Pulwama attack

Discussion in 'General Talk' started by swatkats, Feb 16, 2019.

  1. adder

    adder Well-Known Member

    Actually Jordanians sold the F-16s A/B Blk-15 in. 2014, the ones pak def minister is talking about is the ones put up for sale again in 2016 which are the same models but with Mid life upgrades better radar, HMC etc.

    So if paks are prepared to loose a few air crafts, they will send a plane that is one, better then their JF17 in air to air, two the F-16 would have costed about $15 million in 1997, so a used one will cost even less much less then a new inferior JF-17.

    So if you are prepared to loose a few jets against india, a used F-16 makes sense.
  2. blr_p

    blr_p Well-Known Member

    Getting a count of F16 the paks have has been quite difficult. But this looks like a good one

    PAF F16 inventory.JPG

    Total of 71 delivered

    Nine have been written off due to various accidents leaving them with 62. How many of those are operational is anyone's guess.

    Paks got the 13 from Jordan, then they wanted more from the US which the Indian lobby blocked. Then they tried to get a second batch from Jordan which the Americans blocked. These two blocks aren't documented but can be inferred.

    F16 is their top plane which is why they went to great lengths to conceal the one F16 lost to the Mig. Thing is the Americans have blocked them twice from getting more F16's. Paks will have to look for a new supplier

    F35 would be problematic even without S400

    #663 blr_p, Apr 9, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
    adder likes this.
  3. blr_p

    blr_p Well-Known Member

    IAF statement on downed F16, not that any one doubted them

    Shorter version

    Longer version

    5:40 IAF has more credible evidence that is indicative of the fact that Pakistan has lost one F16 in the air action on Feb 27 2019, however due to security & confidentiality concerns we are restricting information being shared in the public domain.

    In PAF lies & subterfuge, an F-16 tail number & a PAF pilot  —  both hidden to serve a myth

    --- Post Merged, Apr 9, 2019 ---
    Follow up to the previous vid and just as good :)

    #664 blr_p, Apr 9, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
    pratikb likes this.
  4. adder

    adder Well-Known Member

    Yep, All current super powers have one thing in common they make their own weapons. If we want to become one we need to build the infrastructure to produce them, start with electronics, it will benefit both the militarly and for the regular civilian/ consumer industry. We should then put resources to building domestic aircraft and jet engines for both military and civilian planes. A country like brazil makes Embraer jets, why cant we.

    A country like Saudi is very rich, with deep pockets but let say no will sell them weapons due to sanctions or other events. If a war occured their ammo will run out in days and their spares will be exhausted, they will be sitting ducks.

    Sadly in India, majority of the business are dependent on China, nothing but rebadged products.
    pratikb likes this.
  5. 6pack

    6pack Well-Known Member

    It's more like Indians don't want to spend on R&D and want everything ready made and in cheap and bulk quantity. Indian companies don't have any fire to find out how anything is done or to increase quality of products or invent anything. Chinese people on the other hand reverse engineer stuff to find out how it works and what it does if something inside is done differently. They then help others to make stuff, etc by sharing their knowledge easily. This is why patents don't work in china. Their logic is different than west's logic of keeping all knowledge to themselves and making even simple things too complicated or making single use products to drive up sales.
  6. blr_p

    blr_p Well-Known Member

    I've never understood why the electronics side never took off. It's a huge glaring incapability. Everything down the line gets hobbled because we can't do this. It's going to take heavy govt investment to get this bit going.
  7. fractal

    fractal Well-Known Member

    If Government provides the right incentives, Indian companies will do just fine with R&D. Companies in a market economy invest in R&D to get a long term return on investment
    The Chinese had put in place policies to allow reverse engineering with little focus on R&D. This has been changing for a while and China now invests a lot in innovation. Soon you will find that China also will want patent protection and the culture of sharing knowledge without criminal penalties will end. China will not be any different from the West in the future as far as their companies intellectual property rights are concerned at least in Indian market
  8. psyph3r

    psyph3r Well-Known Member

    India is at least 30 years behind China when it comes to infrastructure and investments and that gap is only going to increase exponentially from here on out.
  9. fractal

    fractal Well-Known Member

    ^^ Sometimes we hear some analyst say that India this year has a higher growth rate than China.

    The real point however is that at our stage of development, China was growing at more than 15% and this sustained for almost three decades. This is the development India needs for at least a generation if we want to end poverty.

    Now China is developed and its growth rate has slowed but in absolute terms its growth each year is still more than India since it now has a larger base

    Its not a given that the gap will increase exponentially. It can be narrowed.
    This is only if India also pursues the path of industrial growth with a single mindedness that China had
  10. blr_p

    blr_p Well-Known Member

    How is it possible to convince a local villager in PO J&K that you are Pakistani F16 pilot when your parachute looks like this ?!?!? OMG
    PAF F16 parachute.JPG
    --- Post Merged, Apr 9, 2019 ---
    No, China is not a developed country as yet. The goal is they will be so in 2049
  11. psyph3r

    psyph3r Well-Known Member

    It can't be narrowed with incompetent morons at the helm, the system is rigged and it won't allow honest or concerned individuals to make a difference.
    I have few friends who work in Shanghai and Shenzhen and everytime they come back to India they always tell me we aren't even remotely close to achieving what the Chinese have achieved. I travel frequently between Pune, Mumbai and Bengaluru and all three cities are basically trash imo, except for certain pockets of development all three cities are poorly developed, over-populated, lack basic planning and are probably heading for a future water crisis. Bengaluru traffic is the worst, Mumbai smells of sh*t wherever you go and Pune is bursting at the seams and it seems to be getting hotter every year. Public transport is trash everywhere, our buses look like they're straight out of a demolition derby, short commutes take way too long, heaps of rubbish are everywhere and it gets even more depressing if you drive out of the city to smaller towns.

    China has its own set of problems including massive corruption on the local level but at least they have good infrastructure to show for it, all we have is paan-tapris, potholes, encroachments, slums, etc.
    We cannot post a video of any Indian city like this one and we probably can't for another 30 years at least.

    #672 psyph3r, Apr 9, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
  12. adder

    adder Well-Known Member

    Chinese have everything from mining rights of raw materials and componets to build them from scratch. China is also larger in area, whiles our cities are getting overcrowded by the day, with ever increasing population.

    If we want to build the infrastructure for building things like electronic components, the unpopular things like increased import duties is the only way to achieve it, we do manufacture cars in india with 90 % indian made components.

    Next flood of chinese products will be E-vehicles, some like okinawa scooters shamelessly tell its made in India. While companies like Hero electric cannot even manufacture a simple Hub motor, all of them are importing the motors, speed controller and chargers from china and of course batteries. Every other month there is a new rebadged chinese EV scooter product launched in India.

    R&D is something lacking in India, look at Tesla which was started after Reva. Mahindra Electric the current owner the less said the better. Mastering a complex engine and gearbox it takes years of refinement to match the Japs and german but a motor with just two bearings and a single moving part, they cannot even do this in India.
    pratikb likes this.
  13. fractal

    fractal Well-Known Member

    China controls 90% of rare earth minerals which go into electronics components. Building a capability similar to China requires investment in this primary/extraction industry. It is polluting and environment groups will oppose. The other point is a industrial policy and protectionism for national security. This will be unpopular and actively opposed by many trade groups who benefit from free trade.

    As far as poverty alleviation goes, industrialization is the way used by almost every country. Barring that we have patchwork redistribution like MGNREGA, These schemes do help but the next generation will still remain poor.

  14. blr_p

    blr_p Well-Known Member

    Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam all have electronics industries. Labour intensive. We have the people at the right price and skills can be learnt. If the US China trade war deepens companies will be wanting to move out of China, we should be ready to offer them a suitable home.

    Central Asia has rare earths too mostly untapped. We can try to lease mines. Congo has the cobalt so China gets a lot out of there.
  15. blr_p

    blr_p Well-Known Member

    It's funny i was thinking the exact opposite. We're free and they're not. They still do not have what we take for granted for over seventy years now. Universal franchise.

    It's a total joke when some one from an authoritarian system even dares to say that. Social credits system, trying to wipe out cultures like the Tibetans & Uighurs. An atheist govt wants to regulate religion. This is hilarious if it wasn't so sad.

    I've had many people tell me this and the one thing can comes across is how shallow & superficial these people are. They think nice buildings equals developed. No, it does not work that way.

    You want wider roads, get rid of all properties that border roads. Get people to move where ever they want to build. These people have x time to pack their bags and leave. They will be housed in some tower housing complex somewhere. No, there is not right to protest, you jsut have to go. Get rid of all the slums. heh, just try to do that and watch what happens. When the metro was being built people in good areas demanded they get market rates. Not what the rate was five years ago but the going rate and they fought their cases in the courts and won. I don't see any problems with this at all. Maybe cases could be settled sooner.

    We're the world's phramacy, we do a lot of services. Didn't require fancy buildings.
    #676 blr_p, Apr 10, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  16. psyph3r

    psyph3r Well-Known Member

    Yea it's not that bad as they make it out to be, you should get out of the Indian whatsapp network which is just an information bubble, last time I checked on there India had banned all Chinese made products. Things like Tianenmen/Falun Gong/Uighurs/etc are a no-go on social media but there are no other major restrictions as such, heck they can drink beer on the roads if they want to.

    We've got caste/reservations and Aadhaar and half the people cannot even afford homes/healthcare/education/public transport so we already have a worse social credits system in place, just not official.

    That's actually a positive considering how religion has been used to divide and conquer. Part of the reason they've succeeded so much is because they haven't wasted time converting people, waging jihad or building temples.

    Nothing more hilarious and sad than Indian politics and news channels.

    Demanding a cleaner living environment is now considered superficial and shallow ? Is it too much to ask for heaps of rubbish to be picked up, stray cattle to be banned from roads and more public toilets to be built so people don't defecate outdoors ?
    China is on a different level altogether on job creation, technologies and infrastructure to the point where we should be comparing with Bangladesh not China. They don't require foreign investments anymore, they are the ones buying out foreign companies. Good infra means efficiency, and time is money for businesses and nobody gets things done faster than the Chinese.
    Good infra also leads to good quality of life, people spend hours on commutes everyday and all that frustration spills out occasionally in the form of road rage, they have no time for r&r, there are no recreational spots whatsoever, no place to go for a run and our cities are not pedestrian friendly.
    We have a dozen people falling out of local trains every month, ShivSena representatives crawl out of the woodwork every time a shoddily built foot overbridge collapses, they start with the usual Mumbai spirit BS after every monsoon deluge that brings the city to its knees, even the new metro in Bengaluru has had its share of problems since one of the metro pillars on MG road developed cracks a few months back that too after only a couple of years of operation, don't even get me started on the ridiculous BRTS in Pune.
    Instead of sucking in propaganda from that Iyer fellow you need to go out and smell the feces my friend, reality is quite different than the one shown on whatsapp.

    We mostly manufacture generics, production of which can be easily moved to some other Asian country like Vietnam. Most service industries will be rendered useless with automation and AI over the next couple of decades. Without innovation, foreign investment and r&d we'll only have more IRS/tech scammers working out of dubious call centers.
    #678 psyph3r, Apr 10, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  17. dissel

    dissel Well-Known Member

  18. blr_p

    blr_p Well-Known Member

    Not as bad as they make it out to be ? i notice you had to remove the free bit. That is the only part that counts. We are seventy years ahead of them there. So its ok to ban tibetans & Uighurs culture so we can drink beer on the roads. I used to d that in the UK without any problems. NYC they said i had to put the drink in a brown paper bag otherwise i'd be arrested for delinquency.

    A million people in re-education centres because they could be potential terrorists but at the same time China supports JeM leader with a proven record at the UNSC. Instead China considers the Dalai Lama the equivalent of a terrorist. Question of priorities ?

    People that cannot afford are screwed anywhere throughout history. Nobody cares about them. I'm talking about people that can afford getting docked because they did something some one considered undesirable. A system of social credits is as Orwellian as one could ever imagine. Parents don't keep their scores up means their kids won't get into top schools. Or no express train tickets. You can add any number of penalties here over time. That is social engineering. Why would they need such a system. Are Chinese not orderly enough.

    We have freedom of religion. Most important word there is freedom. China never had it. The only thing the Chinese have succeeded in is alleviating poverty. We've done so as well. The difference is relative so i don't see them as better. It is no secret that we have more places of worship than schools & hospitals. Question of priorities ?

    There is plenty of choice, be selective. The worst are not a reflection of the whole. Why do people here make this generalisation.

    They don't have that in China. It's what the CCP says or else. Post otherwise and your comments get deleted. You never get to hear anything bad because its all hidden and covered up. Here all people get to talk about is problems even when they aren't problems they are made out to be so. That is freedom. That is allowing different points of view.

    A simple comparison between the two is in India we have law, in China they have order. India is rule of law, China is govern by law. The difference is the former can be challenged, not the latter. Since we follow the westminster model the only requirement to remain in office is consent. Not progress or stability. Any frivolous reason is sufficient for regime change. Again freedom.

    This is an ongoing problem to deal with. Building up other cities & regions that will attract people and reduce the strain on the tier 1 cities. It takes time to do this but that is the best way of dealing with it. In China they have permits. You don't get to stay where you want. You have to qualify where you want to live. A permits system means population control. That is a night & day difference right there.

    Every country needs foreign investment. No investment means the consumption model. UPA2. You can do it for a short while and then the system starts to get into trouble. Why are the Saudis asking for investment when they have so much oil. Only reason you're hearing it is because flows must be reducing to China. But outflows are increasing. Chinese are buying homes abroad. Are they afraid of some crash. Increasingly China looks like some big bubble that will pop one day.

    Chinese way of doing business is build up national champions and allow them to gain monopolies. Subsidise them further and then unleash them on the world. The result is they will put others out of business. That is why Huawei is getting push back.

    What about foreign companies in China. Is there a level playing field. No there is not. They usually end being harassed and have any number of obstacles put in their way for whatever reason. That is not what was agreed to when China joined the WTO. The idea was they would open up. Have they. Not really. India is also similar in some ways.

    Trump is trying to change this.

    How do the locals deal with it. The best infra isn't immune from traffic jams. That's just the bane of modern life. LA and traffic jams going back decades.

    There is one important point to keep in mind with infra. People always assume better infra equals more growth. Unfortunately there is no evidence of this at all whatsoever. What spending too much on infra does is create debt traps. This I suspect is the primary reason we're going slow and not just here but elsewhere too given how BRI is progressing. The only gainers in infra are mostly the builders.

    China's fastest growth occurred during 80 - 00. Infra was crap in China then. Look at China in that era and you will see a familiar picture. It started to improve post 00. We only get to see pics post 2010.

    People think the Bangalore Metro should have been started twenty years earlier. Well, why didn't it, because there were no funds. Until the Japanese stepped in with loan offers because they wanted to sell us tech we'd not have a metro. A pillar that has cracks can be fixed.

    Look at the way people criticise the high speed train between Bombay & Ahmedabad. Isn't this an attempt to improve things. The idea is if it works there it can work with other cities too. Not according to some people.

    What propaganda are you referring to ? Free countries don't do propaganda. Only authoritarian ones. Maybe the word you are looking for is rhetoric.

    He described what we've done. He's better qualified to do that than most people. What is the problem ?

    He's done a good job of rubbishing this FP report because the info is confidential then how can the Paks publicise their claims

    He has rightly pointed out that Modi hatred clouds people's judgement to the point where they will even go against national interest. We saw this BS at play during the hostage crisis.

    He has created a wall of shame on his twitter feed for everyone to see who was slamming this F16 claim. I'm particularly upset at Ajai Shuklas comments. An ex-mil guy like that should know better but i guess he wears his politics on his sleeve now

    The Paks have been cut out by the americans back in 2016. Whether they crossed the LoC with F16's whether they fired at us, they are screwed even before Balakote happened. This i learnt when i started digging into their F16 acquisitions.

    I didn't know over the years the Americans disabled PAF F16's from carrying nukes. You don't think we should know this ?

    We'll deal with this AI when it happens. I'm generally sceptical about these fear mongering claims. Wasn't computeristation supposed to do the same thing. Oh there were strikes in the 80s & 90s because people thought they would lose their jobs too. Didn't happen did it.
    --- Post Merged, Apr 10, 2019 ---
    heh, yeah now they allow access, a full month after our air strike? I'm supposed to believe this white wash :D

    On march 7 2019
    No access to Pakistan religious school that India says it bombed

    We got the perps, i trust our guys not the Paks. Difference !

    it is amusing to see these info ops these people are pulling just to clean their name. Won't work. They speak in two voices. How many soldiers have been killed in the last one month in kashmir. Is this the peace Imran is talking about ?

    I find a good way to shut Paks up is to ask them whether they agree their country sponsors & supports terrorism against its neighbours and whether they will condemn it. They then deny & deflect. All you have to do is press them more.

    They cannot get over the fact that not a single country condemned this act of aggression on them. Not one. Even the OIC invited us to their opening plenary AFTER the strike. That is the reality they face. They can keep putting out reports in the west but nobody is buying it.

    The more China keeps refusing to designate Azhar, the longer we get to build consensus on our way to tackling the problem. At the same time China is getting nicely exposed for their double dealing.
    #680 blr_p, Apr 10, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019

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