No LPG Subsidy from Jan 2016 for consumers with 10 Lac Income

[derp]

And Derp, even when people explain the reasoning to you, you don't acknowledge it and just start talking about other stuff instead.

What other stuff? Taxation is an imperative part of our economy. We still have thousands living under abject poverty. Taxation redistributes weath , acting as a parity. So those who can afford, shouldn't crib. Don't you see how well the welfare states of EU are doing in terms of human development indices? And they have a scewed taxation system .

The arguments made seem as rants. In a society of inequality, we needs checks like these!

 

[rdst_1]

What other stuff? Taxation is an imperative part of our economy. We still have thousands living under abject poverty. Taxation redistributes weath , acting as a parity. So those who can afford, shouldn't crib. Don't you see how well the welfare states of EU are doing in terms of human development indices? And they have a scewed taxation system .

The arguments made seem as rants. In a society of inequality, we needs checks like these!

So why can't you understand that the taxation system needs to be perfect before you start schemes based on that system.

 

[derp]

So why can't you understand that the taxation system needs to be perfect before you start schemes based on that system.

Do you think everything is white in the EU and people don't hide their incomes? This is a basic human instinct and it is prevalent everywhere. Everything needs an impetus and I feel this is a right move on the part of the government. Anyways , many bills have been passed like the black money bill etc which will slowly act as a deterrent against excessive hiding if incomes.

Also, as I said before, even if a move is helping 30-40% if the population, it qualifies as a good policy!

 

[tkin]

Many valid points have been raised by your argument Criminal.
I too believe that one can make more of a difference by doing charitable deeds on their own instead of paying taxes and hoping the govt will utilize them properly.

And Derp, even when people explain the reasoning to you, you don't acknowledge it and just start talking about other stuff instead.

My local shopkeeper definitely earns more than 10LPA while my maid just earns 48k a year. Yet both of them will get LPG subsidy because the shopkeeper never declares his income correctly. Also a businessman can divide his earnings into his family members by showing that each of them hold a certain position in his company.
So say you earn 10L but are the only earning member of the family, hence the total income of family is just 10L. Meanwhile the businessman or let's just say another family has 4 working members each earning 8LPA.
So your family loses the subsidy while the other family still gets it despite earning 3 times more money than you.

If ever a system has to be designed where govt provides benefits based on earnings, which is definitely a good thing, it first needs a system which can flawlessly and accurately calculate those earnings. Hence the reason why others were mentioning about the much needed overhaul of our IT system.

India still doesn't have a Computer Science category for the IES(UPSC) exam, that subject isn't core enough, our IT systems are a joke(aadhar etc), this will never happen in India.

 

[derp]

My local shopkeeper definitely earns more than 10LPA while my maid just earns 48k a year. Yet both of them will get LPG subsidy

Also, this is exactly what I mean by a microspic point of view. You are not happy that a needy person is getting the benefits. You crib about someone who is fooling the system, apparently, however it is just your assumption which MIGHT be wrong!

 

[rdst_1]

Do you think everything is white in the EU and people don't hide their incomes? This is a basic human instinct and it is prevalent everywhere. Everything needs an impetus and I feel this is a right move on the part of the government. Anyways , many bills have been passed like the black money bill etc which will slowly act as a deterrent against excessive hiding if incomes.

Also, as I said before, even if a move is helping 30-40% if the population, it qualifies as a good policy!

There is another measure which can be much more beneficial. Remove Income Tax completely and increase Sales Tax. Declaration of income still remains mandatory with serious repercussions in place if people fail to do so.This will make many of the shopkeepers etc declare their incomes correctly, although this still won't help in accounting the money earned as bribes. And then you can deploy such schemes.

You argue that the schemes are good if it helps even 30-40%, but when there are much better alternatives available then what are the excuse behind implementing them instead.

Everyone knows that people don't like paying taxes because they don't get the required services from the govt in return. If you remove income tax, which as everyone knows, very few people pay in India, many more people will declare their incomes correctly and such schemes will have far reaching effect.

 

[derp]

There is another measure which can be much more beneficial. Remove Income Tax completely

Lolwhat? Don't take it otherwise but you just went full retard. Please don't do full retard!!..

You think the government can function with the sales tax alone? Also, do you want to increase the gaps between the rich and the poor more?[DOUBLEPOST=1451499220][/DOUBLEPOST]Furthermore , I think you should read the taxation structure again. Sales tax comes under states and not the center!

 

[rdst_1]

Lolwhat? Don't take it otherwise but you just went full retard. Please don't do full retard!!..

You think the government can function with the sales tax alone? Also, do you want to increase the gaps between the rich and the poor more?[DOUBLEPOST=1451499220][/DOUBLEPOST]Furthermore , I think you should read the taxation structure again. Sales tax comes under states and not the center!

In India only 3% people pay Income Tax, while 100% pay Sales/Customs/Excise/Service tax.
From 2013-14 statistics, IT was just 19% of total tax collected.
Are you sure the govt can't make adjustments to other taxes so that they make up for the deficit made by removing IT.
By doing so you not only get most of the people to declare correct incomes ( which leads to subsidies being directed to the real needy people), but also move into a more efficient and manageable taxation system where everyone ends up paying their fair share of taxes instead of just 2-3% of the population.

 

[Criminal]

Heck, you can sustain yourself even if you don't do anything for the remaining part of your life

It's very easy to make such comments on other's lifestyle but you should understand that I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth. It was a result of constant hardwork by 2 generations.

Now coming to your arguments. Why do you have a microscopic point of view?

My problem is that I see everyone at the same level as me. It's been a constant problem with me at home as well as office. I expect my parents to eat/exercise just like me to be healthy. I expect low performers in my office to pull up their socks. It's not a myopic view and definitely not Delhi/Chandigarh centric.

And it's because of the same reason that I believe 5LPA earners can also give up subsidy because I had been at this level.

I rose from the levels of less than 1LPA to 31LPA, without ever running after money (a la rancho ). I quit 5 jobs when I realized that I could add no value to the business. I am a software engineer but I had been flexible enough to work in all sorts of positions.

I expect the same from those rural persons or street hawkers you care for. They can earn more and support their families, if they wish to. Can't they be flexible with their jobs like me? Can't they put in more effort to earn extra money? I had given up many holidays, day-shifts just to earn extra income. I don't see any street hawker on the roads after 10PM... don't they know that working class people reach home late? All of the guys you mentioned, like to work in their own comfort zones. And that's not okay with me. I don't have a myopic view.

Come on, India is probably the only country where anyone can earn money, regardless of age or qualification.

I've been to major slums in north-India because of my mom's work and I found out that these poor want to REMAIN poor. Govt give them so much and they just can't leave their slums (comfort zone). I won't believe your stories or TV reports when I have seen the real stuff from my own eyes. For example, govt has already given concrete flats to all the slum dwellers residing near embassies in New Delhi. All of those so called poor have rented off those properties and they continue to live in the same shanties. They don't want to give away their poor/BPL tag.

Of course, there'll be some exceptions but how many rags-to-riches stories do you come across on a daily basis? I see around 10 instances in a year where some slum dweller made it to IIM or IIT. Those are the real people that would receive my unconditional support. And not some random 30-40% Indians.

Why do you have a microscopic point of view? Do you think India is just Delhi and Chandigarh?

I guess, I am the only one on TE who has lived in almost every state in India. Not all, but most of them. I don't favor any particular state/city... and why did you mention Chandigarh out of all the places?

Don't you know majority of Indians live under $1 a day? Don't you feel these saved earnings would benefit them in some way or the other?

Under-$1-a-day is media hype. Yes, there are some really needy people but I can assure you that govt help doesn't reach them. The ones who'd get benefitted, don't really need it.

By "saved earnings", do you mean subsidy to given up by people like me?

Don't you think by the money saved by repealing taxes from the undeserved , some poor boy from some obscure village in Telangana district would be able to see light during nights?

Absolutely agree with you. But first ask your govt to produce the list of needy. There has to be a list, otherwise how would the govt distribute the benefits?

I think it's high time we get rid of the microscopic glasses that we love to wear and analyse things from a broader perspective!

I wish those street hawkers, auto drivers etc start working out of their comfort zones.

I'd be much happy to argue with you on this matter but after you start earning a taxable income. Otherwise, this discussion will look exactly like those threads where "people not living in Delhi urging Delhiites to give up their cars."

 

[derp]

In India only 3% people pay Income Tax, while 100% pay Sales/Customs/Excise/Service tax.
From 2013-14 statistics, IT was just 19% of total tax collected.
Are you sure the govt can't make adjustments to other taxes so that they make up for the deficit made by removing IT.
By doing so you not only get most of the people to declare correct incomes ( which leads to subsidies being directed to the real needy people), but also move into a more efficient and manageable taxation system where everyone ends up paying their fair share of taxes instead of just 2-3% of the population.

I think this graph is self explanatory!

 

[derp]

I expect the same from those rural persons or street hawkers you care for. They can earn more and support their families, if they wish to. Can't they be flexible with their jobs like me?

Lol! Seriously lol without any offense!

I mean you are comparing an uneducated street hawker who sells vegetables to make his ends meet with yourself, a qualified software engineer. Furthermore , you want and expect the government to treat both of you equally?

 

[derp]

I expect the same from those rural persons or street hawkers you care for. They can earn more and support their families, if they wish to. Can't they be flexible with their jobs like me?

Lol! Seriously lol without any offense!

I mean you are comparing an uneducated street hawker who sells vegetables to make his ends meet with yourself, a qualified software engineer. Furthermore , you want and expect the government to treat both of you equally?

 

[rdst_1]

I think this graph is self explanatory! View attachment 62058

What are you trying to say?

I have taken the same stats and told you that our income tax collections only amount to 20% while corporate taxes amount to nearly 40%.

On the other hand I am gonna take the example of Germany. Here there are 2 types of direct taxes that the people pay.

First is Income Tax which amounts to 26% of the total tax for yr 2014.
Second is Social Security Contributions which amounted to 38% of the total tax for yr 2014. Out of this half is paid by employer and half by employee.
Corporate tax contributions for the same period were 5%.

So if my calculations are correct, people's contributions stand at 26+19 (38/2) = 45% while corporate contributions amount to 24%.
That is a country where income tax system works, as in people pay their taxes and govt gives them proper amenities in return.

Over here it is the complete opposite. No one wants to pay income tax because they don't get the proper services from the govt. So we need an overhaul of the system. We can very easily increase other taxes to make up for the deficit of the income tax and slowly build a system that will be more manageable and effective, especially when it comes to identifying the needy.

 

[derp]

What are you trying to say?

I have taken the same stats and told you that our income tax collections only amount to 20% while corporate taxes amount to nearly 40%.

On the other hand I am gonna take the example of Germany. Here there are 2 types of direct taxes that the people pay.

First is Income Tax which amounts to 26% of the total tax for yr 2014.
Second is Social Security Contributions which amounted to 38% of the total tax for yr 2014. Out of this half is paid by employer and half by employee.
Corporate tax contributions for the same period were 5%.

So if my calculations are correct, people's contributions stand at 26+19 (38/2) = 45% while corporate contributions amount to 24%.
That is a country where income tax system works, as in people pay their taxes and govt gives them proper amenities in return.

Over here it is the complete opposite. No one wants to pay income tax because they don't get the proper services from the govt. So we need an overhaul of the system. We can very easily increase other taxes to make up for the deficit of the income tax and slowly build a system that will be more manageable and effective, especially when it comes to identifying the needy.

I meant that income tax is the second biggest revenue generator for the government after the corporate tax. If you eliminate this, the government can't function what so ever. Also, don't forget that this dataset only takes care of white money. Now say if people slowly minimise hiding income due to government imposed deterrents, just calculate/imagine the value where the earnings would rise!

And of course the govt would then route these funds into infrastructure, social sectors etc.

 

[derp]

Over here it is the complete opposite. No one wants to pay income tax because they don't get the proper services from the govt. So we need an overhaul of the system. We can very easily increase other taxes to make up for the deficit of the income tax and slowly build a system that will be more manageable and effective, especially when it comes to identifying the needy.

All these are long term measures. In the short run, govt needs to start with certain measures to increase its tax revenues and also strenghten the target subsidy mechanism, which it is doing!

 

[derp]

It's very easy to make such comments on other's lifestyle but you should understand that I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth. It was a result of constant hardwork by 2 generations.



My problem is that I see everyone at the same level as me. It's been a constant problem with me at home as well as office. I expect my parents to eat/exercise just like me to be healthy. I expect low performers in my office to pull up their socks. It's not a myopic view and definitely not Delhi/Chandigarh centric.

And it's because of the same reason that I believe 5LPA earners can also give up subsidy because I had been at this level.

I rose from the levels of less than 1LPA to 31LPA, without ever running after money (a la rancho ). I quit 5 jobs when I realized that I could add no value to the business. I am a software engineer but I had been flexible enough to work in all sorts of positions.

I expect the same from those rural persons or street hawkers you care for. They can earn more and support their families, if they wish to. Can't they be flexible with their jobs like me? Can't they put in more effort to earn extra money? I had given up many holidays, day-shifts just to earn extra income. I don't see any street hawker on the roads after 10PM... don't they know that working class people reach home late? All of the guys you mentioned, like to work in their own comfort zones. And that's not okay with me. I don't have a myopic view.

Come on, India is probably the only country where anyone can earn money, regardless of age or qualification.

I've been to major slums in north-India because of my mom's work and I found out that these poor want to REMAIN poor. Govt give them so much and they just can't leave their slums (comfort zone). I won't believe your stories or TV reports when I have seen the real stuff from my own eyes. For example, govt has already given concrete flats to all the slum dwellers residing near embassies in New Delhi. All of those so called poor have rented off those properties and they continue to live in the same shanties. They don't want to give away their poor/BPL tag.

Of course, there'll be some exceptions but how many rags-to-riches stories do you come across on a daily basis? I see around 10 instances in a year where some slum dweller made it to IIM or IIT. Those are the real people that would receive my unconditional support. And not some random 30-40% Indians.


I guess, I am the only one on TE who has lived in almost every state in India. Not all, but most of them. I don't favor any particular state/city... and why did you mention Chandigarh out of all the places?


Under-$1-a-day is media hype. Yes, there are some really needy people but I can assure you that govt help doesn't reach them. The ones who'd get benefitted, don't really need it.

By "saved earnings", do you mean subsidy to given up by people like me?


Absolutely agree with you. But first ask your govt to produce the list of needy. There has to be a list, otherwise how would the govt distribute the benefits?


I wish those street hawkers, auto drivers etc start working out of their comfort zones.

I'd be much happy to argue with you on this matter but after you start earning a taxable income. Otherwise, this discussion will look exactly like those threads where "people not living in Delhi urging Delhiites to give up their cars."

I think you have similar feelings for subsidies you get/taxes you are compelled to pay!

*no offense*

 

[Criminal]

I mean you are comparing an uneducated street hawker who sells vegetables to make his ends meet with yourself, a qualified software engineer. Furthermore , you want and expect the government to treat both of you equally?

Without giving you all the details about my family, let me tell you in brief that my family had similar roots/beginnings as your humble street hawker. My dad never had the luxury to study under electric bulbs. He ran out of money while doing masters. Today, he moves along with the PM. My mom's family started from zero after the partition. She worked long time with various Delhi CMs. If my parents could sacrifice creature comforts for a better future, then yes, I fcuking expect your street hawker to do the same. I was not a software engineer from birth and your govt did not put 10LPA job in my lap.

I really believe there are poor people. Unless govt finds them and supports them, this 10LPA policy is just another scandal.

 

[derp]

Unless govt finds them and supports them, this 10LPA policy is just another scandal.

That's what the government is trying to do. And it needs money for that. And for that it'll tax your income and you will have to oblige. That's the simple equation here!

 

[rdst_1]

All these are long term measures. In the short run, govt needs to start with certain measures to increase its tax revenues and also strenghten the target subsidy mechanism, which it is doing!

How is it strengthening the target subsidy mechanism, when it is using Income Tax as a standard and only 3% of the population of India pays Income Tax.
This is what everyone is trying to say for so long.

 

[derp]

How is it strengthening the target subsidy mechanism, when it is using Income Tax as a standard and only 3% of the population of India pays Income Tax.
This is what everyone is trying to say for so long.

Introduction of DBT, linking that with aadhar card, repealing lpg subsidies et.al