). Wonder who gets screwed up....*cough* middle class *cough*.


On a side note I have no issues giving up lpg subsidy, but it should go towards helping the poor, not end up in the hands of restaurant owners.

 

[Criminal]

our govt is getting dumber day by day. i think by 2020, the indian govt will go full-retard. and that day is not far when the overburdened tax-paying-service-class will initiate a coup.

 

[derp]

What is the definition of a middle class person?

According to international standards/benchmarks which are well established, a prison earning more than 10lpa in India can't be considered a middle class citizen under any circumstances.

This is a great move. Now the deficits would be in check and the government can utilize the funds for social causes.

 

[Lord Nemesis]

There are many different definitions and interpretations of classes. As per a survey of public opinion in India, a person with an income of over 20 Lac/year would be deemed rich by 85% of the people. 30~40 Lac would be close to where most people would consider somebody as rich.

A better yard stick IMO is to see how well they can afford a roof over their head.

Anybody who cannot afford to buy a moderate home for themselves (say a 2 BHK within the city/town) directly out of their pockets without help of a bank loan cannot be deemed to be rich.

Rich: Anybody who can afford to buy a reasonable house within the limits of the city out of their savings directly without needing a loan and without draining their funds can be classified as rich.

Middle: Anybody who can afford to buy a house with with the help of a loan in the long run or least be able to afford renting some sort of house can be deemed middle class.

Poor: Anybody who can never afford to own a house ever in their life can be classified as poor. Either they don't have any income at all or the income they have is spent on basic everyday necessities and needs

A poor person for real cannot technically afford a gas stove or a cylinder. The govt does not do anything for them. In fact many of those people would not be considered part of vote bank.

The people who get the benefits are the ones who pass off as poor because of the nature of work they do like for example daily wage workers, auto drivers and the like. An average auto driver in a city typically earns more than an entry level software professional at a company like TCS. Their yearly earning would be in the range of 4~6 Lac and since they evade all tax liability, they take home more than a typical software professional with the same income level. who is taxed at source. They are also considered important part of the vote banks for politicians and hence they are afforded various benefits.

If you want to go by the rankings on global rich list and the like, an auto driver income level figures in the top 2% of the richest people in the world and even a person with 10 Lac income would not be far way. Even a daily wage worker would fall within the top 15% of the richest people in the world. So if you want to consider 10 Lac income as rich, then there are no poor in India getting any of these benefits.

 

[derp]

There are many different definitions and interpretations of classes. As per a survey of public opinion in India, a person with an income of over 20 Lac/year would be deemed rich by 85% of the people. 30~40 Lac would be close to where most people would consider somebody as rich.

A better yard stick IMO is to see how well they can afford a roof over their head.

Anybody who cannot afford to buy a moderate home for themselves (say a 2 BHK within the city/town) directly out of their pockets without help of a bank loan cannot be deemed to be rich.

Rich: Anybody who can afford to buy a reasonable house within the limits of the city out of their savings directly without needing a loan and without draining their funds can be classified as rich.

Middle: Anybody who can afford to buy a house with with the help of a loan in the long run or least be able to afford renting some sort of house can be deemed middle class.

Poor: Anybody who can never afford to own a house ever in their life can be classified as poor. Either they don't have any income at all or the income they have is spent on basic everyday necessities and needs

A poor person for real cannot technically afford a gas stove or a cylinder. The govt does not do anything for them. In fact many of those people would not be considered part of vote bank.

The people who get the benefits are the ones who pass off as poor because of the nature of work they do like for example daily wage workers, auto drivers and the like. An average auto driver in a city typically earns more than an entry level software professional at a company like TCS. Their yearly earning would be in the range of 4~6 Lac and since they evade all tax liability, they take home more than a typical software professional with the same income level. who is taxed at source. They are also considered important part of the vote banks for politicians and hence they are afforded various benefits.

If you want to go by the rankings on global rich list and the like, an auto driver income level figures in the top 2% of the richest people in the world and even a person with 10 Lac income would not be far way. Even a daily wage worker would fall within the top 15% of the richest people in the world. So if you want to consider 10 Lac income as rich, then there are no poor in India getting any of these benefits.

What's the tldr?

The point here is, government is repealing subsidy benefits for people above income levels of 10lpa. It would save govt around 113 crores which can then be utilised elsewhere. I don't understand this mentality of free lunch. If you can afford, pay for it. Simple! This is a welcome move!!

 

[Criminal]

If you can afford, pay for it. Simple! This is a welcome move!!

it's good only if it's applicable to all the indians earning more than 10LPA. right now, it's only meant for people already paying taxes. how can govt know whether my neighbor earns more than 10L if he/she doesn't have a PAN card?

this is a ridiculous move.

EDIT:

The point here is, government is repealing subsidy benefits for people above income levels of 10lpa. It would save govt around 113 crores which can then be utilised elsewhere.

i could afford LPG when i was earning 2LPA.

why not target the 5LPA bracket and squeeze more money, for various "social causes?"

what's so special about 10LPA category?

 

[derp]

it's good only if it's applicable to all the indians earning more than 10LPA. right now, it's only meant for people already paying taxes. how can govt know whether my neighbor earns more than 10L if he/she doesn't have a PAN card?

this is a ridiculous move.

EDIT:

i could afford LPG when i was earning 2LPA.

why not target the 5LPA bracket and squeeze more money, for various "social causes?"

what's so special about 10LPA category?

I won't go into the shadow economic angle here. Needless to say, shadow economies help the primary economic condition of a country thrive. Secondly, you can't expect a government to formulate policies based on illegal cash hoardings.

It is simple mathematics that a 10lpa candidate has more cash in hand and can afford articles which a 5pla person can't. Also, don't you think you are advocating a crab mentality. You can afford to pay but you are complaining that your neighbour ain't paying even though you FEEL that he earns more than you! Look at reservations. Same argument can go there as well. However even if a policy is helping 30-40% of the needy population, it automatically becomes a good policy!!

 

[drkrack]

Less than 1L (by 10L pa) per month in a metro is for basic survival nowadays, average schools charge 1L+ as school fees per annum.
I'm OK with giving LPG subsidy, but limit of 10L PA is bit hard. It should be increased to at least 20L pa.

BTW what about freebies given to non working parliamentarians, 5 star meals @ 10rs in assembly canteens? Freebies to Class 1 govt officials? I think all those freebies should be stopped first (austerity measures fully implemented) , then tax payers will be more than willing to give away LPG subsidy.

 

[derp]

austerity measures fully implemented

Lol! Then parties like podemos etc would crop up in India too! I have had just about enough of political parties emerging out of mass movements[DOUBLEPOST=1451410285][/DOUBLEPOST]

austerity measures fully implemented

Lol! Then parties like podemos etc would crop up in India too! I have had just about enough of political parties emerging out of mass movements

 

[Criminal]

You can afford to pay but you are complaining that your neighbour ain't paying even though you FEEL that he earns more than you!

no, i don't open my mouth unless i know about things. my neighbor is my childhood friend. drives bentley. he is quite open with me with his business dealings. i am not jealous of him. it's just that he doesn't have a PAN card and govt can't touch him even with their rotten pen1s!

this year, my electricity office shifted to a non-computerized center. i noticed that i was the only one paying thru checks. there are 3 windows for cash collection and only 1 for checks. this thing never bothered me until yesterday. yesterday, i felt like a tax paying ch**tia... which i really am. i am definitely going to record a video on my next visit... audis and bimmers outside the small office and people walking in with wads of cash!

my rich friend gave me this tip about paying only in cash. and here i am spending blissfully using my CC.

However even if a policy is helping 30-40% of the needy population, it automatically becomes a good policy!!

have you really seen a poor person in city? it's impossible for a poor person (BPL) to survive in a city. i haven't seen/met any poor indian... even though my mom spent her entire working life in NGOs! there are few labourer shanties near my home. and i am not BSing but these guys buy full cream milk everyday while i buy cheaper toned version. unlike me, these guys don't like to save for the rainy days.

i have read in newspapers about poor people living in isolated places, feeding off grass and rats. such people are poor according to my crab mentality. i am willing to pay more taxes for such people. but not for the ones who can afford full-cream milk and colas.

i always keep around 10 packets of biscuits in my car to distribute to those beggars on traffic lights. 9 out of 10, rip them off on my windshield. they scratch my car, break wipers if i don't give them money. even beggars are not poor in cities.

my money is definitely not for them. govt can hunt people earning more than 10LPA but can they find those rat-eating poors? i don't think they want LPGs.

However even if a policy is helping 30-40% of the needy population, it automatically becomes a good policy!!

you don't have to answer this but are you paying taxes? are you studying or earning?

 

[derp]

no, i don't open my mouth unless i know about things. my neighbor is my childhood friend. drives bentley. he is quite open with me with his business dealings. i am not jealous of him. it's just that he doesn't have a PAN card and govt can't touch him even with their rotten pen1s!

this year, my electricity office shifted to a non-computerized center. i noticed that i was the only one paying thru checks. there are 3 windows for cash collection and only 1 for checks. this thing never bothered me until yesterday. yesterday, i felt like a tax paying ch**tia... which i really am. i am definitely going to record a video on my next visit... audis and bimmers outside the small office and people walking in with wads of cash!

my rich friend gave me this tip about paying only in cash. and here i am spending blissfully using my CC.


have you really seen a poor person in city? it's impossible for a poor person (BPL) to survive in a city. i haven't seen/met any poor indian... even though my mom spent her entire working life in NGOs! there are few labourer shanties near my home. and i am not BSing but these guys buy full cream milk everyday while i buy cheaper toned version. unlike me, these guys don't like to save for the rainy days.

i have read in newspapers about poor people living in isolated places, feeding off grass and rats. such people are poor according to my crab mentality. i am willing to pay more taxes for such people. but not for the ones who can afford full-cream milk and colas.

i always keep around 10 packets of biscuits in my car to distribute to those beggars on traffic lights. 9 out of 10, rip them off on my windshield. they scratch my car, break wipers if i don't give them money. even beggars are not poor in cities.

my money is definitely not for them. govt can hunt people earning more than 10LPA but can they find those rat-eating poors? i don't think they want LPGs.


you don't have to answer this but are you paying taxes? are you studying or earning?

I am not getting your point. See, as far as I can understand, this thread is about the government's policy to annul lpg subsidies for people with incomes of 10lpa and above and nothing else! Also, this policy applies to people from cities and rural areas alike. Why are you linking it with the taxation structure?

Secondly, this move will help the government recover a lot of funds. Now let me break down my arguement to make it a tad more comprehensible.

Firstly, the government is slowly phasing out lpg cylinders per se and moving to a piped gas distribution system. I am assuming that if you are earning 10lpa in some urban locale, you either have your own house/or have a rented apartment in some good to do locality. In that locality, either your will have a piped connection , or you would have other means of getting food (occasional cooking/dabba system et AL). I think if your income is 10 lakhs, thinking about getting food is the least of your concerns. You would not depend on lpg for cooking! You must be well insured, have a small family(mostly) and would be more interested in materialistic purchases as your visceral basic demands are met by your salary.

Now let's talk of a person in some rural area with income >10lpa. He/she would be a business owner(most prolly) and thus, investing on a cylinder won't be a much burden for him/her.

Secondly , many empirical studies have proven that generally people with incomes >8lpa have smaller familial setups read nuclear and not consume more than 6-8 cylinders. Hence it would not hit them hard.

I agree that the pds system is flawed in our country but this move would save the exchequer additional 113 crores which can then be diverted for better/meaningful usages. I.e. improving the pds system maybe.

Also, many people have already given up lpg subsidies.

 

[sharktale1212]

^ What empirical studies? And what data to support saying many people have given up already? Links please.

This is move is no surprise. Given the whole UIDAI scheme and returning subsidies rather giving them upfront had already laid down the framework for this. What is surprising is the speed at which this has come about. Only if government was this fast in rolling back other benefits or shutting down every tom, dick and harry asking for reservation.
That said, it will be interesting to see which way the government takes from here and utilizes the UIDAI data coming from Aadhar. And it also remains to be seen if things get taken too far, which happens in India unfortunately, and they start handing out "exceptions" or someone demanding more "giving up subsidy from the rich" turning this into a class war.

 

[adder]

How many cylinders does one use per year,for instance i use around 15.
So i will loose around 3000 a year in subsidy,so for a person getting 10/lakh per year or more its not going to be a big deal.

 

[derp]

And what data to support saying many people have given up already? Links please

http://m.thehindu.com/news/cities/mumbai/65-lakh-people-give-up-lpg-subsidy/article7354741.ece

 

[Criminal]

Also, many people have already given up lpg subsidies.

BTW, I am not affected by this policy as none of my family members opted for LPG subsidy in the first place. Insiders asked us to not to go for the subsidy. For such a small family, we've got 5 houses in Delhi, NCR and Punjab. We've got 7 LPG connections and 1 LNG (piped) connection. All of them are legitimate and approved by the govt.

So, when I am not affected then why am I barking?

You can afford to pay but you are complaining that your neighbour ain't paying even though you FEEL that he earns more than you!

^^ I know my neighbor very well but you doubt my knowledge about his/her earnings. You don't know me at all and yet in the same breath you ASSUMED that I could afford to pay higher prices for the LPG?

That's my problem. How can you or govt assume that 10LPA is enough for my lifestyle? Did you guys look into my bank account to confirm savings of 10L each year?

I crossed 10LPA barrier long time back and too early in my career. And yet, 4 years ago I didn't save a single rupee for straight 18 months. We had taken a loan and wanted to repay ASAP. My brother sold off his car and moved to a smaller apartment. Though we were earning handsomely but there was hardly any money in our pockets. This was the dedication and hardwork we put in to ensure that we have a safe future.

Govt wants me to share my hard earned money with people who don't do hardwork (auto drivers, rickshaw pullers, plumbers, bus drivers etc)? Govt wants me to share my hard earned money with the people earning less than 10LPA and the buffoons who never pay taxes?

I started earning with Rs 7000PM, which translates to less than Rs 250 per day. My office was nearby and I had to walk in sweltering heat because afternoon sleep was more important to few auto drivers and 1Km distance was too less for any profits. I cannot forget that because of these auto drivers I missed taking a semester exam. They didn't want to ferry me from the hospital to my college, as they'd get no return savaari.

Back then, auto drivers used to earn more than me but sadly they aren't as hardworking as me. It was only my my hardwork that ensured easy 10LPA in my pocket. Now govt wants me to let these auto guys enjoy on my hardships, my hardwork?

I have similar stories for rest of the labor-class professionals. I have same feelings for my colleagues who earn less than me despite having similar or better education. I am not an ass-licker and none of my bosses like me. They like my hardwork and dedication, and that's what matters to me... work is worship to me.

I cannot part with my money for people who don't take their jobs seriously - auto drivers, rickshaw pullers, plumbers and the like.

I'd be very happy if you or the govt brings me one person who cannot survive without my tax money.

I am already supporting a poor family of a handicapped female bread-earner and 2 infants. This will go on for the next 18~20 years until the kids start earning. I'll ensure that the kids get proper education and don't end up in a ditch like their father did. This is a minuscule amount for me but a life changer for those poor.

Yes, you are right that I can afford to give up subsidy but for whom? Auto/bus drivers etc?

I am not getting your point ... Why are you linking it with the taxation structure?

Because only the tax paying people are affected. Is there any other way for the govt to determine how much you are earning?

Thru PAN card, govt can find milking cows like me but can they find people eligible for receiving subsidy? Deficiency is from the govt's side, because of which they are tightening the noose around 10PLA cows. People earning 5LPA can easily afford full price of the LPG. Just ask them to reduce their yearly pizza consumption. Simple!

How much is the LPG subsidy for each cylinder anyway? I am sure it must be less than monthly costs for owning a mobile. How about govt makes policy for mobile phone owners to give up their LPG subsidy - for the benefit of poor?

I know a real poor family who doesn't own a mobile phone. And I am 100% sure that this family won't be able to afford LPG connection even if all the 10LPA people give up their subsidy. They are so poor but the govt wants to help the likes of auto drivers!

Let me tell you that I'd be in less than 10LPA bracket today had it not been for my hardwork and the sacrifices made by my father. I would've been enjoying someone else's subsidy today, had I or my father chose to enjoy a relaxed life. With more than 10LPA salary, I'd like to give my dad a better lifestyle because of the sacrifices he made for me (and the country too ). Why should auto drivers and the govt enjoy my subsidy money (however small it may be) when these guys had no hand in my success?

 

[derp]

Firstly, by you I didn't mean YOU per se. I never thought I would have to make this clarification , anyways.

Secondly, the following dont seem coherent to me ...

 

[Criminal]

^^ I put you and govt in the same category - people who don't know my past, my needs, expenditure etc and yet think that it's okay for me to give up subsidy!

 

[derp]

we've got 5 houses in Delhi, NCR and Punjab. We've got 7 LPG connections and 1 LNG (piped) connection. All of them are legitimate and approved by the govt.

I crossed 10LPA barrier long time back and too early in my career.

am already supporting a poor family of a handicapped female bread-earner and 2 infants. This

Let me tell you that I'd be in less than 10LPA bracket today had it not been for my hardwork and the sacrifices made by my father. I would've been enjoying someone else's subsidy today

Heck, you can sustain yourself even if you don't do anything for the remaining part of your life.

Now coming to your arguments. Why do you have a microscopic point of view? Do you think India is just Delhi and Chandigarh? Don't you think by the money saved by repealing taxes from the undeserved , some poor boy from some obscure village in Telangana district would be able to see light during nights? Your arguments are too much city centric and also your quoted examples are way too biased and wrong. You don't see the street hawker who moves around colonies living heavy tokras on head just to earn for two square meals a day? Don't you know majority of Indians live under $1 a day? Don't you feel these saved earnings would benefit them in some way or the other?

I think it's high time we get rid of the microscopic glasses that we love to wear and analyse things from a broader perspective!

 

[rdst_1]

Many valid points have been raised by your argument Criminal.
I too believe that one can make more of a difference by doing charitable deeds on their own instead of paying taxes and hoping the govt will utilize them properly.

And Derp, even when people explain the reasoning to you, you don't acknowledge it and just start talking about other stuff instead.

My local shopkeeper definitely earns more than 10LPA while my maid just earns 48k a year. Yet both of them will get LPG subsidy because the shopkeeper never declares his income correctly. Also a businessman can divide his earnings into his family members by showing that each of them hold a certain position in his company.
So say you earn 10L but are the only earning member of the family, hence the total income of family is just 10L. Meanwhile the businessman or let's just say another family has 4 working members each earning 8LPA.
So your family loses the subsidy while the other family still gets it despite earning 3 times more money than you.

If ever a system has to be designed where govt provides benefits based on earnings, which is definitely a good thing, it first needs a system which can flawlessly and accurately calculate those earnings. Hence the reason why others were mentioning about the much needed overhaul of our IT system.