Graphic Cards 660ti or 670 for 1080p?

Orija

Contributor
The other thread I made was about was choosing a good enough current-gen card, but techreport's editorials on the large frame time spiking in AMDs cards have convinced me to overlook AMD for this gen.

Among Nvidia's line-up, the 660 ti seems decent enough for 1920x1080 but it too stumbles at demanding games like Metro/Crysis and high anti-aliasing. The chopped up 192bit memory bus makes me doubt its long-term viability. My original budget was 20-23k, but I'll have to go for the 670 to get 45+ fps everywhere. I'd prefer getting the gpu from Flipkart as my friend has a 1500/- discount coupon that I can avail. These are the four I've decided on, two of which are currently out of stock.

Gigabyte 660ti Windforce 2

Asus 660ti TOP


Gigabyte 670 Windforce 2
Asus 670 (+5% tax)

I most likely won't be overclocking any time soon, and of course a manufacturer with decent RMA services is preferred. Specs:
2500k
Corsair 650 TX V2
Asus Z77-MPRO

I'd rather not go for something from MSI or Zotac.
 
@Orija if you are worried about the future go for the GTX670 OR AMD HD7950 3GB. The AMD cards are fine and most members who have a HD7*** series card can corroborate to the same. Will tag a few @Jasku, @cranky and @Chaos.

The 192-bit bus may OR may not be a choke point later down the line but for a 1080p screen it is enough (for now *fingers crossed*). Some benches for you pertaining to the same --
AnandTech - Bench - GPU12 -- AMD HD7950 3GB (stock) vs. GTX660Ti
AnandTech - Bench - GPU12 -- AMD HD7950 3GB (stock) vs. GTX670
AnandTech - Bench - GPU12 -- AMD HD7950 3GB (boosted clocks) vs. GTX670

HARDOCP - Introduction - Fall 2012 GPU and Driver Comparison Roundup.

Also latest BETA drivers are showing a further increment in performance but I will refrain from taking sides unless they are released as official updates and show consistent stability and performance across the board.

Brands are upto you. But these are the ones I recommend --
  • GIGABYTE
  • ASUS
  • Sapphire (for AMD)
Hope this helps, Cheerio!
 
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I have been using ATI cards for the last 10 years and there is absolutely no problem what so ever. 1900XT -> 4850 -> 4870 -> 7970. They are great VFM products with excellent PQ. I have played most latest games on maxed settings (1080p), the 7950 should be able to handle them just fine. My recommendation would also go with the 7950 3GB, you cant go wrong with this card.

All the best!
 
Orija if you are worried about the future go for the GTX670 OR AMD HD7950 3GB. The AMD cards are fine and most members who have a HD7*** series card can corroborate to the same. Will tag a few Jasku, cranky and Chaos.

Brands are upto you. But these are the ones I recommend --
  • GIGABYTE
  • ASUS
  • Sapphire (for AMD)
Hope this helps, Cheerio!

Here is techreport's article on the micro-stuttering in the 7950 which has been acknowledged by AMD. While the 7950 does score higher than the 660ti in benches, it gives a lot of spikes in frame times. Still, the 670 outperforms the 7950 in the AT benches and even outperforms the boosted 7950 in games. Then, to me, the 670 seems to be the best choice amongst the three.

Anyway, the definitive 7950 card, Sapphire VaporX, has been priced at 36k which is way out of my budget while Asus' 670 DC2 costs ~27k.

I'll go for Gigabyte if that's the one you recommend, how is their service? It's just that while Asus has around 4-5 service centers in my city, Gigabyte has just one.

PS: Any idea how long it takes the vendors at Flipkart to restock, because both the cards I've been leaning towards are currently out of stock there? The Gigabyte 660ti you mentioned in the other thread is back in stock though.

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Thanks for the replies, Chaos Jasku, but it's not malfunctioning cards that I'm worried about in 7950's case. While the 670 outperforms the 7950, techreport goes on to claim that even the 660ti is a better alternative.
 
If you can afford a 670, it is faster. However where will you get a 670 for 23k? Lynx is the most unreliable vendor out there - I'd not buy anything from there.

As for microstuttering, I have a GTX 680 for a few days with me. I'll confirm if I notice any difference over the 7970. I'm not sure how reliable the measurements of TR are but in every game I've played on the 7970, I've noticed zero stuttering.
 
The 20-23k budget was for the 660ti which I had thought about purchasing earlier. I can get a 1500 discount on buying from Flipkart so that has allowed me to expand my budget to ~26k. Yes, I'd hate to purchase anything from that guy, but he is the only one selling the Asus 670 in my city, at a decent price. I definitely prefer making the purchase on Flipkart.

The 7970 is one of the fastest cards on the planet, man. I don't the fps to drop low enough for there to be a chance for stuttering.
 
Anyway, the definitive 7950 card, Sapphire VaporX, has been priced at 36k which is way out of my budget while Asus' 670 DC2 costs ~27k.

Here is techreport's article on the micro-stuttering in the 7950 which has been acknowledged by AMD. While the 7950 does score higher than the 660ti in benches, it gives a lot of spikes in frame times.

Why go for the VaporX version of the 7950 specification wise it is matched by the card that @Chaos has linked you too.
Also the card does not retail for ~36000/-, it is yours for ~25800/- (not inclusive shipping) from here --> http://hardwire.in/831-sapphire-7950-vapor-x-3-gb-oc.html.

I don't note such spikes and troughs in the HardOCP Fall shootout between the Kepler and Southern Island cards. HARDOCP - Battlefield 3 - Fall 2012 GPU and Driver Comparison Roundup.

Almost all games used by the Tech Report save Sleeping Dogs are nVidia The Way it is Meant to be Played titles. Something is shifty, only they have these metrics for frame-render latency? Never seen other sites do so.

Not to cast aspersions but something is fishy. Even after trailing in all metrics because of the latency thing the Tech Report says the HD7950 is a poor buy. Also their test RIG is Sandy Bridge-E based not Ivy-Bridge OR Sandy-Bridge, can this be the reason for the performance inconsistency vis-á-vis other websites. Genuine question? @Chaos @cranky and @Jasku.
 
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@ALPHA17 Shouldn't the fact that AMD has acknowledged the problem be enough to lay any doubts about the test's authenticity to rest?
 
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Why go for the VaporX version of the 7950 specification wise it is matched by the card that Chaos has linked you too.
Also the card does not retail for ~36000/-, it is yours for ~25800/- (not inclusive shipping) from here --> Buy Sapphire Vapor-X 7950 Online | India.

I don't note such spikes and troughs in the HardOCP Fall shootout between the Kepler and Southern Island cards. HARDOCP - Battlefield 3 - Fall 2012 GPU and Driver Comparison Roundup.

Almost all games used by the Tech Report save Sleeping Dogs are nVidia The Way it is Meant to be Played titles. Something is shifty, only they have these metrics for frame-render latency? Never seen other sites do so.

Not to cast aspersions but something is fishy. Even after trailing in all metrics because of the latency thing the Tech Report says the HD7950 is a poor buy. Also their test RIG is Sandy Bridge-E based not Ivy-Bridge OR Sandy-Bridge, can this be the reason for the performance inconsistency vis-á-vis other websites. Genuine question? Chaos cranky and Jasku.

TR's latency based review has been in talks all over the net. There is nothing fishy in that review, it is the issue at the driver level which has been acknowledged by AMD itself and they are soon going to address the issue with a CAP update.

On TechReport's frame latency measurement and why gamers should care - Beyond3D Forum

As the second turns: the web digests our game testing methods - The Tech Report

Driver software to be tweaked to reduce Radeon frame latencies in series of updates - The Tech Report
 

Thanks for all the links, Sire. Cheers!

@ALPHA17 Shouldn't the fact that AMD has acknowledged the problem be enough to lay any doubts about the test's authenticity to rest?

I accept it that is why I want others views on it.

I used the words not to cast any aspersions for the very same reasons.

Also if AMD is addressing it and patching it with CAP updates I see no reasons why you should avoid taking the HD7950 3GB and if need be over-clocking it later as it is proven in that field.
 
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I don't have the 7xxx, but 2x6970.

Rig is not yet operational but when it was, I never had any problems that I could have noticed. I was running the cards pretty much at their limit at 2560x, all details maxed out, and max AA/AF. Never had notcieable frame stutter, ever.

I suspect that any single card will be fine at 1920x.

[rant]Please note it is NOT 1080p, that is a video scanline format, whereas 1920x1080 is a pixel count. Games use the latter, not the former. Monitor manufacturers love for this distinction to be blurry, as they immediately saved 15% of screen area for the same diagonal size, and added to some people's retirement funds. There is a reason that good review sites still refer to it as a HxV number which gives you exact pixels. Users should know the difference.[/rant]

Now, to the TR graphs. Those are NOT FPS, but frame render times.

Our first result is a simple plot of the time needed to render each frame during one of our test runs. Because the frame render times are reported in milliseconds, lower times are preferable. Note that, although you may see FPS-over-time plots elsewhere, those usually are based on averaging FPS over successive one-second intervals; as a result, they tend to mask momentary slowdowns almost entirely. Our plots are sourced from the raw frame time data instead.

Whereas it is an interesting approach, I don't see this as anything but creative marketing. 30FPS is 33.333ms per frame (33x30~1000ms). This test basically shows that the 7950 is not able to hit minimum 30FPS mark in some games with the chosen settings - which can also be logged by a simple FPS reader. I don't see the point of displaying the data this way. Stutter is a subjective quality, not objective. Different people will have different sensitivity to it, and a lot of times between your monitor and input peripherals, less than 50ms is pretty difficult to a) detect and b) react to in a gaming situation. The best sim racers have difficulties in judging laptime differences under 300ms, and that is on a known track with a lot of thinking done in advance (unlike fps games where you do a lot of sailing by the seat of your pants, so even larger differences swamp the seemingly irritating 50ms spikes).

Obviously the reviewer has noticed visible micro-stutter. What we do not know is whether the fact came before the data, or after it. And we will never know. However, this does not necessarily mean you will or will not. I do not have sufficient data to recommend a card at this point in time. Have not done enough background checking, not being in the market for a card myself. However you must understand that every reviewer in the world, in every category, tries a fresh approach and a fresh perspective. Whereas I do not believe the TR link is dishonest, I do also not believe that the 7950 has trouble at 1920x, that an average Joe will notice - unless there is something desperately wrong with the system.

Good Luck with your search.

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ALPHA17 Shouldn't the fact that AMD has acknowledged the problem be enough to lay any doubts about the test's authenticity to rest?

Unfortunately, no.

If I was AMD and a particular way of testing the cards put me at a huge disadvantage to a rival, I would definitely try and fix it.

Whether or not this affected perceived performance of the card, or made it a better or worse buy, it wouldn't have mattered. Older users will remember how nVidia would cheat at 3DM tests by killing image quality in 'optimised' drivers and users had to resort to hacks to get their better IQ 'back'.

The world is run by marketing, my friend. The simplest fix would be to set your refresh rate to 30Hz and switch Vsync 'ON' with all games, and back off IQ settings in games that force the card to 'dip' below 30FPS.

In real world terms, I would bet that none but the best fighter pilots could tell the difference between smooth motion at 24 versus 30fps.
 
[rant]Please note it is NOT 1080p, that is a video scanline format, whereas 1920x1080 is a pixel count. Games use the latter, not the former. Monitor manufacturers love for this distinction to be blurry, as they immediately saved 15% of screen area for the same diagonal size, and added to some people's retirement funds. There is a reason that good review sites still refer to it as a HxV number which gives you exact pixels. Users should know the difference.[/rant]

Now, to the TR graphs. Those are NOT FPS, but frame render times.

Yea, I know about that, it's just that 1920x1080 would have taken a lot more space in the title. :bleh: And, yes, I know they're frame times. I can see where you and @Alpha!& are coming from and convinced me that 7950 is not a bad choice.

I still lean towards the 670 though as it does outperforms the 7950. But if the 670 remains unavailable, I'll go for the 7950. Another thing, when Nvidia launched the 6-series whose high end cards outperformed AMD's 7950 and 7970 there was this talk of releasing another iteration of the 7950. One that I had higher clocks(I'm unsure on this) and performance, is the 23k Sapphire Flex part of the 7950 cards launched in the beginning or after AMD promised boosted performance?
 
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Use 1920x :)

Wouldn't know about the Sapphire, but my point was not on whether you should or should not get the 7950, just that you should be clear why you did or did not get it. Fancy reviews could steer you in directions that may not always be correct. I haven't used the 7950 or even seen it so I cannot comment on whether it will be smooth. I can only speculate that given my far slower cards, at higher resolutions, do not exhibit this issue, any noticeable stutter may be just a case of internal persuasion after seeing a benchmark result.

Then again, it may not. Given that this is the first time this issue has even surfaced, and that after five months of a launch with cards already running with non-complaining end-users, I suspect it is an interesting approach to TR's marketing. Kudos to them for getting AMD to do something about it, but it might be only a benchmark issue, not a usability problem.
 
I still lean towards the 670 though as it does outperforms the 7950. But if the 670 remains unavailable, I'll go for the 7950. Another thing, when Nvidia launched the 6-series whose high end cards outperformed AMD's 7950 and 7970 there was this talk of releasing another iteration of the 7950. One that I had higher clocks(I'm unsure on this) and performance, is the 23k Sapphire Flex part of the 7950 cards launched in the beginning or after AMD promised boosted performance?

I will take the glass half-full approach to the situation.

The HD7950 3GB performs at par to the GTX670 and costs lower. Features a more powerful COMPUTE architecture that allows it to be a more holistic choice in the long run.

The card that @cranky Sire has linked you to is the boosted core-clock version. Also if you feel the performance is not upto scratch (unlikely) I suggest that you over-clock the same.
 
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Discount coupon at flipkart?. How did that happen?.

Friend bought an Asus laptop priced at ~50k from there.

I will take the glass half-full approach to the situation.

The HD7950 3GB performs at par to the GTX670 and costs lower. Features a more powerful COMPUTE architecture that allows it to be a more holistic choice in the long run.

The card that cranky Sire has linked you to is the boosted core-clock version. Also if you feel the performance is not upto scratch (unlikely) I suggest that you over-clock the same.

But at stock levels the 670 beats it in every game, in the AT benches you linked to, and I need the card for gaming only, I think I can do without the gimped compute performance.
 
But at stock levels the 670 beats it in every game, in the AT benches you linked to, and I need the card for gaming only, I think I can do without the gimped compute performance.

With the boosted core-clock (850MHz core-clock) you will perform equivalent OR better to the GTX670, so why worry.

AnandTech - Bench - GPU12, this is with the 850MHz core-clock Boost edition.

In nVidia sponsored titles also the gap between the two is closed. Some titles are biased towards nVidia so what to do.

With the upcoming Catalyst 12.11 drivers expect a further bump (hopefully), check here for more details and performance stats. HARDOCP - Test Setup - Fall 2012 GPU and Driver Comparison Roundup

In the above shoot-out the core-clock of the Boost edition is ~925MHz and the card you are buying has a 850MHz clock, you can simply over-clock without tweaking the voltage values to get similar results. Cheers!
 
You make a sound case but the thing is, I'd rather have a card that doesn't require overclocking. The only other card I've owned is a somewhat malfunctioning 9800gt and neither do I have any sort of cooling system in place.
 
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