Where this country is heading - do you have any hope ?

how to survive and have a respectable life in this country?

  • Not Possible

    Votes: 27 48.2%
  • OP is Antinational

    Votes: 4 7.1%
  • OP has black money in Swiss bank

    Votes: 7 12.5%
  • what is respect? What is life? Pay taxes & just Pay Taxex, make india Sooperpawa in 2020.

    Votes: 18 32.1%

  • Total voters
    56
The new deal is for all 36 jets in ready to fly condition. No new aircraft will be manufactured in India. That means no 126 aircraft. Just these 36 planes cost 58000 crores.

I am still not going to argue this on the matter of price just to be fair. When you scrap a deal and make a new one, any reference you had earlier is going for a toss. Also 36 jets in ready to fly condition and 126 jets in spare parts is an apples vs oranges comparison in terms of price.

If we look at it from a software perspective, I would much rather pay a developer to provide me 36 games in "ready for production" condition than paying the same price for getting the source for 126 games as a pile of mess and have them give a few KT sessions to my team on how they might get it working. If I really want to build in-house technology expertise, I would approach it in a completely different manner.


So reliance isnt going to do anything. they will sit on their ass and make money.

Reliance was never meant to do anything other than sit on its ass and make money of this deal. I mean, they literally registered the company with a measly 5 lac capital just for the sole purpose of getting the offsets contract. They didn't even fulfill the eligibility conditions for getting the contract and Dassault themselves had to fund them the pre-requisites. I am more worried about their role in future projects.


I would much rather that a corrupt entity without any qualifications do nothing and make money than have them do stuff that endanger lives. This is also the difference between congress and BJP too. Both are corrupt, but congress at least didn't actively mess with the lives of people even if the ate the tax payers money. BJP did more damage to this nation in 5 years than congress did 70 years of its rule.
 
Taken this from an FB post by Peri Maheshwar
Date: 8th Feb 2018
How does CRONY CAPITALISM work? Read this.
- March 2017 - Essar Group debt mounts to Rs.140,000 crores to various Indian banks. RBI flags and recommends immediate action.
- As of March 2017, Essar Steel has a debt of 44,000 crores of which almost 32,000 crores was provided as NPAs in bank books.
- A concerned RBI under Raghuram Rajan recommends Essar Steel as one of the 12 chronic cases to National Company Law Tribunal.
- In October 2016, Essar Oil signs with Roseneft to sell at a price of Rs.82,740 crores in the presence of Modi and Putin.
- The details of this USD 13 Billion deal were kept confidential. Many bankers protested and stalled the deal too.
- In August 2017, Essar announces closure of the deal. Only Rs.4000 crores was paid to the Indian lenders (4% of the total debt). None of Essar Steel Debts were repaid. About Rs.70,000 crores of Essar Oil debt moved to Roseneft books. No one knew how much the Ruias got in the deal.
- Essar Steel goes through bankruptcy proceedings. Bankers threaten to invoke personal guarantee of promoters. Under pressure, bankers reconciled for a haircut.
- Feb 2018 – Things become curious. Revant Ruia, the scion of the Ruias forms a consortium called Nu Metal and bids for Essar Steel in a USD 6 BILLION ALL CASH DEAL.
They did not pay the lenders. They did not disclose how the proceeds of the USD 13 Billion Roseneft deal were shared. They allowed bankcruptcy proceedings. They forced a haircut on all lenders. And one of their own bids to buy it IN A ALL CASH DEAL.
That is India and crony capitalism for you.

https://scroll.in/article/910862/th...l-deals-benefited-essar-hurt-ongc-say-experts
 

Wait what the f*ck does this even mean? NRIs are women stealers or something? And it's indians FFS, not like they're poaching gullible white targets or whatever the eff people seem to make up issues about.[DOUBLEPOST=1549906551][/DOUBLEPOST]

I had saved a screenshot of a similar one back in december:

IMG-20181201-WA0001.jpg
 
Care to elaborate with some facts?

Unemployment rate at its highest. The very fact that official govt surveys and data sources are being suppressed and BJP would rather spread misinformation through its IT cell on social media instead of letting official surveys come out without interference is proof of the fact. In fact, when Piyush Goyal was questioned about it, he very well acknowledged it and then tried to bull shit his way out.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...year-high-in-2017/18/articleshow/67768454.cms

BJP could not even come even come up with a half decent excuse for the abrupt demonetization. Corruption was cited as one of the many excuses, but corruption has seemingly increased because of it. Black money stashed was easily converted to white and also the money got spread among more people. Hoading of new currency is rampart. Counterfeit notes was another reason cited, but counterfeits of the new currency came out even before the real notes got into people's hands.

BJP tried to show that tax payer base increased because of demonetization, but tax payer base has been increasing every year for decades now. I posted a year wise graph on tax payer base a while back in this or some other thread which shows that there is no change in the trend.

Digitization was another excuse used. It is a joke in a country that doesn't have proper road connectivity or electricity in a vast number of villages. 100% electrification claim is another big joke The only thing they have digitized is corruption. Instead of cash for vote, it was Paytm transfer for vote in recent elections.

The GST bill whose purpose was to simplify and normalize indirect taxation was used purely as a means to increase taxes. Goods like Petroleum were not brought under GST. Petroleum taxes were also increased heavily during this regime and prices were at their highest levels even during times when the crude oil prices were at their lowest. This has direct impact on the prices of every commodity sold in India starting form the most basic stuff like very day vegetables and groceries.

There are many cottage/micro/small industries that got destroyed due to govt imposed changes relating to demonetization and taxation. Few examples:demonetization killed of more than 90% of the age old 4000+ crore small scale lock making industry. Due to new import duties levied on the cashew nut processing industry, 95% of the manual processing plants lost their foreign clients who all took their business to the south east Asia instead and all the Indian plants had to be shut down. This industry is all but dead now.

The autonomy of several organizations responsible to ensure the well being of the country stand compromised. RBI is one example. RBI has been reduced to a sock puppet of the govt and being forced to open up its regulatory control for the benefit of financial offenders responsible for the current crisis of the banks. India will no longer be able to weather another recession. There is no security even for the hard earned savings the of the common man anymore.

CBI has always been like a dog of the govt, but the NIA which was established to combat terror is also now reduced to the same state and being used for political purposes.

The only institute that still has some semblance of credibility is the Supreme court and the BJP has been trying to get into it and destroy it since the day they came into power.

Last but not least, BJP has managed to turn India into a laughing stock before the entire world with these kind of absurdly silly statements at regular intervals to the point that even India's self proclaimed "developing" status is fodder for jokes. They also made substantial strides in destroying the already poor education system in India. They actively encouraged false pride using silly stories of non existent past greatness and discouraged scientific temper. Science related events in the country are reduced to platforms for uneducated and unscientific propaganda

https://www.scoopwhoop.com/unscientific-comments-by-indian-politicians/#.8jjst2wm0


[DOUBLEPOST=1549912626][/DOUBLEPOST]According to Modi/BJP, rapists are being hanged every 3, 7, 11 and 30 days (as if there is a schedule that they follow).

https://twitter.com/BJP4India/status/1090613581781987329

This is the kind of stuff that comes from these pathological liars.

The last rapist to be hanged was 15 years years ago. Nirbhaya case rapists are yet to be hanged. The juvenile is out in the open after serving just 3 years.
 
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Unemployment rate at its highest. The very fact that official govt surveys and data sources are being suppressed and BJP would rather spread misinformation through its IT cell on social media instead of letting official surveys come out without interference is proof of the fact. In fact, when Piyush Goyal was questioned about it, he very well acknowledged it and then tried to bull shit his way out.
I stopped reading at this point because there is a fundamental problem here. The data we have on employment is complete bunk.

BJP saying they created jobs and opposition saying unemployment is at its highest is meaningless. Can't have a meaningful discussion on the basis of the data which is usually the way to do it. Americans can do it because their data is a lot better. Ours is not.

You will know when the results of the general election are out, what people really think on this score.

Why is the data bunk? listen to the prof. I appreciate people like this because they save a lot of time with their knowledge.

If 3 crore people are out of work why is it so quiet. If 3 crore people were out of work they would be civil unrest all over the country. Buses being burnt. Not happening anywhere is it. The joke is to get people to demonstrate right now you have to pay them. Why ? if they are so upset surely they would be out on the streets queuing up. Where is this happening in India today ? Not like anyone will stop them we do this sort of thing a lot already. Free country & all.

Those are the deductive skills that make this prof interesting :)[DOUBLEPOST=1549930793][/DOUBLEPOST]
Yes, bofors was a government to government deal.
Heh, then why is Qatrrochi's name coming up ? so bofors was not a G to G deal. Bofors was G to swedish company deal.

UPA didn't go ahead with Rafale because then the BJP would have come up with the same crap. Given how many scams the media kept screaming about of which no one has been convicted to date. UPA would have been routed in 2014. And it happened without the deal.
 
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Taken this from an FB post by Peri Maheshwar
I wish people wrote some well reasoned arguments rather than trying to make a case with disjointed narrative.

Essar Steel is currently going under bankruptcy under new law - the IBC Code (Indian Bankruptcy 2016). This is a fairly new law. Given that people are not binary and follow section X , line Y logic, there are some unresolved questions. One of them being - Are promoters of the bankrupt company eligible for bidding back the company? People who say "Yes" to this question say that promoters are well versed with the business and should be given another chance. People who say "No" say promoters destroyed the company so why the 2nd chance.

Now, in stock market there is a general belief that promoters acquiring a bigger stake in a debt ridden company is good news. The logic being that it is difficult for anyone, especially a insider or a promoter, to buy a terrible company knowing full well what rotten apple it actually is. Why will anyone spend more money after a shit company, unless they believe it will improve? My opinion is somewhat similar but on a different logic - Everyone, including promoters, should be given a fair chance if the proposed restructure plans is good.

How does this apply for Essar Steel? One might argue that Ruias are corrupt rich people for whom we cannot apply the logic of knowingly buying a rotten company. And I can respect such an opinion, only when it is presented with up to date facts than a disjointed narratives.

A simple google news search will show what is happening with Essar Steel. Many people "bid" for the company - JSW Steel, Arcelor etc. Things got out of hand after the Ruias bid. Interestingly they offered 12k crores more than the next best - ArcelorMittal. That is extra 12k crores back to the lenders. The case went to SC and yesterday the verdict was:
https://www.financialexpress.com/in...celormittals-winning-bid-finally-win/1483846/

So, it looks like ArcelorMittal will win this one.
 
I stopped reading at this point because there is a fundamental problem here. The data we have on employment is complete bunk.

BJP saying they created jobs and opposition saying unemployment is at its highest is meaningless. Can't have a meaningful discussion on the basis of the data which is usually the way to do it. Americans can do it because their data is a lot better. Ours is not.

You will know when the results of the general election are out, what people really think on this score.

Why is the data bunk? listen to the prof. I appreciate people like this because they save a lot of time with their knowledge.

If 3 crore people are out of work why is it so quiet. If 3 crore people were out of work they would be civil unrest all over the country. Buses being burnt. Not happening anywhere is it. The joke is to get people to demonstrate right now you have to pay them. Why ? if they are so upset surely they would be out on the streets queuing up. Where is this happening in India today ? Not like anyone will stop them we do this sort of thing a lot already. Free country & all.

Those are the deductive skills that make this prof interesting :)[DOUBLEPOST=1549930793][/DOUBLEPOST]
Heh, then why is Qatrrochi's name coming up ? so bofors was not a G to G deal. Bofors was G to swedish company deal.

UPA didn't go ahead with Rafale because then the BJP would have come up with the same crap. Given how many scams the media kept screaming about of which no one has been convicted to date. UPA would have been routed in 2014. And it happened without the deal.

My bad. The wiki page showed the deal to be between Indian and Swedish government. Looks like it is without any back up.

Qatrrochi cannot be an official middleman. The Rajiv Gandhi government banned middlemen before bofors deal. His name came up during the scandal as the guy who handled bribe.

UPA 2 didn’t have the credibility to do a military deal of this magnitude. True. BJP had. And they did screw up.
 
Are promoters of the bankrupt company eligible for bidding back the company? People who say "Yes" to this question say that promoters are well versed with the business and should be given another chance. People who say "No" say promoters destroyed the company so why the 2nd chance.

Now, in stock market there is a general belief that promoters acquiring a bigger stake in a debt ridden company is good news. The logic being that it is difficult for anyone, especially a insider or a promoter, to buy a terrible company knowing full well what rotten apple it actually is. Why will anyone spend more money after a shit company, unless they believe it will improve? My opinion is somewhat similar but on a different logic - Everyone, including promoters, should be given a fair chance if the proposed restructure plans is good.

Only if they are willing to inherit it with the full debt in tow. If they are bidding after a deal has been cut out where where a several 44,000 crore debt has been wiped of the slate for literally peanuts, then they should not qualify.


How does this apply for Essar Steel? One might argue that Ruias are corrupt rich people for whom we cannot apply the logic of knowingly buying a rotten company. And I can respect such an opinion, only when it is presented with up to date facts than a disjointed narratives.


A simple google news search will show what is happening with Essar Steel. Many people "bid" for the company - JSW Steel, Arcelor etc. Things got out of hand after the Ruias bid. Interestingly they offered 12k crores more than the next best - ArcelorMittal. That is extra 12k crores back to the lenders.

If they have let the company go through bankruptcy despite having the funds to pay back all or significant part of the debt, let a deal be cut out at the loss to lenders and investors and then want to buy back the company after that, then yeah, they are corrupt and just attempting to pull a fast one over lenders and investors.
 
I wish people wrote some well reasoned arguments rather than trying to make a case with disjointed narrative.

.

The issue is not about how they could themselves bid for their own bankrupt company. The point was how they got the money to make that bid. Why weren't the details of their deal with Roseneft made public and why wasn't the money that they received from that deal used to pay off the lenders of Essar Steel. Why, when the banks wanted to invoke personal guarantees, were forced not to do so.

If you go through the article, it shows how the Roseneft deal paid Essar Group $4B more than the evaluated value of the company. The article also shows how the money from govt oil companies was first used to buy a share in Roseneft's oil well to the tune of $4B. And that too in a venture whose output is decreasing year-on-year.

The issue trying to be highlighted is about crony capitalism, in which politicians don't allow the banks to use the full force of the law against super-rich capitalists and how, allegedly, govt profits are rerouted to bail out such loss making ventures.

As for the person writing the arguments, he is a well-known critic whose arguments are always based on facts, although this time his post was just a summary of the actual article. He is the one who took down Arindam Chaudhary and IIPM down and has previously worked for Outlook and currently running Careers360. He has worked as a journalist since the times of the Harshad Mehta.
 
The issue is not about how they could themselves bid for their own bankrupt company. The point was how they got the money to make that bid. Why weren't the details of their deal with Roseneft made public and why wasn't the money that they received from that deal used to pay off the lenders of Essar Steel. Why, when the banks wanted to invoke personal guarantees, were forced not to do so.

If you go through the article, it shows how the Roseneft deal paid Essar Group $4B more than the evaluated value of the company. The article also shows how the money from govt oil companies was first used to buy a share in Roseneft's oil well to the tune of $4B. And that too in a venture whose output is decreasing year-on-year.

The issue trying to be highlighted is about crony capitalism, in which politicians don't allow the banks to use the full force of the law against super-rich capitalists and how, allegedly, govt profits are rerouted to bail out such loss making ventures.

As for the person writing the arguments, he is a well-known critic whose arguments are always based on facts, although this time his post was just a summary of the actual article. He is the one who took down Arindam Chaudhary and IIPM down and has previously worked for Outlook and currently running Careers360. He has worked as a journalist since the times of the Harshad Mehta.
I know I get into more emotional than logical debates on TE. And frankly I don't believe I will be able to convince you otherwise on this. But still here it goes:

First, let's separate Essar Oil and see what are the claims:

One, acquisition valuations is not hard science as what the article tries to show off. We don't know why govt oil companies bought Roseneft's share for high price. It could be that they believed that utility value of those mines were worth more even with decreasing outputs. Or that these companies were securing themselves against an uncertain oil future - India's is heavily dependent on Iran for oil. No body knows. Without a substantive proof, this is simply guesswork. And I wish people, especially who are supposed to be "journalist" try to add this much subtly to their "analysis".

Second, government involvement. Cross border deals are sensitive in nature. Especially when it comes to assets like oil. My employer recently acquired another company (which btw happened at double the valuation of what many, include me, thought should have happened) - there was heavy involvement by US government and China. And I am talking about a US company acquiring another US company. The involvement was not at the highest level, of course because it wasn't a strategic asset like oil.

Third, the haircut and the lenders. A quick google search turns up this:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...nders-boosts-company/articleshow/60165735.cms

It says the "deal cheers lenders". And the kicker here is that it says $5billion was paid back to lenders and not 400 crores. The other part of it - transferring it to new company's books - that is a standard operating procedure. You buy a company, you get to take on its burdens.

But I do love how this guy claims "They did not disclose how the proceeds of the USD 13 Billion Roseneft deal were shared." but knows 400 crores was given to banks. So, he needs to make up his mind. Either no one knows how the money was spent or 400 crores was spent to repay loans, haircuts etc.

Lastly, why only talk about Roseneft? There was another party to the deal - Trafigura, a Netherlands based company which acquired another 49.13%:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...nders-boosts-company/articleshow/60165735.cms

Does it not fit into a "conspiracy"/cronyism narrative?

Now to Essar Steel: I have already explained IBC's side and the whole problem about promoters getting involved in the bidding process.

There are many more issues to point out but let me stop here and point out two things about your post specifically.
One, when you say he is working since Harshad Mehta, do you mean he broke the scam? My guess is that you are trying to defend his credentials but if he did break it sure let's see his work.

Second, please correct your sources. The actual downfall of IIPM story started from JAM Magazine:
https://web.archive.org/web/20080210034840/http://www.jammag.com/careers/n/showart.php?art_id=149
 
Don't worry mate. I am not someone who won't keep harping his own trumpet in front of facts and justifiable arguments.
I read some more articles and it seems that the Essar group didn't want to let go of their steel business. Even during IBC, they were saying that they are willing to pay off the entire debt of 54k crores. So, they did have the money, or get the money in time, and wanted to pay off the lenders and hold on to their business. That's why they even went to the length of forming NuMetal group. But, then the bone of contention is that they had to be jolted into doing that by the NCLT by initiating IBS proceedings. Until then, they were comfortable into being labeled as wilful defaulters and not fulfilling their payment responsibilities. I got this information from this article - https://www.newsclick.in/essar-group-fudging-insolvency-and-bankruptcy-code-process
Let me know if their findings and opinions are right or not.

But, I don't believe that crony capitalism is not existant in India. My dad used to work at IDBI Bank, including loan recovery dept. So I remember, how livid he used to be at his seniors for not doing the needful in time and letting NPAs turn bigger and bigger when they could have nipped those problems and their exposures in the bud. In fact, Mr. BK Batra, ex-MD of IDBI, who got charged in the Kingfisher case, used to be one of our neighbours and I remember my Dad using the choicest of expletives for him, long before the Kingfisher case.

As for whether Peri Maheshwar took down IIPM or not, you can read about it here - https://www.moneylife.in/article/ma...areers360-vanquishes-iipm-in-court/46125.html
 
My bad. The wiki page showed the deal to be between Indian and Swedish government. Looks like it is without any back up.

Qatrrochi cannot be an official middleman. The Rajiv Gandhi government banned middlemen before bofors deal. His name came up during the scandal as the guy who handled bribe.

UPA 2 didn’t have the credibility to do a military deal of this magnitude. True. BJP had. And they did screw up.
Cannot rely solely on wiki. Check the sources.

I think UPA2 could have gone ahead with Rafale because they set the standard with Mirage in the 80s. Where was the scam there, bribe ? middleman ? none. Nor will there be one with Rafale. Opposition would like to turn Rafale into a Bofors moment. That is the agenda. If Bofors knocked Rajiv sideways then Modi isn't immune.

UPA2 dragged their feet because they prefer to spend on populism instead of defence. Because populism wins elections. Unfortunately. So every party is going to use it as a crutch when they feel vulnerable.

If you want this country to have a say in regional affairs then it needs to be backed up with hard power. Have to commit to spending 2% of GDP on defense for the next twenty years.

http://www.boeing.co.in/news-and-me...s-first-ch-47-chinook-crown-and-tailcone.page

We need more helis. But these aren't so sexy so not much noise will be made. Point to note

TASL is already delivering crown and tailcones for CH-47 Chinook helicopters for the U.S. Army and international customers. The CH-47F Chinook is the advanced multi-mission helicopter which is being operated by the U.S. Army and 18 other defense forces around the world.

Boeing’s network in India includes 35 direct and 120 indirect suppliers from India that manufacture advanced and complex components and sub-assemblies for a range of various commercial and defense aircraft such as the 787 Dreamliner, 777X, F/A-18, F-15, P-8, CH-47 Chinook and AH-64 Apache. Boeing supports the Make in India initiative through accelerated investments in manufacturing, skill development and engineering to build a strong and indigenous aerospace and defense ecosystem.

Another deal

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...11-naval-helicopters/articleshow/67961789.cms

Lockheed Martin, Airbus Helicopters and Bell Helicopters are among those expected to participate in the bidding, the ministry statement said, to replace the Navy's ageing Soviet-era helicopters.

The Indian companies likely to participate in the bidding are Tata Advanced Systems, Mahindra Defence, Adani Defence, L&T, Bharat Forge and Reliance Infrastructure, the defence ministry said.

we have other companies besides the ambanis ;)
 
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One, acquisition valuations is not hard science as what the article tries to show off. We don't know why govt oil companies bought Roseneft's share for high price. It could be that they believed that utility value of those mines were worth more even with decreasing outputs. Or that these companies were securing themselves against an uncertain oil future - India's is heavily dependent on Iran for oil. No body knows. Without a substantive proof, this is simply guesswork. And I wish people, especially who are supposed to be "journalist" try to add this much subtly to their "analysis".
I follow these developments from a geopolitics perspective. The idea was Russia is inviting India to diversify against China. You'd think the rate would be attractive and not high. So your question still stands.
 
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Nearly 18.5 per cent of the Centre’s fiscal deficit — the gap between its total spending and revenues from taxes and other non-debt sources — in 2019-20 is expected to be financed from small savings schemes collections, as against 12.6 per cent in 2016-17 and only 2.5 per cent in 2013-14. Further, the National Small Savings Fund (NSSF), which aggregates the receipts from these mainly Post Office-run schemes, invested Rs 70,000 crore in the Food Corporation of India (FCI) during 2016-17 and another Rs 65,000 crore in 2017-18. All this points to the fact that the Centre is increasingly taking recourse to non-market borrowings for meeting not only its own deficits, but also the requirements of parastatals from the FCI and National Highways Authority of India to Air India.

One way to view the above is that diversification of funding sources is a good thing: To the extent the Centre and its extended arms raise less resources from the market, there is that much-reduced pressure on private sector borrowers. Also, the NSSF monies have to ultimately be invested somewhere in order to pay small savings subscribers. If these are deployed in government securities, why should that be a problem? This argument, however, misses the point. The real issue today is with deficits per se and not how they are financed. Sajjid Chinoy of the American investment bank, J.P. Morgan, has estimated India’s total public sector borrowing requirement — which includes that of the Centre as well as state governments and parastatals — at 8.2 per cent of the GDP during 2017-18. Given that the total financial savings in the economy, according to official data for the same fiscal, amounted to 19.9 per cent of the GDP, it means the public sector is cornering well over a two-fifths share of the annual surplus with households and firms today. Does it matter beyond a point, then, whether this cornering is happening via banks and bond markets or the NSSF? So long as public deficits remain at the unsustainable levels they are at now, the private sector will continue getting crowded out and forced to pay interest rates that deter it from making productive investments.

Further, there is a cost to deficit-induced borrowings. For the coming fiscal, the Centre’s own interest payments — including on so-called special securities issued to public sector banks for recapitalisation or to the FCI, fertiliser and oil marketing companies in lieu of cash subsidy — are budgeted at Rs 6,65,061 crore, which is 33.6 per cent of its revenue receipts and 23.9 per cent of total expenditures. Clearly, this cannot go on. The Narendra Modi government squandered the political capital it had to fix the deficit problem, whether through aggressive rationalisation/targeting of subsidies or reforming state-owned undertakings and banks by outright privatisation rather than recapitalisation. The next government will probably not have the luxury of dithering.

https://indianexpress.com/article/o...-gdp-growth-data-the-deficit-problem-5577702/
 
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