Rahul Gandhi on Rs 12K minimum income plan for poor

Discussion in 'General Talk' started by sharktale1212, Mar 25, 2019.

  1. Lord Nemesis

    Lord Nemesis Overlord
    Veteran

    @toocool6600
    Intelligence and IQ are not one and the same. IQ is a relative scoring system created by humans and it takes into account several aspects of creativity and cognitive abilities to give a loosely comparable score. I hope you know that creative people tend to have better IQ's on this scoring system than logical thinkers.

    The intelligence that I am referring to is the fundamental difference that made the fate of humans over time so drastically different from that of another species including the ones from which humans evolved over time. We would not be here in this state if humans were always blindly following groups like the apes instead of breaking out and letting our curiosity take importance. Humans were always breaking out of their group behavior through out evolution. Unlike other animals which are generally embedded with the instinct of fear towards fire, humans broke away and welcomed and tamed it instead. Every step that humans took independently away from the group behavior was a step that differentiated us even more from the rest of the animals. The Human race was always about breaking away from the group mentality and that is what made us different. So, no humans are not meant to be manipulated and ruled. That is for the specimens that are in human form, but still struck with the mentality of their animal ancestors.
     
  2. Lord Nemesis

    Lord Nemesis Overlord
    Veteran

    Ambedkar's lofty ideals of democracy were indeed meant for human beings capable of intelligence and understanding. He however had this doubts because in the same speech, he mentioned that India had failed at this in the past and was warning that merely creating the constitution and declaring the country a democracy doesn't make it so.

    Subhas Chandra Bose had a different view on the subject written even before Ambedkar's speech. He wanted ruthless dictatorship in India. He probably came to the conclusion that when people are keen on being blind followers and cannot even set aside their differences and cooperate, its best that they are delegated to being treated like animals.

    Ultimately, the way of democracy is that it ends up with people getting what they deserve.
     
  3. blr_p

    blr_p Well-Known Member
    Veteran

    You seem to think democracy is an illusion.
    You also admit we live in a hierarchical system and this implies management.
    You then say people are born to be ruled.

    Part you are not admitting is all of this leads to a system that people can live with. It is a working system. From the village level right up to the global level.

    There are winners and losers. But i'd argue the losers are far fewer than what we've had in the past with the present system

    Which all will agree is a work in progress :)
     
  4. toocool6600

    toocool6600 Well-Known Member
    Adept

    I will write short and sweet

    I didn't say Xi or putin or Mao are good or great, they are bad obviously

    But you fail to realise the bad deeds in the name of democracy or inspite of it

    You can compare and may feel good about democracy or USA, there is hardly anything good about it.

    What is the debt level in democracy of USA? What is expenditures of war? How many countries invaded? How many lies told?

    Prism program on World and its own people?

    How then 1987, 2000 and 2008 happened in this great system you are in illusion of?

    For tracking 1 person, how many they track? Give me an idea? Is it called freedom? What is the cost of fiat currency system created by this democracy? How many people enslaved? What is its effects on the world?

    What is their total liability against their citizens?

    What it costs to the world? How it affects global system of money, what it will lead to in the future? What it means for economic systems?

    Do you know?

    Do you care to find out?

    And for your no war since 1945, you are under grand illusions its clear, the war was never over its always happening

    Do you seriously don't see nothing

    What is the cost of war against fake terrorism since 2001

    Please tell me your joking
     
    #224 toocool6600, Apr 14, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
  5. toocool6600

    toocool6600 Well-Known Member
    Adept

    It is sort of working system but don't blow it to the point of saying its a good system, it's best possible as of now and it's not going to be better it seems

    One question, do the chosen and voted entity ask public again and again on what to do on important matters, did they make fool of people while invading countries like Iraq or they made proper decision based on freaking facts that Iraq had wmd aka weapons of mass destruction?

    3 people richest in USA hold more money then 400 crore people in the world, the population of world is 750 around

    This is the best freaking system ever lol

    It creates race and competition among people country and society and friends and family and everyone around.

    People losing ethics, the sense of right or wrong, and society is getting stupid dumb, psycho for money and everything

    People comparing 200 years old countries with India and hating its own people and societies, and migrating leaving own culture behind and what not

    I can write more but your illusions is great so I know it's hard to break

    No problem
     
    #225 toocool6600, Apr 14, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
  6. toocool6600

    toocool6600 Well-Known Member
    Adept

    USA being second largest democratcy, what do you think it got and does it deserve it?
     
  7. blr_p

    blr_p Well-Known Member
    Veteran

    It's the best possible out of those existing. I would not rule our improvements. This is a dynamic system that is subject to evolution. Just as the constitution is a living document that is also subject to the same. Nothing is set in stone and static. Such a system would not survive, it would die because it could not adapt to life.

    You don't seem to understand the reasons for going into Iraq. It was the best decision at the time based on best intel. WMD was not the reason. Saddam's ability to wreak havoc in the region was the motivation. OBL showed Saddam how to hurt the west. What was the budget for 9/11 ? $500k !!! and some students and see the result. THAT is what the Americans and their allies wanted to stop. Cost of Iraq war was half a trillion. If one considers the US is worth $60 trillion then it was a good deal to safeguard that wealth.

    You are free to disagree but those are the reasons for going into Iraq. I find the media does a terrible job at explaining it and harps on about WMD.

    Also keep in mind there are two phases here. The invasion ie regime change and the occupation. The most controversial is the second phase. There is more agreement on the first phase. People tend to commingle both and because the occupation bit is controversial assume so was the invasion. Not so.

    If the system does not allow wealth to grow then what good is it. You've left out the millions of middle classes who also saw their net worth increase.

    Personal choices and you are free to make your own

    This is an entirely different point. When i saw your video it reminded me. This guy thinks like an Indian. There are people who say we got rid of colonialism in 1947 but are minds are still colonised. How do you deal with that ? do you completely purge everything you know that has a foreign origin. Or do you pick the best of both worlds. Again, your choice what the right mix should be.
     
    #227 blr_p, Apr 14, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
  8. toocool6600

    toocool6600 Well-Known Member
    Adept

    Yes its best possible, have said it already but don't believe for a second it's not making people fool, infact it's making people more fool as people are sleeping taking Valium and snoring.

    You can take their bullshit on face value, and are under the grand illusion about Iraq and everything , democracy is a way to hack people's mind and it has done it well


    You haven't at all addressed any of the my questions because you haven't thought of those almost at all, that's okay

    Life is pure suffering, everyone needs to escape reality to somehow cope up with this hard reality, mind can't remain in depression state and wants to avoid it so it creates alternative realms of its own where it finds some peace.

    Keep taking Valium and keep snoring, it's actually a good strategy for survival
     
  9. blr_p

    blr_p Well-Known Member
    Veteran

    Why don't you answer them yourself and i'll tell you what i think

    Protect your highlights. Stick to what matters.
     
  10. Lord Nemesis

    Lord Nemesis Overlord
    Veteran

    First of all, USA is not a complete democracy. It merely follows some of the structure just like India. The fact that the president has so much power that he can bring the govt to a stand still and stop a democratically passed bill stands testimony to that. No single person in a democracy should have that much authority. Everyone in the govt should be answerable to the people.

    But one thing that stands out is that despite all the grunts, there are enough people there who are ready to take a stand against the govt and hold it accountable. They will not allow their freedom and liberties to be compromised so lightly. They can tag the president on Twitter and call him out for the ass that he is being and there is nothing he will be able to do about it. Try doing the same with modi in India and see how fast all kinds of fake cases get piled up on you.

    The difference between India and USA is not the govt, but the attitude of the people. There are more people there who realize the importance of the freedom and liberties they have. Maybe, it derives from from their strong sense of respect towards their duties as a citizen which Indians don't give a damn about. In India, there are always enough people ready to hand over freedom on a silver platter to tyrant wannabes.

    It is always the attitude of the people that makes a difference.
     
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  11. toocool6600

    toocool6600 Well-Known Member
    Adept

    So the thing is that you don't know anything about anything but you have a strong view of the world and democracy........... How can one make a view about anything without knowing much?


    A question often leads to more questions and it branches out to infinity, and if one can't address or think or handle lots of questions, then it's obvious that one does not know enough to make a strong opinion about the basic question

    In my understanding the questions which I asked I always found out that it does not lead to the illusion that democracy is great, it's not, at best democracy is 4 out of 10 maybe even less.

    Those who don't have questions are under illusion of democracy

    People should know that in this best system 90 % of crimes are not even reported let alone brought to justice.

    And regarding on what matters if you have no knowledge of spirituality then how can you know about anything at all?
     
  12. toocool6600

    toocool6600 Well-Known Member
    Adept

    And what happened when people got to via Snowden that for 1 person of interest they track 2.5 million people and by that statistics each and every person is being tracked?

    How did system react when people knew about it and is it not illusion of freedom?

    Did snooping stopped? Do they now need permission from courts for doing mass surveillance? Or they can treat people like gunia pigs still?
     
  13. Lord Nemesis

    Lord Nemesis Overlord
    Veteran

    Here is the thing. The US govt never openly admits to snooping not can it do it formally. They may do still do it behind the scenes, but there is big difference between govt doing it without knowledge of the people going through a lot of trouble for it (back doors, breaking cryptography etc) and the people willingly allowing it and/or welcoming it. Whenever there is evidence of illegal snooping, people in US fight back against it. Even the most obnoxious of trump grunts would not accept the idea of being snooped on regardless of how its sugar coated. They may say some racist stuff about tagging or monitoring select communities, but won't accept large scale snooping. Even in courts, if some evidence of wrong doing is obtained through illegal snooping/wire tapping, they cannot produce it in court because the govt or law enforcement could get in trouble for it instead of the suspect. Similarly, how did end-to-end encryption become the norm even for communication between servers after it came out that govt was trying to tap into data centers?

    In India, people have welcomed the deep intrusion of govt into personal lives of the citizens. They went so far as to justify it with reasons like "What is there to hide" etc and don't see any harm in it. They have also accepted without a fuss when govt openly announced that 8 different govt organizations can carry out large scale and overarching snooping activity on citizens indiscriminately and many of those organizations didn't even have anything to do with national security. People have gone out of their way to defend it. On the other hand, the same people are also alright with govt keeping the public in the dark about its own activities and dealings in the name of national security. People defended govt wanting to hide the Rafale documents when there is no need for it.

    Think of it this way. Somebody is spying on a girl without her knowledge and going through a lot of trouble for it. But if he gets caught in the act, he is going to get trashed. If she senses it, she will take steps to prevent it or at least make it difficult. Compare that to another case where the target is told that she is going to be spied on and she opens her windows to make it easy for him instead. Are these two on par?

    As I said before, the attitude of the people matters.
     
  14. Lord Nemesis

    Lord Nemesis Overlord
    Veteran

    https://www.ndtv.com/andhra-pradesh...another-expert-not-hari-prasad-vemuru-2023074

    Its interesting how a politician with a multiple serious criminal cases is perfectly alright to participate in elections as MLA, MP or even become CM or PM, but EC says that a security researcher is not acceptable because he is accused of stealing an EVM for research purpose. He did procure a EVM through some dubious means because EC wouldn't allow security researchers to legitimately get access to one, probably for fear of being exposed.

    Anytime security through legality is used and a system's security or reliability is prevented from being challenged by denying access to it, you can be sure that its a completely broken system and rife for tampering and abuse.
     
  15. blr_p

    blr_p Well-Known Member
    Veteran

    Innocent until proven guilty. In this game people either use the law to fix or the threat of it to counter opponents. The better question is how are these people able to win seats.

    We've been through this numerous times before. Once an EVM is tampered with then it can be made to do whatever. This does not prove anything.

    When numerous opportunities are offered to hack these machines under supervision no valid challengers have shown up.

    In any case VVPAT's are being used now so we have additional checks. We are not doing 50% as the opposition wants as it would be impractical. The Supreme court has said 5 VVPAT's per assembly constituency. It's not clear to me what % that translates into as a total.
     
    #235 blr_p, Apr 15, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
  16. blr_p

    blr_p Well-Known Member
    Veteran

    My views are based on strong positions. Strong positions are able to withstand challenges. You've not challenged anything i've said. Merely disagreed.

    And then the discussion goes no where. So why don't you answer your own questions and let's see what you know.

    If not democracy then what else ? this is not a new question but one that even Churchill asked more than half a century back. We go with what we have and try and improve. How fast that proceeds is down to people questioning the system. RTI is one good example. EVM's is another.

    Why do i think its so great is because when i see other that don't have it and fail to get it then i understand what we have is no trivial accomplishment. It is a huge achievement.

    Explain
     
    #236 blr_p, Apr 15, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
  17. Lord Nemesis

    Lord Nemesis Overlord
    Veteran

    The whole argument about the security of EVM seems to be hinging on the fact that our indigenous EVM's are so primitive and custom designed that they do not have any conventional networking capability. But the point being ignored is that the staff responsible for assembly and maintenance and support of EVM are third party contractors. My own cousin who is an electronics graduate has worked as a contractor for ECIL (till 2 years back) in Hyderabad to manufacture, test EVM's and also went on election duty as field technician. They have debugging kits to work with the machines. Regardless of how much randomizing and other processes that are followed, the fact remains that the these third party contractors on the field are the ones with the technical know how and the debugging equipment that can hook up to the machines. None of the conventional ground staff are technical people. So how does one know after a EVM was serviced on the field that it was not tampered with?

    Even IT services employees from firms like TCS and Wipro etc. working on back office of banks have been found compromising, tampering or otherwise abusing the privileges that they have been provided. So, would it be so far fetched assume that third party contractor working on EVMs can be compromised. What if the EVMs are modified from the get go? People should know how the top down authority of govt works in govt offices.

    In case of AP elections, 4000+ EVMs were malfunctioning and needed servicing. People in some locations had to wait till 2 AM to cast their votes. Further more, the VVPAT sytem which should show the slip for 7 sec was instead showing it only for 3 sec on these EVM's so that people do not have enough time to verify the slips. How did this sort of tampering happen.

    Without the schematics and design out in the open or at least independent auditing from a reliable security firm, how do people have this confidence that EVM's cannot be tampered? They have to trust the entire govt, EC ECIL, and all the third party contractors blindly. No wonder that Dr. Ambedkar talked about bout the blind bhakti and hero worship tendency in India even back in 1949. I seriously doubt people will trust strangers to the same extent on any other matter.
     
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  18. blr_p

    blr_p Well-Known Member
    Veteran

    ^we've already discussed this earlier. Tampering can affect counts when the margins are thin. City council level maybe. With a national election the chances these attempts will affect results is negligible.

    Stop crying foul after you ran away from EVM challenge, Election Commission tells political parties

    Why are these people not showing up when the EC throws open challenges ? If its so easy to tamper with as you say. They only show up when elections are near for publicity reasons. Everybody uses this trick. To date not a single party has managed to put forward a credible challenge against EVM's. And we've used them for decades now, we've had lots of elections and we have many political parties. Nobody has questioned election results. If that isn't a persuasive argument in favour of EVMs then i don't know what will satisfy people.

    I've posted videos of senior level people that have been managing these devices and there was not one challenge to what they were saying. People just want to spread FUD.

    Naidu’s ‘expert’ for EC meet turns out to be ‘EVM thief’

    Great way to make the case :D

    Publicity stunt by the TDP before the elections.
     
    #238 blr_p, Apr 15, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
  19. fractal

    fractal Well-Known Member
    Disciple

    Pre-emptive war is illegal under international law. In any case Iraq was not planning to attack the US by terrorism.

    The whole argument against Iraq was a tissue of lies and WMD was a major part of that. Your argument for the US going to war with Iraq can be applied to many other countries and the US media is actively making such arguments today against other countries

    Who are these people who are agreed on the first phase? Does it include the people of the Arab world who were most affected? I think only the foreign policy establishment in the US supports regime change wars.
     
  20. blr_p

    blr_p Well-Known Member
    Veteran

    Here's the thing. It's not illegal because the UNSC didn't declare it so. Whether it was legal is a grey area. People think in binaries. Legal & illegal but forget there is a space between the two.

    This 'illegal' thing has been repeated ad infinitum and is a Russian argument. The Russians did nothing to stop it. Now, consider Syria and we see the Russians did act and move in.

    You have to look at it from the necons pov. At the time the decision was made a few short months after 9/11 there was a lot of panic around. Saddam had a proven track record of causing trouble in the area. Occupation of Kuwait for instance. He doesn't have to attack the US, he can choose and pick any US interests in the region. That was their thinking.

    is pre-emptive illegal ? we've used it twice for first surgical strike & Balakote strike. Nobody condemned it.

    Yes, they are Iran for instance and the reasons are justified. The question is whether the US will act on this or not remains to be seen.

    Thing about WMD's is Saddam never denied it all throughout 2002. We only found out in 2006 after he was captured where he admitted had he said otherwise he was afraid Iran would attack. So his claim of having WMD's was to deter Iran.

    WMD's here does not mean nukes, its chemical weapons which Saddam had used on his people and threatened to use against Israel in the first gulf war. Funny thing about chemical weapons is it almost guarantees some reaction from the P5.

    US congress and other allies. If there was no 9/11 Saddam might still be in power today. Who asked the Americans whether 9/11 could be done.

    Take R2P, or responsibility to protect. It was used in Libya. This is yet another rationale to interfere in a country if it is considered irresponsible.

    There are three powers guaranteed to oppose such moves, India, China & Russia. The reason is their state formation is incomplete or at risk .
     
    #240 blr_p, Apr 16, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019

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