Pulwama attack


Julian

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BTW the cross-border raid did happen but you are going into semantics a bit too much.
I'm saying that's exactly the opposite of a surgical strike. Someone probably thought it's cool because the US does it using drones (which themselves often have way too much collateral to be called surgical), and decided to term every exercise by the military surgical strike. and then they made a goddamn movie on it. Whatever it takes to rile up the masses and keep the arms deals going...
 

Marcus Fenix

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Also, the media reported that azhar ordered the strike from an army hospital and immediately the response from people was bomb the hospital in order to kill him.

If someone condones bombing a hospital, albeit an army one, how does that make us any better than them?

People need to tone down the rabid knee-jerk reactions and use their brains about how to respond.
This is the same sort of stuff that the US used to modulate popular opinion before invading Iraq which created a bigger problem with ISIS.
Fortunately the Russians had the sense to side with Bashar.
A tyrant who does domestic human rights violations is far better than a terrorist organization with international aspirations.
Killing Azhar would be a tactical solution for soothing some internet keyboard warriors and dharna people but it will do f**kall for the strategic problem.

I think this will play out the same as in case of the Uri response.
 
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Lord Nemesis

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Surgical strike just means that it is a well planned, precise and focused attack that inflicts max damage to only the intended target and no zero collateral damage. There is not need for Air strikes etc. Its just that Air strikes are often used as part of the strategy.
 

Mr.J

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If someone condones bombing a hospital, albeit an army one, how does that make us any better than them?
That just makes us American. Yee-HAW!

Q: Whats the difference between a terrorist training camp and a hospital?

A: I don't know man, I'm just a drone operator.
 

Julian

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Surgical strike just means that it is a well planned, precise and focused attack that inflicts max damage to only the intended target and no zero collateral damage. There is not need for Air strikes etc. Its just that Air strikes are often used as part of the strategy.
We (and pak) have been cross-border shelling and conduction incursion exercises on each other for decades now. How is this suddenly surgical? There was no precision and focus, there were no specific individual targets eliminated. Whatever. People will keep hyping irrelevant things that just happen to be popular in the media while ignoring the serious topics.

Why was uri not a lesson to us? What did we do after that? Other than making a damn movie on it. Why was our security not increased? Usually us Indians are great at scrambling after something goes wrong. But we didn't really do jack after uri is what this attack proves. And everyone was harping about rafale. How would rafale have helped us in this case? The military needs less politician ass kissing psychopathic bureaucratic leaders, and more men of less words and strong action, and some level of independence from the politicos.[DOUBLEPOST=1550428059][/DOUBLEPOST]And people are talking about another goddamn bandh!! What will that achieve other than reduce the economy for that day? Instead they should donate a day's earnings or volunteer to serve or something constructive. If it takes shutting down the country to achieve unity, then god help us. trump shutting down the us govt to build the wall makes more sense...[DOUBLEPOST=1550428171][/DOUBLEPOST]
That just makes us American. Yee-HAW!

Q: Whats the difference between a terrorist training camp and a hospital?

A: I don't know man, I'm just a drone operator.
This may be a joke, but the drone pilot has to be literally detached from his orders to do his job however sickening it may be. But these people are actively and knowingly encouraging destroying a hospital to kill one man inside.
 
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Lord Nemesis

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If someone condones bombing a hospital, albeit an army one, how does that make us any better than them?
It doesn't. Which is exactly the point I was making in a earlier post. The people on the other side of the border are just a reflection of the people on this side. There will be good people over there too and there will also be assholes who think nothing of bombing a hospital or nuking a city. We talk about how Pak is sponsoring Terrorism and insurgency in India and a lot of people there may not chose to believe it. Similarly, the people there are told that India sponsors insurgency in Pak and People in India don't believe it. But are we really sure?

India literally aided the cross border terror/insurgency activity of LTTE for years and this included extensive training camps for these extremist organizations being conducted by RAW. Why? because Srilanka was aligned with US and Pak at the time and coupled with the local political pressure from Tamilnadu, the Indira Gandhi govt decided to do it. The LTTE was one of the the first models of a extremist/insurgency outfit with a full fledged military force (Land, Sea and Air force). But at the end of the day, it was still a terror outfit that attacked the armed forces and the civilians alike and even used the very tamils they claimed to be fighting for. They used to tie explosives to innocent little (Tamil) children and sent them to their targets so that they can remotely detonate them. The LTTE became a role model for many other militarized terror/insurgency extremist groups of today.

There is no right or honorable way of waging a constant war over the borders and controlling territory and history is again proof of the kind of dirty tactics used towards that end. It ultimately boils down to a matter of perspective. The other side is always the villain even if our side has the same sort of people.
 

blr_p

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Not accurate here at all.
The Sino-Soviet clashes happened in 1969 whereas China just tested their first warheads in 1964 that too with Soviet help. They didn't have any credible delivery mechanism to threaten USSR. In fact it was a limited war smaller than Kargil. It was more of a pissing contest since Nikita Kruschev basically denounced Stalin's policies and that pissed off Mao a lot as he was pretty chummy with Stalin and used the same Stalinist policies in China.
Nikita pulled military support for the Chinese by middle '56 when it became clear that Mao & him were not getting along. It's this point the thought arises why are we giving them nuclear help :banghead:

The Chinese had to do the rest of the work till they tested in '64. They had enough Russian help up to the mid-fifties to get things done.

in '69, the Russians didn't assume the Chinese could not hit them neither did the Americans when Kargil happened. We know this only because of hindsight. in his book, Musharaf admitted they didn't have the means to deliver those nukes. But Kargil was fought as if nukes were a possibility. Valid examplesof two nuclear power having a limited war.

Don't forget that tensions didn't subside with the Soviets after that clash, they intensified further. I find not much acknowledgement of this in Indian commentary. The Chinese weren't sure if they would see the rest of the 70s. Meaning the Russians were close to nuking them. We know this because Chinese started building nuclear shelters around Beijing expecting the worst.

All other examples you cited here are not between two nuclear powers.

-Korean War between US/UK and allied powers directly engaged North Korea and then later China who were supported indirectly by USSR.
-Vietnam was an insurgency for uniting their country where the French pulled the same divide and rule tactic as in India
-Yom Kippur War of '73 had Egypt and Syria on one hand with USSR support and Israel with US support on another. Even though Israel had nukes by 1968 they have always denied the same.
In fact at at one point in the 73 war Israeli PM Golda Meir thought of using nukes as a last resort but the Israelis managed to turn the tide by conventional warfare.
-Afghanistan in the 80's was the Mujahideen supported by US and Saudi against the USSR. Again both sides weren't nuclear.
Exactly, they are examples of a non-nuclear power fighting a nuclear one and that is to make a point :)

if war between nuclear powers is unlikely then shouldn't there be even less chance of a non-nuclear power fighting a nuclear one ?

If you're interested in military tactics devised by the Indian forces look up the Cold Start doctrine concoted by Sundarji.

A small excerpt here.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/312174708_Indian_Military's_Cold_Start_Doctrine_Capabilities_Limitations_and_Possible_Response_from_Pakistan

This doctrine is a massive headache for the Pakistani military but they have developed tactical nukes which are small nukes designed to hit Indian armored formations after they have penetrated Pakistani borders by about 80 Km and they are unable to push back using conventional means.

These guys are so crazy that they have a policy to nuke their own territory. :O
Their tactical nukes are of limited use against Indian columns moving at them. Watch

The NE didn't have much of a outside support and that outside support from India is precisely the reason Bangladesh exists today.
The LTTE defeat was an ethnic cleansing which we Indians cannot do as a principle .Otherwise how are we better than these dogs?
Moreover the international backlash(which would be absolutely justified) would ruin us and set us back by a decade or more. Think about the 1988 Tianamen Square debacle which halted the Chinese economy to a large extent till they got into the WTO in 2001.
The Khmer Rouge was actively supported by the US during the Vietnam war to act as a counterpoint to the Vietcong.
Once the US left and Pol Pot killed a million people in his country no one from the outside was ready to support them.
Hence the Vietnamese could go in and wipe them out.
NE had Chinese help as they perceived us as helping the Tibetans who had the CIA working with them. We had to bomb Aizawl or we'd lose it.

Point is insurgencies can be tamed as we did in the NE without ethnic cleansing. I don't think anyone disputes this. Remember the hot pursuit into Burma in 2015.

Btw, tianamen debace didn't halt the Chinese economy, it still continued at dbl digit rates because it wasn't the target. China & India had the same size economy in 1990. What allowed the Chinese to get past was the two digit growth rates for a couple of decades.

The most important fallout for China after Tianamen was the west stopped arms sales. That is major otherwise the Chinese would be a much more potent adversary to deal with.

This is pretty scary. Once these guys have a carte blanche all their focus will be on us. Whether we go hard or go soft it won't matter.

Because they believe that martyrdom buys them a Season Pass to heaven.
You can only defeat an enemy by destroying their will to fight. If thats the carrot in front of them then 100 of them are ready to die to kill one of us.
Those are good numbers. We'll bleed them dry. As Patton said you don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by getting the other guy to die for his.

Unlike the 90's we have a fence and a much tighter grid. The Rashtriya rifles will be waiting for them.

They can throw all they want at us but they have to get their guys inside first.

As for the Kargil War it is a bit funny as the Paki army executed the tactical operation superbly but failed at the strategic level.

Think in case of a broader war in the western theater which will always be the focal point of conflict between Indian and Pakistan due to topography if they had pulled a Kargil parallelly then we would have to divert a substantial portion of our combat power which could be deployed in Rajasthan into routing out these guys from Kargil.

That would include a major chunk of the infantry and almost all of our artillery which is darn limited to this day. So tactically you are locking up a large portion of your enemy by only deploying a couple of regiments of light infantry. Pretty neat.

However being the hothead doofuses they are they played their aces up the sleeve too early which would come in handy in case of a broader war.
Other than '71 none of our previous wars were ever allowed to reach their logical conclusions. I see the same thing happening again.

Our leverage right now is economic. They need an IMF bailout within the next six months to a year. We can add conditions for that loan. The Americans are listening. No IMF bailout then no loans from the WB, ADB either. That is their weakness.

Add the FATF on top where they are already greylisted for terror financing and they are in a tight corner. If they fail to meet the conditions to get out of the greylist they end up on the black list. Effectively become North Korea.

The next bit is getting Masod Azhar designated as a terrorist. We did that to hafez Saeed and LeT attacks on India effectively came to an end post 26-11. If we are successful same happens to JeM. But we need to work on the Chinese for that.

Not a single shot has to be fired :)

Apologies for the long post guys. Problem is no one in my circle is interested in geopolitics. So excuse my rant.:)
Join WAB and have at it.
 
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Lord Nemesis

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We (and pak) have been cross-border shelling and conduction incursion exercises on each other for decades now. How is this suddenly surgical? There was no precision and focus, there were no specific individual targets eliminated. Whatever. People will keep hyping irrelevant things that just happen to be popular in the media while ignoring the serious topics.
I was only clarifying what a surgical strike is and that it doesn't require an air attack. I didn't say that our response was a surgical strike. Modi hyping up something to get a chest thumping from people who don't even know what jack shit about our own country, hardly makes it a surgical strike. But still, as people looking at it from outside the military, we don't really know what the goals of the strike were and whether it qualifies as a surgical strike. The point being that there is nothing special about a surgical strike except that its a precise and focused attack with set goals.
 
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blr_p

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Also, the media reported that azhar ordered the strike from an army hospital and immediately the response from people was bomb the hospital in order to kill him.

If someone condones bombing a hospital, albeit an army one, how does that make us any better than them?

People need to tone down the rabid knee-jerk reactions and use their brains about how to respond.
We're not bombing anything, they've pulled their guys further back from the border. They've learned from our last adventure.

We are three months from the election. I have no clue what kinetic option the govt is going to use. I'm starting to think there is none. It will have to wait until after the elections.

If people say but Modi must do something, i will remind you people said the same thing after 26-11 too.

The fact is we are already working on them via non-military means and have been doing so for a few years now.
 

Julian

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I was only clarifying what a surgical strike is and that it doesn't require an air attack. I didn't say that our response was a surgical strike. Modi hyping up something to get a chest thumping from people who don't even know what jack shit about our own country, hardly makes it a surgical strike. But still, as people looking at it from outside the military, we don't really know what the goals of the strike were and whether it qualifies as a surgical strike. The point being that there is nothing special about a surgical strike except that its a precise and focused attack with set goals.
Gotcha. I agree there may be even better ways, especially on the ground. Air attacks always have a high-risk of collateral no matter how precise in theory.

A single special forces operator or unit can take down a target, say like osama. That was a surgical strike. Or it could be a hidden bomb, like a car maybe. But artillery, that too over the border is the worst possible claim of surgical.[DOUBLEPOST=1550429958][/DOUBLEPOST]Pakistan's current economic situation is exactly what puzzles me as to what is their motive? They have nothing to gain and everything to lose by provoking and antagonizing us.

On the other hand, this attack right in between the movie and the elections is perfect timing, politically. Don't want to say more without 'proof'.
 

Julian

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We're not bombing anything, they've pulled their guys further back from the border. They've learned from our last adventure.

We are three months from the election. I have no clue what kinetic option the govt is going to use. I'm starting to think there is none. It will have to wait until after the elections.

If people say but Modi must do something, i will remind you people said the same thing after 26-11 too.

The fact is we are already working on them via non-military means and have been doing so for a few years now.
If we do nothing, then people will soon forget because people are fickle. May not even affect the elections either way.

But if we do nothing, the terrorists will only be emboldened. Doesn't look good for us in the short to medium term.

Maybe modi can get the pak rupee demonetized and throw their economy into shit for a few years too.
 

RS4

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On the other hand, this attack right in between the movie and the elections is perfect timing, politically. Don't want to say more without 'proof'.
Don't be a coward and say openly what you are hinting here, As long as there are Deshdrohis like you in India who speak the exact language as Pakistanis there is no hope for this country. After this cowardly attack, Half the Pakistan was celebrating and another half was hinting what you just said.
 

blr_p

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Pakistan's current economic situation is exactly what puzzles me as to what is their motive? They have nothing to gain and everything to lose by provoking and antagonizing us.
It puzzles me as well. When they are in the crosshairs of the FATF they behave with impunity, not only against us but against Iran recently and Afghanistan. It means they don't care. Why don't they care because maybe they think they are safe. Or they are just being crazy and don't care what happens next. So what if the country goes to the dogs so long as the military is ok.

On the other hand, this attack right in between the movie and the elections is perfect timing, politically. Don't want to say more without 'proof'.
Explain ?

If anything it puts huge pressure on the govt. The converse of what you said is this attack was done to get the Modi govt out. I don't believe it though.

This attack was done because a bunch of kids have been extraordinarily ineffective against the state. They were losing cadres left, right & center. Who wants to sign up to be next.

If they were to retain momentum then a high profile attack was necessary. With the right people for the right effect which is increase recruitment.

Now the threat is this going to continue. But we've forgotten this went on already in the past and we beat it.

https://www.thequint.com/voices/opinion/pulwama-crpf-car-bomb-suicide-attack-security-forces

And so we will beat it again.
 
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Julian

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Don't be a coward and say openly what you are hinting here, As long as there are Deshdrohis like you in India who speak the exact language as Pakistanis there is no hope for this country. After this cowardly attack, Half the Pakistan was celebrating and another half was hinting what you just said.
Oh yeah Mr patriot, what have you done for your country lately?

I meant exactly what i said, i feel the timing is just a little too convenient. Why would i say any more when i can't substantiate it, especially when rabid retards like you keep harping for proof, completely ignoring the concept of high-level cover ups.

I guess you also forgot the ATS was investigating domestic right wing terror groups (are you a member of one since you're so hyped up?) and the sadhvi and purohit were singing loudly. Then 26/11 happened and sadly, the head of the ATS died and that whole investigation fizzled out. Again coincidence right? Or what about the more recent deaths including dabholkar and lankesh? Extremists, whether islamist or not, foreign or domestic, do not hesitate to induce collateral damage to achieve their goals. This classifies them as terrorists. And the very party in charge of our country has clear links to these kinds of extremist groups.

If anything, you're the deshdrohi for condoning and supporting the very people tearing our country to shreds.
 
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Julian

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It puzzles me as well. When they are in the crosshairs of the FATF they behave with impunity, not only against us but against Iran recently and Afghanistan. It means they don't care. Why don't they care because maybe they think they are safe. Or they are just being crazy and don't care what happens next. So what if the country goes to the dogs so long as the military is ok.
Exactly, it makes zero sense that pak would approve of this. My guess is it's independent action, either by the bomber or a small group he was associated with. Probably planned or spurred on from within pak. But i highly doubt it was executed by the govt. Now, the deep state, that's a different game. Who knows what devious logic goes through their brains.

Explain ?
What we might do is carry out another 'surgical strike'. claim xyz victories which no one can independently verify of course, we just have to take their word for it, the sheep will as usual praise modi for being a decisive person, and this will generate mucho electoral points. But in the long run, nothing changes, everything goes on as before. I for one, hope that modi would actually do something about this, it's been going on long enough, but my guess is whatever he does will be all noise and optics without making any difference.
 

blr_p

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Not an american perspective, it is an alternative indian perspective. The kind that isn't very welcome in domestic publications

G. Parthasarthy, India’s former high commissioner to Pakistan, said a possible military response can’t be discussed in public. “We have said that Pakistan will pay a price,” he said. “For obvious reasons we are not going to spell out how that cost would be imposed.”
He has spelled out exactly what we must do here


our leverage is primarily economic

I don't see anything in that article about perfect political timing.Rather i would say it's completely lousy timing

Am still trying to find whether LeT has hit us since 26-11 and not finding any. That UNSC designation is killer if we can get it for Masood Azhar. It means India is off bounds for JeM

For that China will charge something.
 

Julian

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Not an american perspective, it is an alternative indian perspective. The kind that isn't very welcome in domestic publications
Whoops, i was vetting that article when i realised it was written domestically and maybe in pak. I then deleted it from my post but when i reopened the page to reply to the patriot, it stayed in the box and i didn't notice it. It does seem a little neutral compared to our domestic articles, but when i saw the credits at the end mentioning srinagar and islamabad, i decided not to post it. I don't think it's exactly unbiased. If it was an american writer, i might have included it.

I don't see anything in that article about perfect political timing.Rather i would say it's completely lousy timing

Am still trying to find whether LeT has hit us since 26-11 and not finding any. That UNSC designation is killer if we can get it for Masood Azhar. It means India is off bounds for JeM

For that China will charge something.
I think the timing will work for the bjp if they can package the optics right. The actual result doesn't matter, just how their attempts and action going forward resonate with the voting public.

I think i read somewhere that china has already designated azhar a global terrorist.
 

Julian

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The converse of what you said is this attack was done to get the Modi govt out. I don't believe it though.
In this era of wikileaks etc. i would believe anything is possible. We have a lot of history as proof also. If people are claiming this was done by the opposition to destroy the bjp, i'd say that is a possibility too. The thing most people don't realise is that the ruling class doesn't see the population as equals, once they reach their vip levels. this is true everywhere in the world, not just here. And anyone and anything is expendable to them to achieve their goals. i wouldn't put this beyond either side.

of course the simplest explanation is that some kid got tired of the crap going on in his backyard, fell for the indoctrination of predatory vultures masquerading as religious leaders, and did something as stupid as it is vile and heinous.
 
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blr_p

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Exactly, it makes zero sense that pak would approve of this. My guess is it's independent action, either by the bomber or a small group he was associated with. Probably planned or spurred on from within pak. But i highly doubt it was executed by the govt. Now, the deep state, that's a different game. Who knows what devious logic goes through their brains.
No such thing as independent action. Loose canons that do not follow order are replaced. The order came from the Pak military. 100%.

Where does the expertise to put that explosive together come from ? afghan veterans because that expertise isn't available in India.

The guy was mouthing off Pak progranada in his video, not kashmiri propaganda. Where do you get an M4 in India.

Why do you say govt ? the govt and Imran's job is designated dog catcher. He does not get a say in foreign affairs.

I think this is just being bold to save the movement.

What we might do is carry out another 'surgical strike'. claim xyz victories which no one can independently verify of course, we just have to take their word for it, the sheep will as usual praise modi for being a decisive person, and this will generate mucho electoral points. But in the long run, nothing changes, everything goes on as before. I for one, hope that modi would actually do something about this, it's been going on long enough, but my guess is whatever he does will be all noise and optics without making any difference.
They are expecting a surgical strike, so giving them that means no element of surprise.

You still doubt it happened ? wow

The reason there is no evidence is because the Paks cleaned it up quickly so there would be no trace. They are very good at getting rid of evidence and then saying nothing happened. Obviously because they would look bad otherwise. This is why no independent verification exists. The people who need to believe it happened are the army as they lost their guys. For reasons of morale. Which funnily enough is the reason i suspect this attack happened in the first place. Fighting men need to be kept motivated.

as for what we've been doing

Read

Not a sexy answer
 
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