Apple vs Facebook

Which side are you on?

  • Total voters
    18
T

t3chg33k

Skilled
Get the popcorn out!

Facebook: https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/17/22180102/facebook-new-newspaper-ad-apple-ios-14-privacy-prompt
Apple: https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/16...y-changes-standing-up-for-users-facebook-data

I agree with the EFF on this. While it is amusing to see the exchange, it is sad that FB rides on the shoulders of small merchants to defend their unethical user surveillance. I find the emotional ads they are airing in India along the same lines to be especially cringeworthy. Unfortunately, most users in India are completely unaware of or disregard data privacy, which is quite unfortunate. Data is cheap for the individual but a gold mine for companies like FB. Free isn't worth it when you end up paying many times over in other ways.

Bonus: https://www.esquire.com/uk/latest-n...led-people-who-handed-over-their-data-dumb-f/
 
Finally someone calling out the hypocrisy even though they are themselves one of the worst offenders of data privacy... This is the fight of chor vs daku...

Hopefully all of the worst practices of all companies come out during this fight amongst them... Which is the best outcome for users... Now let the websites and blogs fight it out depending on who pays their salaries

I don't believe any company is innocent and now it seems pretence won't work any longer as the other companies calling them out have billions and billions of dollars to burn as well
 
It's not as if Apple particularly cares about the sanctity of their user's data or whatever. IMO, their aim is to a. beef up their sales pitch of their devices being more private than Androids, and b. Route most user demographic/behavioral data through themselves to increase the value of their own advertising ecosystem and open up additional revenue streams.

Facebook is just farther along in the ad game than Apple is at the moment; give it another 5 years and Apple will be exhibiting the same behavior as Facebook.
 
calvin1719 said:
It's not as if Apple particularly cares about the sanctity of their user's data or whatever. IMO, their aim is to a. beef up their sales pitch of their devices being more private than Androids, and b. Route most user demographic/behavioral data through themselves to increase the value of their own advertising ecosystem and open up additional revenue streams.

Facebook is just farther along in the ad game than Apple is at the moment; give it another 5 years and Apple will be exhibiting the same behavior as Facebook.
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While you may be right that Apple is no saint and is peddling "Privacy" but still I feel their main business is Hardware and not selling the information of consumers. The amount of money they earn from hardware probably is good enough for them to not bother selling our info and while doing so they can also showcase themselves as different from others who don't sell your data and this ends up being win-win situation for them.

Also, not all people who buy Apple do so for "Privacy" reason, hell I guess 99% people don't even know what privacy is in context of mobile services and such. It is just that they may like using Apple devices.
 
raksrules said:
While you may be right that Apple is no saint and is peddling "Privacy" but still I feel their main business is Hardware and not selling the information of consumers
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True, currently it is hardware, but that's why I mentioned opening up additional revenue streams. They'd need to provide advertisers with a strong reason to advertise through their ecosystem rather than a 3P ecosystem showing ads on their devices, for their ad business to mature and make up a significant fraction of their revenue.

raksrules said:
probably is good enough for them to not bother selling our info
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Oh sweet summer child, this is a capitalist company you're talking about. No amount is good enough, ever.

Edit: Also, Apple controlling the user data that is collected gives them a strong foundation on which to claim that the data is used in a privacy-first, anonymized fashion, whether or not that's actually true.
 
In future, Apple's major earning source will be services. Apple selling user data is unlikely because its users are already willing to pay money for apps and services it offers. Facebook on the other hand relies entirely on advertisements so it will keep on looking for new ways to get more data. I am okay with sharing my data if ads shown are relevant and the product and services I use or search are not tied to my personal profile. That's why I like google. I search for a product and google immediately shows relevant links and saves my time. Facebook too saved me money a lot of times by recommending me right products at the right time (eg sale). I wish Facebook stop making such deep personal profiles of its users. The kind of data Facebook collects is ridiculous.
 
calvin1719 said:
True, currently it is hardware, but that's why I mentioned opening up additional revenue streams. They'd need to provide advertisers with a strong reason to advertise through their ecosystem rather than a 3P ecosystem showing ads on their devices, for their ad business to mature and make up a significant fraction of their revenue.


Oh sweet summer child, this is a capitalist company you're talking about. No amount is good enough, ever.

Edit: Also, Apple controlling the user data that is collected gives them a strong foundation on which to claim that the data is used in a privacy-first, anonymized fashion, whether or not that's actually true.
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Keeping Apple side and its marketing focus on data privacy, I think even Google does a good job of anonymizing the data and not allowing any company to trace it back to the user.

However, FB has blatantly provided identifiable data to advertisers. Their APIs have time and again leaked a lot more data than a company needs for advertising purposes as was indicated by Cambridge Analytica. It is definitely not inadvertent as FB probably gets paid a lot more than Google for the additional metadata. FB is unethical be design which is probably the worst part of their data gathering and sharing exercise.
 
bracknelson said:
By the way, how is it possible for Apple to get all the votes? Can anyone explain it?
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I'm seriously surprised that you're asking this question even after the recent Whatsapp scandal that happened with the Indian Govt few days back.

In case you're unaware, I highly suggest watching 'The Social Dilemma' and comeback into this discussion. It's a documentary made by the people who created Facebook and other social platforms. Available on Netflix.

The movie will change your entire perception of what Facebook can do in this digital age.
 
calvin1719 said:
It's not as if Apple particularly cares about the sanctity of their user's data or whatever. IMO, their aim is to a. beef up their sales pitch of their devices being more private than Androids, and b. Route most user demographic/behavioral data through themselves to increase the value of their own advertising ecosystem and open up additional revenue streams.

Facebook is just farther along in the ad game than Apple is at the moment; give it another 5 years and Apple will be exhibiting the same behavior as Facebook.
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This. 100% accurate. Don't know why some people believe(mostly just apple users) that apple is some sacrosanct company not trying to look out for their selfish gains by whatever means.

Data, advertising, privacy, flimsy cables, proprietary connectors, deliberately slowing down devices, taking 12 billion a year payment from Google so that Google can harvest apple users data which apple is unable to make use of - just go and look at the past litany of cases against them for which they have paid fines or settled by paying.

Despite sitting on billions and billions and billions of dollars in cash reserves if still a company is greedy enough to increase the profit by removing chargers and earphones from their boxes, you seriously think such a company is not capitalist and greedy to the core? It is just a question of trade off. For apple when it becomes more profitable to use data instead of selling the right of that data to other companies like Google, they will start harvesting it themselves instead of outsourcing it
 
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msankadi said:
This. 100% accurate. Don't know why some people believe(mostly just apple users) that apple is some sacrosanct company not trying to look out for their selfish gains by whatever means.

Data, advertising, privacy, flimsy cables, proprietary connectors, deliberately slowing down devices, taking 12 billion a year payment from Google so that Google can harvest apple users data which apple is unable to make use of - just go and look at the past litany of cases against them for which they have paid fines or settled by paying.

Despite sitting on billions and billions and billions of dollars in cash reserves if still a company is greedy enough to increase the profit by removing chargers and earphones from their boxes, you seriously think such a company is not capitalist and greedy to the core? It is just a question of trade off. For apple when it becomes more profitable to use data instead of selling the right of that data to other companies like Google, they will start harvesting it themselves instead of outsourcing it
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The thing is that you only look at one side of the argument. Companies reveal their revenue sources in their financial statements and Google/FB are absolutely dependent on the income from sharing data with the advertisers. On the other hand, Apple's income stream is primarily from products and services. A cynic might say that they failed in their advertising business but that is precisely the reason they pivoted to privacy and in that sense it benefits the users as well. You can read about their approach over here. You can request all the data that a company holds and you can compare Apple's data with what Facebook and Google have on you. Spoiler, it is magnitudes less, despite the same GDPR regulations being applied to all companies in Europe.

You can call removing of chargers and earphones as greed but it is part of its target to achieve 100% carbon neutrality by 2030. If you are talking about greed, then think of all the Chinese companies that are following in Apple's footsteps by removing accessories while still being the worst polluters on the planet and exploiting minorities/child labour.

Yep, most companies are greedy capitalists but it comes down to what they offer you and the planet as a whole in return.
 
t3chg33k said:
The thing is that you only look at one side of the argument. Companies reveal their revenue sources in their financial statements and Google/FB are absolutely dependent on the income from sharing data with the advertisers. On the other hand, Apple's income stream is primarily from products and services. A cynic might say that they failed in their advertising business but that is precisely the reason they pivoted to privacy and in that sense it benefits the users as well. You can read about their approach over here. You can request all the data that a company holds and you can compare Apple's data with what Facebook and Google have on you. Spoiler, it is magnitudes less, despite the same GDPR regulations being applied to all companies in Europe.

You can call removing of chargers and earphones as greed but it is part of its target to achieve 100% carbon neutrality by 2030. If you are talking about greed, then think of all the Chinese companies that are following in Apple's footsteps by removing accessories while still being the worst polluters on the planet and exploiting minorities/child labour.

Yep, most companies are greedy capitalists but it comes down to what they offer you and the planet as a whole in return.
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You seriously believe that they care about the environment!!! I don't have anything to say to you in that case you can keep living in your bubble.

Targeting carbon neutrality by sticking everything in the phone and any apple device with adhesive so that it is not repairable? Designing every part so that it requires proprietary cables and cannot be repaired by any other repairman - just when they can be repaired 10% of the time? What type of carbon green company wants to generate a lot of digital waste instead of creating repairable devices? They deliberately create devices that cannot be repaired so that customers are forced to buy new ones and renders older devices as pure waste.

Apple has 90% of its devices manufactured by the same Chinese laborers and manufacturers whom you are supposedly protecting by buying Apple devices.

It is just plain and simple profit that is driving them to say crap that is not backed by their current actions forget future actions. Whatever helps them sell their devices they say that today. Some people see what they say and some see their actions instead of taking their words at face value.
 
msankadi said:
You seriously believe that they care about the environment!!! I don't have anything to say to you in that case you can keep living in your bubble.

Targeting carbon neutrality by sticking everything in the phone and any apple device with adhesive so that it is not repairable? Designing every part so that it requires proprietary cables and cannot be repaired by any other repairman - just when they can be repaired 10% of the time? What type of carbon green company wants to generate a lot of digital waste instead of creating repairable devices? They deliberately create devices that cannot be repaired so that customers are forced to buy new ones and renders older devices as pure waste.

Apple has 90% of its devices manufactured by the same Chinese laborers which you are supposedly protecting by buying Apple devices.

It is just plain and simple profit that is driving them to say crap that is not backed by their current actions forget future actions. Whatever helps them sell their devices they say that today. Some people see what they say and some see their actions instead of taking their words at face value.
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No, I don't condone Apple's tactics of locking devices and reducing reparability. But then, the entire industry has gone that way. If there was any economic benefit, then Samsung would have continued making phones with replaceable batteries. However, these tactics impact their carbon footprint and if they are yet achieving net carbon neutrality despite that (including their suppliers), then it means their environmental impact is significantly less and thus helpful to everyone on the planet.

Despite manufacturing in China, Apple still conducts regular audits and then takes actions based on the report. There is at least accountability present. It is good that it is forcing Apple to shift production to Vietnam and India which by itself is not an easy process. The Chinese companies simply ignore the exploitation altogether.

As I mentioned previously, you have to look at the bigger picture. Simply harboring hatred for a specific capitalist company is to no one's benefit.
 
t3chg33k said:
No, I don't condone Apple's tactics of locking devices and reducing reparability. But then, the entire industry has gone that way. If there was any economic benefit, then Samsung would have continued making phones with replaceable batteries. However, these tactics impact their carbon footprint and if they are yet achieving net carbon neutrality despite that (including their suppliers), then it means their environmental impact is significantly less and thus helpful to everyone on the planet.

Despite manufacturing in China, Apple still conducts regular audits and then takes actions based on the report. There is at least accountability present. It is good that it is forcing Apple to shift production to Vietnam and India which by itself is not an easy process. The Chinese companies simply ignore the exploitation altogether.

As I mentioned previously, you have to look at the bigger picture. Simply harboring hatred for a specific capitalist company is to no one's benefit.
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You haven't mentioned anything at all that will help anyone look at the bigger picture, just rehashed information from Apple's propaganda. Not a single fact. Simply favoring one capitalist company or believing their words blindly because they are shouting the loudest or are the richest at this point of time doesn't benefit anyone.

1. They create unrepairable devices - You don't condone it because it is Apple! Seriously? Why not? Because it is an apple and you like them that is why.
2. They still manufacture most of their products from the same Chinese companies and laborers but they are better because they are accountable - How? Where is the data? No one knows but we are supposed to believe it why?
3. For the past 20 years they have been complicit in exploiting the environment and Chinese laborers but now as they are rich, they want to take the high road and cut off the cheap supply for other companies? How convenient. 100 chuhe khake billi chali haj ko. Woh bhi supposedly
4. If they are so concerned about the privacy of their users why don't they stop google products on Apple altogether? Stop facebook completely on ios. Why this ho halla. Act instead of preaching.
5. 2030 is 10 years down the line so let's see if they can achieve what they are claiming to do in the future by making money from the users today by advertising it today. 10 years is a long time in a company's history that has barely come out of bankruptcy 20 years ago.
 
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