Paypal Gateway - New RBI Guidelines " Are We Doomed "

Satan

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Well if anything, I don't think Supra was reffering to smaller businesses when he made his statement about corporate taxes. His rant was on the lines of... the rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer. Another thing he was trying to explian was that the government tends to go after the middle & lower class incomes while there are so many billions of dollars stashed away by corrupt high income individuals and companies.

No one would have a problem with the RBI demanding that we withdraw our funds to various banks in order for them to be able to levy taxes. The problem however is that, not only do you get shitty conversion rates while transferring foreign currency to your bank accounts, you also get even shittier conversion rates from INR to foreign currency when using your credit cards, not to mention the 3.5% surcharge credit card companies are making everytime you make an international transaction.

More than corporate taxes, it is the lack of any systemic regulations on large corporations (like banks) that increases their profit margins while severly punishing the little guys.
 

Aces170

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Yes Paypal is 100% corrupt I agree but there are more corrupt banks in our system....take our own ICICI for example ....and the rules put in are the most dump....terrorist money can be routed in 1000 other ways and this is just a needle in the whole straw ! You are very nice in telling like to stop terrorist lets ban mobile phones/satellite phones/internet etc etc :lmao:....system should not punish honest ppl and they should look in another way to plug the hole. The billions of $$ that are sitting in Swiss, Cayman Islands is funding regionalism, goondiam, real estate hoarding ! That is 10000 times more than paypal and lets get that first before attcking paypal. .Its just better to persuade paypal to get those new unified banking license and offer whole bouquet of services using PAN/TAN/TIN nos to record everything ! Just stopping 90% of paypal use since we do not have an infra is super lame and I know this is to protect the corrupt private banks like ICICI, HDFC etc ! Anyways I hope these corrupt exorbitant charges domestic banks just to give those high handed multi million bonuses either upgrade themselves or get lost !
Lets take it step by step:

- Paypal was a "legit" way to bypass any scrutinity, the other ways you are talking about are not legit. Do not mix corruption with the current argument.

- Telecommunication is regulated, and is an essential service. Paypal is not regulated and is not essential an essential service.

- Billions of dollars sitting in Cayman island is not in RBI jurisdiction, but Paypal's Indian transaction is in RBI's direction. AND FYI, US has put the swiss banks in enormous pressure, so much that they had disclosed the so called "secret a/c's" in 2009. Cayman islands is not far behind the big bad US net.

- Stopping Paypal's transactions is not helping the so called "corrupt private banks". BTW why are you stinging the private banks, sure they might have a few nasty customer unfriendly services, but its the PSU which funds the bureaucratic corruption..

- No one is happy on the taxes. But the government has to fund the infrastructure spending. If you are not happy in the government spending, dont vote for the current government (yeah UPA is very good at mis-management). Taxes are here to stay, be happy that they are not in 1970's level (90% during the emergency)

- It was cheap shot, but I was trying to put across a point. Go out and see, the BPL are not benefiting at all, it is the corrupt system which is benefiting. Dont blame the idea, but blame the execution (another below the belt shot to UPA) :)
 

Supra

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@rite ---Plz quote from the reports....all this Wiki links everyone is aware of already :D

Lets see the PAT nos from some reputed companies :)

- It was cheap shot, but I was trying to put across a point. Go out and see, the BPL are not benefiting at all, it is the corrupt system which is benefiting. Dont blame the idea, but blame the execution (another below the belt shot to UPA)
Well at least since now the subsidy amount is to be credited to BPL acconts directly I think that should fine :)

But main problem is implementing any regulation w/o causing much public inconvenience. RBI is an organization which is run on Taxpayer's money....they r not doing any favour for us....we know how good India's monetary policy is and how they are screwing us everyday by the money we pay them. We pay through our nose for orgs like RBI to run efficiently and not to cause any inconvenience to us. Same goes for TRAI, SEBi etc all of whom are only there to bail out the bigwigs and support big corporations while screwing the tax payers which unstable, random policies :)

For eg...I dont support the very expensive 3G auction which might have raked lot of moolah , but its the taxpayers who will again pay through the nose to enjoy the 3G services ! Now if at all these was used to reduce the fiscal deficit by some more %, I would have understood, but all I see again is same huge infra spending (which will end up where u know----20% commission business)....rather if they want to keep inflation in control they should keep the money flowing into the system a bit in check. Let the growth nos be down from 9 to 8% , but if by that we can get food inflation down to 8-9% from current 15-18%, that would make a hell lot of citizens and honest tax payers and poor people and of course aam admi happy ! UPA has forgotten fully where it wanted to start from :(
 

blr_p

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Aces170 said:
Paypal is under fire for facilitating terrorist money in a lot of developed countries,
hmm...see few hits on google about it.

What's the maximum you can transfer / hold in a paypal acct btw ?

Aces170 said:
so why is RBI wrong here?
Are you confirming thats the reason RBI has done it ? I thought the reason RBI did it was not established yet.

Aces170 said:
These guys are acting like banks without the regulations of a bank. Sure it is an inconvenience, but I am for once happy on the RBI move.
So what, the risk is on the user.

Who do you trust ? the market or the govt :)

The reason that hawala is the cheapest way in the world to transfer funds is because it has no govt oversight. Its pure market & private enterprise.

The way things work is if the govt does not get a cut out of a transaction they deem it illegal. Then try to show its used for illegal activities. Same old crap.

Aces170 said:
Paypal is one of the most un-ethical company in the world, and if this move makes facilitating terrorist funding tougher, so be it.
Very strong statement, what is your basis for it ?
 

rite

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You don't know basic GK in that case.

The tax for any pvt ltd or ltd company is 30% on net profits. PERIOD! This is the flat rate.

Just like income tax after 5 lacs is 30% flat for individuals with some deductions here and there. Similarly corporate tax is 30% flat and another 17% for dividends.

No point arguing beyond a point. Open a company and challenge the Govt if you have the guts, you will know the exact figures then! Or just call somebody who is educated preferably a CA, everybody knows this stuff!
 

blr_p

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Aces170 said:
- Paypal was a "legit" way to bypass any scrutinity, the other ways you are talking about are not legit. Do not mix corruption with the current argument.
How does this scrutiny benefit the citizen ?

Govt getting in your face never helps, when they step aside and let you do your job you are always better off.

Aces170 said:
- Telecommunication is regulated, and is an essential service. Paypal is not regulated and is not essential an essential service.
And ?

Aces170 said:
- Billions of dollars sitting in Cayman island is not in RBI jurisdiction, but Paypal's Indian transaction is in RBI's direction. AND FYI, US has put the swiss banks in enormous pressure, so much that they had disclosed the so called "secret a/c's" in 2009. Cayman islands is not far behind the big bad US net.
There was never any dispute that govt wasn't within its power to do this, govts can tax you, jail you and even kill you.

the question was WHY :)

Aces170 said:
- No one is happy on the taxes. But the government has to fund the infrastructure spending. If you are not happy in the government spending, dont vote for the current government (yeah UPA is very good at mis-management). Taxes are here to stay, be happy that they are not in 1970's level (90% during the emergency)
Well, if taxes ever reach that amount, can you imagine which idiot would declare his full income. The money would run out of the country at the first instance. That is the first casualty of high tax regimes, money is outside the country rather than inside the country where it can be put to use for our benefit instead of some foreigners benefit. Money staying in the country is to our benefit but not through compulsion but because there is an incentive.

When it was half that the amount. Evasion was still rampant. Thats why they simplified the procedure and lowered taxes. This is why govt has money now and had nothing when taxes were double or more.
 

Supra

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You don't know basic GK in that case.

The tax for any pvt ltd or ltd company is 30% on net profits. PERIOD! This is the flat rate.

Just like income tax after 5 lacs is 30% flat for individuals with some deductions here and there. Similarly corporate tax is 30% flat and another 17% for dividends.

No point arguing beyond a point. Open a company and challenge the Govt if you have the guts, you will know the exact figures then! Or just call somebody who is educated preferably a CA, everybody knows this stuff!
OK saar...I dont have GK....your GK is too good as known in our past TE posts :D :rofl:...and you are always rite :lmao:

Paypal is one of the most un-ethical company in the world
I thought ICICI bank broke it last week :rofl:
 

MAGNeT

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rite said:
It is like, if you have a net profit of Rs.100

Rs.30 is the direct tax.

Balance Rs.70.

Now to distribute this Rs.70 amongst the shareholders, there is a 17% tax on this Rs.70.

So this is another Rs.12 or so.

So what you are left with is Rs.58 or so of the initial Rs.100.

And tax is worse in USA. It isn't easier there either!

However, for small enterprises I believe a tax of like 10-20% all inclusive makes more sense, rather than 30%+17% total 42%+!
There is a flaw in your thesis and logic coming to a figure....

Now take same example.

First direct tax ,you say 30 rs i say 33.9 take it 34 with surcharge and cess..SO 34% out of 100 gone.

Now you say 70 rs distribute among shareholders.DO you know company has to keep money aside for its growth no company distribute the remaining money as dividend.Its basically 10% of remaining amount which companies pays dividend on.Also its not compulsory for them to pay.so 10% of 70 is 7 Rs.Even if i take 20% tax on this money its 1.4 Rs.So total tax goes 35.4%.And 42% is a bit higher figure.

Now what you are telling is on individual level corporate level this taxes applies.Now take example of Reliance the company earns around 16000 to 20000 crore rupees of cash in hand in a financial year after cutting all expense ,salary,loan repaid for debts.Still Mukesh ambani Salary though highest by any individual in the country is around 50 crore rupees.Which is less than 0.5% of the money in hand .On which this rates applies.Same for other individual of this company.Why is it so.Even on this money how can he built antilla.If he pays no tax on this 50 crore and doesnt spend a penny still to make antilla he needs 80 years that too inflation at same levels.Obvious no individual wants to pay anything above 15-20 rs as tax if he earns 100.WHat they do is keep there salary low and use perks and ESOP and share conversion option to the fullest.They themselves introduce warrants and gift them.ANd after a year as it turn long term convert them to shares (i don't know the exact modus operandi)but sell that and convert it to cash tax free.ALso this SEZ and other units which comes up some of them from a long time were getting or is getting tax holidays.

Will the government gift us (you and me)same tax holiday.Ofcourse not.

Anyways this is turning out of topic .But please have clear funda or dont share your incomplete fundas.
 

rite

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Small companies those with profits in single digit crores will prefer to distribute everything as dividends!
 

MAGNeT

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rite said:
Small companies those with profits in single digit crores will prefer to distribute everything as dividends!
Give example dont type just for the sake you have keyboard.

I gave an example of reliance show your numbers.
 

Hacker

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MAGNeT said:
Even on this money how can he built antilla.If he pays no tax on this 50 crore and doesnt spend a penny still to make antilla he needs 80 years that too inflation at same levels.Obvious no individual wants to pay anything above 15-20 rs as tax if he earns 100.WHat they do is keep there salary low and use perks and ESOP and share conversion option to the fullest.They themselves introduce warrants and gift them.ANd after a year as it turn long term convert them to shares (i don't know the exact modus operandi)but sell that and convert it to cash tax free.
Maybe he used some funds from Reliance's account to pay for the building.

When you say they themselves gift warrants, so what, its legal (yes I know it can be abused too)
MAGNeT said:
ALso this SEZ and other units which comes up some of them from a long time were getting or is getting tax holidays.

Will the government gift us (you and me)same tax holiday.Ofcourse not.
No the government wont give us tax holiday but because of those sez's and tax holidays, it attracts FDI to India, encourages foreign firms to open shop in India which provides jobs to millions(including me) in India.
Coming back to the topic, someone on TE had posted a link where it says that why its good for Indians to have RBI regulate paypal. Before reading that link I was pissed off at RBI too but the article made some very good points and now I am not so pissed off at RBI. (cant find the link to the article :(
 

MAGNeT

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Hacker said:
Maybe he used some funds from Reliance's account to pay for the building.

When you say they themselves gift warrants, so what, its legal (yes I know it can be abused too)
Yes its from reliance account as i said if he fund from his salary it will take 80 years even though if he doesnt spend a penny from that and also dont pay tax on it plus inflation remain same as today after 80 years.He made offices in the building hence he can claim expense from the business as cost.No point going in the intricacies as we know he can hire the best CA brains of this world to finance such stuffs.

No the government wont give us tax holiday but because of those sez's and tax holidays, it attracts FDI to India, encourages foreign firms to open shop in India which provides jobs to millions(including me) in India.
FDI source of money?I remembered sometimes back there was news reliance getting foreign investment(during dhirubhai and even when anil parted out) coming from Seychelles and cayman island(sorry if i pronounce it wrong).In short they are/were the best place to hide black money.In short funds transferred abroad without paying tax and than invest the same amount in your company as a foreigner and dont pay taxes on it and later buy that company and again claim it as expense for business growth and go tax free.Anyways its going too much out of context.

As i said they hire best brains of this world.

One of my friend says Mukesh have more than 12 passports with him which is always ready his car at various cities of this country as you never know when he have to make foreign trip.This is the power this big-wigs have(i cant confirm this stuff as its just said by my friend but there is every reason to believe it) .
 

blr_p

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Hacker said:
Coming back to the topic, someone on TE had posted a link where it says that why its good for Indians to have RBI regulate paypal. Before reading that link I was pissed off at RBI too but the article made some very good points and now I am not so pissed off at RBI. (cant find the link to the article :(
Does anyone know where this article is ?
 

6pack

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One of my friend says Mukesh have more than 12 passports with him which is always ready his car at various cities of this country as you never know when he have to make foreign trip.This is the power this big-wigs have(i cant confirm this stuff as its just said by my friend but there is every reason to believe it) .
why not keep one on his person/ pocket all the time instead of distributing 12 in his various cars? :S And isn't keeping more than one passport illegal in India?
 

blr_p

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gaganjain said:
Thx for this, now let's see what it says.

So you are basically saying that these new changes by PayPal is just about screwing the RBI, Indian Government and people who use their service.
This a highly misleading statement, paypal is working within the rules & limits as stipulated by the RBI. In the end Paypal is free to choose how they do business just as anyone is free not to use their service.

So as you can see, from the above conversation which came through from a horse’s mouth, I feel that PayPal is basically cheating the RBI, Indian government and Indian users because they don’t want to be regulated.
Utter BS, classic mistake of conflating regulations avoidance with regulations evasion. Avoiding regulations isn't illegal, evading is, just like with taxes, the same tired charge gets trotted out.

I support the choice of companies that do whatever to avoid being regulated. All regulations do is decreae profit and increase costs for everybody concerned just so some govt critter gets to lord over them.

How the heck is paypal going to work in as many countries as it does with differing sets of regulations for each one. And since these creatures change on an annual basis, track them to remain compliant, EVERYWHERE. Obviously, it won't be tenable. If you think their fees are high now then if they ever allow themselves to be regulated expect to pay a great deal more. Actually, they will close shop as they won't be able to compete with banks anywhere in the world. Bye bye paypal.

They are not a bank and have no intention to ever become one.

Instead ask yourself why does the RBI see fit to know if you receive more than $500 ?

What is the reason for this arbitrary amount, why isn't it $100 or $1000. What pray tell is the CORRECT amount.

That's your bottleneck right there. What this ex-RBI employee has conveniently neglected to mention is how restrictive the RBI in India is compared to central banks elsewhere. They should butt out and concern themselves with keeping inflation in check instead of sticking their noses in everybody's business.

SMASH the regulations, let the money flow, let us be in charge of our own financial destinies :)
 

Keane 16

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Agree with everything Aces170 said on page 1. PayPal is one of the most devious and unethical firms on the planet. No morality, no liability. Someone big needs to step in and break their stronghold on online payments.
 

Supra

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^^ 100% Correct ! But what RBI is doing is not much useful ! Why can't they rather concentrate on the rates and inflation ! Big Central bank...BIG Money just sitting on pile of cash. Have they done any fruitful research till date worth getting international recognition ? They are just tied up with all the undertable pile of cash paid by ICICI/HDFC and other pvt banks ! What abt the corporate/industrial loan scam...did they do something abt it ! Nthing ...they cant actually :D...afterall they can never be independent :) above the ministers !