Unless Indians give up this idea of gandhian (and marxist) nonsense of peaceful coexistence (which in most cases is a cover for their cowardice), they are doomed in the long run.
Cowardice or innocence ?

What experience of war do we have, really ? partition is possibly the most traumatic experience we have had in recent memory.

The two world wars never reached us. We never got bombed to the extent Europe or Japan or even Vietnam did.

All our other wars were border wars that didn't really get very deep. '65 has its moments but that's about it.

Thought of the day
No sane person wants war

No sane person ignores ongoing war for 30 years
 
No dead or injured in hospitals = no causalities. The training in the mosque had stopped years back according to western intelligence. This means India's intelligence is extremely lacking. This raid was a huge failure which shouldn't have been done at all!! All it did was make India look like fools now.

Do you understand now why evidence is hard to come by ?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

Eyewitnesses say IAF air strike in Balakot killed dozens of Jaish terrorists, a former ISI agent, ex-Pak army men
“There’s no doubt that bombs hit their targets,” a senior intelligence official said. “Though some of the numbers that have been appearing in the media are hyperbolic, I think the raid served its purpose, which was to make a point about our ability to strike at terrorist safe-havens, rather than extract revenge.” Some television channels reported that 300 people had been killed in the strike.
^this

There is no question of revenge which is illegal, pre-emptive strikes are legal.

Govt never said 300, India today did :)
 
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And I disagree with fixed deposit affecting more people than people with home loans! Way more people's have loans than fixed deposit.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the cluelessness in saying that more people have home loans than bank deposits. Do you even understand the utter lack of common sense in what you are saying?

Literally anybody with Rs 500 to spare per month can walk in and open a recurring deposit. Almost every retiree will have bank deposits or postal savings schemes Same goes for most people with some sort of income. Only a minute fraction of the people have home loans. There are not many people in this country who can afford to get a home loan or have the eligibility for one. You need to get in touch with reality.[DOUBLEPOST=1551581655][/DOUBLEPOST]
People asked proofs for surgical strikes too. When given no body apologized for calling it an fake vote bank politics.
Just saying

Ever bothered to read through the Fundamental duties of a citizen of India? The fundamental duties require that you question everything and not accept any thing at face value.
 
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I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the cluelessness in saying that more people have home loans than bank deposits. Do you even understand the utter lack of common sense in what you are saying?

Literally anybody with Rs 500 to spare per month can walk in and open a recurring deposit. Almost every retiree will have bank deposits or postal savings schemes Same goes for most people with some sort of income. Only a minute fraction of the people have home loans. There are not many people in this country who can afford to get a home loan or have the eligibility for one. You need to get in touch with reality.[DOUBLEPOST=1551581655][/DOUBLEPOST]

Ever bothered to read through the Fundamental duties of a citizen of India? The fundamental duties require that you question everything and not accept any thing at face value.
Fan you verify this if it's true?
http://drishtikone.com/2019/03/sate...f-destruction-of-jaish-e-mohammad-structures/
 
@rushab_rdx
People asked proofs for surgical strikes too. When given no body apologized for calling it an fake vote bank politics.
Just saying

Those videos were released months after the strikes. Months = enough time to hack some footage from here and there to make it look real. No wonder people called it fake. If this strike is real and they manage to release the footage after everyone forgets about it, no one will apologize for it. Strike when the iron is hot and not when it has cooled down and frozen stiff. After a month or so everyone will forget about this and if at that time these people show some grainy footage, it won't make it look real.

@blr_p
Why is Pakistan complaining to the UN about Indian aggression then.
They have always been complaining from years for every little thing they started. You're asking that question like its something new to them.

Why do they then try to hit us back with their jets.
Are you serious? Any country will hit India with jets if India did the same to them - go into their airspace and bomb some innocent village.


Denials from Hafez the Horrible & Masood the Monster. Where are they ?
Why would they deny? Have they denied anything till now?

Which western govt has condemned these strikes ?
You cant even google search now?

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nat...r-attack-extend-support-to-india-1939608.html
48 countries condemn Pulwama terror attack, extend support to India.

Western nations - USA, France, Germany, UK, Canada, France, Australia, Japan and many more.

You're being played just like you were with the rafale scam.
I'm not being played, you're the one who's acting all ignorant and trying to ask tangential questions which have no relation to the post I made about India being bad in intelligence department and not hitting the target. All these stupid ignorant questions you are asking has no relation at all to that post.
You are just trying you're hardest to shift the topic from failure of the govt and armed forces to some other topic.

You don't want to show your capabilities to the enemy. Former air chief said that on a recent interview. Listen
There is no goof up at all. In fact its quite the contrary.
When the foreign secretary makes the statement it is announcing to the whole world what we did.
I believe whatever the IAF said they did.

Believe whatever you want with a closed mind and stay ignorant of the facts. Armed forces and govt always hide the facts and what they say does not necessarily mean the truth. They can lie like its second nature to them because that comes with their position. Can't destroy the country's image in front of the world because they want to stick to ethics.

It was a HUGE risk to take so close to the election with a hundred things that could go wrong. That is why in and out in twenty minutes. Imagine if they shot any of the mirages down. If we were unable to repel the Pak counter attack. That is the risk Modi took.

So now its because of Modi and not because of the martyred soldiers or teaching Pakistan a lesson?

We have to keep our guard up now for the next three months. There can be surprises.
Whats so special in next three months? Pakistan always has been pounding villages in Indian part of Kashmir since ages. One or two elections makes no difference to them. India has always had to be on alert all through out the year.

Are you kidding me. The Paks are on notice now over what we can do to them.
Didn't the first surgical strike show them what we can do?

This has been a huge eye opener to our own political class.
It has set the standard that every leader will have to follow.
Truly, a defining moment if somewhat late because previous leaders were not bold enough.

Eye opener on how not to mess up during such operations in Pakistan and make a fool of the country.
By standard you mean - how to not look so stupid? yup. No one did such a thing before because they knew they couldn't rely on the intelligence 100%. That was thrown to the wind by the BJP who thought too much of themselves and pushed their luck and are getting brickbats now.


From that Eyewitnesses say IAF air strike in Balakot killed dozens of Jaish terrorists, a former ISI agent, ex-Pak army men link I saw this another link
https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/were-indias-airstrikes-in-pakistan-a-strategy-for-public-approval/

However, based on the available evidence—satellite imagery, official statements, and reported leaks to the media—it appears plausible that India’s strikes in Pakistan were designed primarily to placate a domestic audience while simultaneously limiting escalation by not targeting built-up areas and causing substantial casualties. India’s upcoming election placed significant pressure on Prime Minister Narendra Modi to act in retaliation for the Pulwama attack. There was a requirement to balance the domestic desire for a strong response with the risk of a broader military conflict that would be costly for both countries.

That is right on target about what these stupid for show attack was. To placate the stupid people of India.
 
@rushab_rdx
People asked proofs for surgical strikes too. When given no body apologized for calling it an fake vote bank politics.
Just saying

Those videos were released months after the strikes. Months = enough time to hack some footage from here and there to make it look real. No wonder people called it fake. If this strike is real and they manage to release the footage after everyone forgets about it, no one will apologize for it. Strike when the iron is hot and not when it has cooled down and frozen stiff. After a month or so everyone will forget about this and if at that time these people show some grainy footage, it won't make it look real.

@blr_p
Why is Pakistan complaining to the UN about Indian aggression then.
They have always been complaining from years for every little thing they started. You're asking that question like its something new to them.

Why do they then try to hit us back with their jets.
Are you serious? Any country will hit India with jets if India did the same to them - go into their airspace and bomb some innocent village.


Denials from Hafez the Horrible & Masood the Monster. Where are they ?
Why would they deny? Have they denied anything till now?

Which western govt has condemned these strikes ?
You cant even google search now?

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nat...r-attack-extend-support-to-india-1939608.html
48 countries condemn Pulwama terror attack, extend support to India.

Western nations - USA, France, Germany, UK, Canada, France, Australia, Japan and many more.

You're being played just like you were with the rafale scam.
I'm not being played, you're the one who's acting all ignorant and trying to ask tangential questions which have no relation to the post I made about India being bad in intelligence department and not hitting the target. All these stupid ignorant questions you are asking has no relation at all to that post.
You are just trying you're hardest to shift the topic from failure of the govt and armed forces to some other topic.

You don't want to show your capabilities to the enemy. Former air chief said that on a recent interview. Listen
There is no goof up at all. In fact its quite the contrary.
When the foreign secretary makes the statement it is announcing to the whole world what we did.
I believe whatever the IAF said they did.

Believe whatever you want with a closed mind and stay ignorant of the facts. Armed forces and govt always hide the facts and what they say does not necessarily mean the truth. They can lie like its second nature to them because that comes with their position. Can't destroy the country's image in front of the world because they want to stick to ethics.

It was a HUGE risk to take so close to the election with a hundred things that could go wrong. That is why in and out in twenty minutes. Imagine if they shot any of the mirages down. If we were unable to repel the Pak counter attack. That is the risk Modi took.

So now its because of Modi and not because of the martyred soldiers or teaching Pakistan a lesson?

We have to keep our guard up now for the next three months. There can be surprises.
Whats so special in next three months? Pakistan always has been pounding villages in Indian part of Kashmir since ages. One or two elections makes no difference to them. India has always had to be on alert all through out the year.

Are you kidding me. The Paks are on notice now over what we can do to them.
Didn't the first surgical strike show them what we can do?

This has been a huge eye opener to our own political class.
It has set the standard that every leader will have to follow.
Truly, a defining moment if somewhat late because previous leaders were not bold enough.

Eye opener on how not to mess up during such operations in Pakistan and make a fool of the country.
By standard you mean - how to not look so stupid? yup. No one did such a thing before because they knew they couldn't rely on the intelligence 100%. That was thrown to the wind by the BJP who thought too much of themselves and pushed their luck and are getting brickbats now.


From that Eyewitnesses say IAF air strike in Balakot killed dozens of Jaish terrorists, a former ISI agent, ex-Pak army men link I saw this another link
https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/were-indias-airstrikes-in-pakistan-a-strategy-for-public-approval/



That is right on target about what these stupid for show attack was. To placate the stupid people of India.
It's INDIAN ARMY . Not these people brother
 
It's INDIAN ARMY . Not these people brother

these people = who? govt? air force?

my statement still stands though. who ever releases footage after the entire world forgets the incident will not be seen as telling the truth. In this age of false news and doctored news, the faster the evidence comes out the faster the false doctored news will be squashed. If the govt or air force waits for 3-4 months and then releases footage, no one will believe it. Everyone will ask why it took so long? Even YT videos come out in minutes now or get live streamed in 4k resolution. Releasing grainy 480p video after months does not lend to credibility.
 
these people = who? govt? air force?

my statement still stands though. who ever releases footage after the entire world forgets the incident will not be seen as telling the truth. In this age of false news and doctored news, the faster the evidence comes out the faster the false doctored news will be squashed. If the govt or air force waits for 3-4 months and then releases footage, no one will believe it. Everyone will ask why it took so long? Even YT videos come out in minutes now or get live streamed in 4k resolution. Releasing grainy 480p video after months does not lend to credibility.
I'm really very weak at debating buddy I just told you whatever I feel my English is shit. Blpr is better hell Carry on. Just a thing . Can you or anybody verify the drishtikone article I sent?
 
Govt never said 300, India today did :)

And where did the media get the figure of 300 from, given that there was no independent reporting in the area? Also, consider how soon after the attack they got the info.

No doubt, govt. sources 'leaked' the info to the press. Once enough people started believing the 300 figure (takes 10 minutes) they reverted to the official stand of no figure. The effect damage is done. Everyone in India now believes 300 regardless of what the media or govt now says.

People need to open their eyes and see through all this BS. But sheep don't use their brains...[DOUBLEPOST=1551594427][/DOUBLEPOST]
Truly, a defining moment if somewhat late because previous leaders were not bold enough.

hahahahhahaha.

Truly, a defining moment if somewhat late because previous leaders were not bold insane/evil/egomaniacal enough.

FTFY[DOUBLEPOST=1551594997][/DOUBLEPOST]
Supports BJP so long as BJP is in office. If they don't manage to hold on i will then have to support what comes next.

Explains a LOT.
 
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Before:

Screenshot_2019-03-03_12-45-48.png


After:
Screenshot_2019-03-03_12-45-19.png


I think this might be the place that was bombed, not sure since its really hard to do independent search with out the right co-ordinates. These pics are from what co-ordinates I got from the article rushab linked to. After screenshot clearly shows dents in ground where bombs would have dropped and those are quite far off from the building. I don't know if the building was destroyed by bombs or it was dismantled etc. Al those grey things look like those broken stones that are used to make cement. Probably you can even see a jcb in after pic, not sure.

Edit: Forgot to add, there is a masjid nearby, but its too small to hold a training camp compared to the complex in this pic. I didn't think the area was so populated though. Google shows more houses, trees etc than the Microsoft map which looks like the place is devoid of anything.
 
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Sadly, some of you guys have not even heard todays news. Where the brother of Masood Azhar has said that there Jihadi terrorist camp was attacked and has asked for retaliation.

Secondly the stupid photos being shown by sites like Al Jazeera and others in India show a explosion site, which does not even look to be a 100 kg bomb. Those that have seen the Pulwama CCTV video have seen what 300-400 kgs of home made explosives can do. Imagine what a 1000 kg military bomb can do.
 
Dear Govt.,

SUB: Militant deaths in air strikes at Balakot


Pics or it didn't happen.​


Regards,

Indian public
 
And where did the media get the figure of 300 from, given that there was no independent reporting in the area? Also, consider how soon after the attack they got the info.
It's speculative. Some media channels ran with that number. They do this all the time. We only find out when experts comment on them.

No doubt, govt. sources 'leaked' the info to the press. Once enough people started believing the 300 figure (takes 10 minutes) they reverted to the official stand of no figure. The effect damage is done. Everyone in India now believes 300 regardless of what the media or govt now says.
Govt sources leaked info here and there. But they never officially mentioned a figure. The FS said high number.

The 300 number isn't tenable. I've posted a report whose figures are lower but more credible.

People need to open their eyes and see through all this BS. But sheep don't use their brains...
What exactly is the BS here ?

You don't deny the strikes took place. Do you ?

Explains a LOT.
Explains what ?

i don't care what the opposition says in any country. They don't make policy and only come out with false narratives to confuse people. Not always but most of the time. Only people that don't like the ruling party support the opposition.
 
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Before:

View attachment 78971

After:
View attachment 78970

I think this might be the place that was bombed, not sure since its really hard to do independent search with out the right co-ordinates. These pics are from what co-ordinates I got from the article rushab linked to. After screenshot clearly shows dents in ground where bombs would have dropped and those are quite far off from the building. I don't know if the building was destroyed by bombs or it was dismantled etc. Al those grey things look like those broken stones that are used to make cement. Probably you can even see a jcb in after pic, not sure.

Edit: Forgot to add, there is a masjid nearby, but its too small to hold a training camp compared to the complex in this pic. I didn't think the area was so populated though. Google shows more houses, trees etc than the Microsoft map which looks like the place is devoid of anything.
Can't use that for proof unfortunately
 
This thread is full of hilarity. One of them has been use of poor reporting to make a case.

People keep using the reports based on "residents of Balakot" as proof nothing happened. Sure. Why not trust people from a region which has been indicated as being hotbed of terrorists.

This what I was able to pull up with a simple google search:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balakot#Terror_training_camps

Lots of articles from Indian newspapers but here's one from 2016 on a US site:

https://theintercept.com/2016/11/19...ornia-sleeper-cell-case-continues-to-unravel/

About two weeks before trial, prosecutors met in Sacramento with an analyst from the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, which works closely with the CIA to analyze satellite imagery. The NGA analyst planned to testify about satellite images of a location that matched the coordinates for the Kalas Camp, a militant training facility that seemed to fit Hayat’s first description of the camp. It was located a few miles outside of Balakot, up a zigzagging road through a dense forest. An intelligence report by the NGA claimed the camp had closed in 2002 but that it reopened in the spring of 2003.

However, a CIA analyst believed that Hayat had attended a different camp, a place called the Ichrian Camp. Ichrian is a small village located in roughly the same region as Balakot. A disagreement among experts may not seem that unusual, except for one thing: The defense never knew about the disagreement and neither did the jury, because the prosecution never disclosed it to the defense.

If the camp is few miles outside of Balakot in the mountains, it is entirely possible to not see any damages on the town. But away from it. So, I am amazed at some of the amateur detective work going on.

The funniest of the sources has been this one:
https://www.thehindu.com/news/inter...s-it-bombed/article26404918.ece?homepage=true

"Western diplomats in Islamabad also said they did not believe the Indian air force hit a militant camp." That is such a low level effort trying to throw shade. If there were diplomats really saying this, they wouldn't need "pakistani village" to discredit the strikes and the article might have said "Western Diplomats ask where is the proof of air strikes".

As for the proofs from Indian government. People weren't happy with the surgical strike videos. So, what chances are they will be happy with satellite images? They might even go on another amateur detective reasoning spree about how the image from Pakistan doesn't line up with the satellite images from India. What then? Another round of "proofs required"? Maybe we can deploy the army for some DSLR grade pics.

It is always said "Negatives cannot be proven". So, if people think strikes did NOT happen/hit target etc then they cannot be dis-proven no matter what. It is impossible to prove otherwise.

So, my take is that let people hold their own opinion and let's move this thread forward.
 
I was looking at Ichirian a few hours back on Google Maps. If you think that is a small militant camp or has semblance to a militant camp look for it on Google maps. Looks like a city. Sorry, I mistook it for Icherrian which is a just nearby and is a big city. btw, look at the topography. Just hard rocky mountains. No amount of bombs will flatten anything there. This is the reason America failed in Afghanistan. You can't bomb mountains and win.

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.5189261,73.222602,1913m/data=!3m1!1e3

Hell, just take google maps and try to find out the scale of the mountains and try to find any evidence of strikes or huge craters. Those images i posted could be misleading the more I think about them. Even those small craters could just be small huts. Because I find more such similar shapes inside jungles etc.

If you want to see good resolution pics without too much colour, then that Zoom one is good because they dont even overlay names or boundaries on the sat images. Its like looking from a plane. Plus they have option to look at images from previous days too. I have doubts that they are only updating high altitude pics and not updating low level pics because I saw a lot of mismatch between the Zoom image and Google Maps in amount of buildings and amount of trees. Google seems to be more updated. So maybe in my pic above, the before one is more updated than the after one which could just be normal construction pics of some housing complex. There is no boundary walls etc there, so looks like many months old outdated pics compared to the google one. Cant rely on Zoom to give any evidence.
I can now feel while the pilots could have missed the place due to low visibility.
 
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"Western diplomats in Islamabad also said they did not believe the Indian air force hit a militant camp." That is such a low level effort trying to throw shade. If there were diplomats really saying this, they wouldn't need "pakistani village" to discredit the strikes and the article might have said "Western Diplomats ask where is the proof of air strikes".

I would be wary of a news article which had unnamed western diplomats as a source.

We should also be skeptical of relying on western intelligence sources who have been responsible for deliberate disinformation (Iraq comes to mind). Why should they be considered credible or objective?
 
As for the proofs from Indian government. People weren't happy with the surgical strike videos. So, what chances are they will be happy with satellite images? They might even go on another amateur detective reasoning spree about how the image from Pakistan doesn't line up with the satellite images from India. What then? Another round of "proofs required"? Maybe we can deploy the army for some DSLR grade pics.

It is always said "Negatives cannot be proven". So, if people think strikes did NOT happen/hit target etc then they cannot be dis-proven no matter what. It is impossible to prove otherwise.

So, my take is that let people hold their own opinion and let's move this thread forward.
True, this is probably part of the reason the govt is witholding info. Taken to the extreme no evidence provided by India has ever been sufficient for Pakistan to do anything. There was an all party meeting called by Sushma on the 26th, i think they would have provided whatever clarifications to the extent possible at the time then. Too bad it will not be made public.

There was a report in IE yesterday which quoted some source saying we never crossed the LoC. Standoff weapons used have a range of around 100km meaning could be aimed, fired from our side of the border.

I then started looking at official sources and i can't find any official source that says we did cross the LoC

The proof here is the DG ISPR letting out that we crossed LoC and dropped something at Balakote and the Pak FM saying we committed a LoC violation.
 
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