Health & Fitness Corona is in full swing and its not Joke !

bssunilreddy

Skilled
This shows that you don't understand occam's razor, and more importantly, why it is required. Spoiler : It does not say that the simplest explanation is the correct one.

Why do we need it ? There are literally an infinite number of non-simplest explanations of any observation in an experiment. If scientists bother with those, science can never progress. Ideal response to someone suggesting a non-simplest explanation is to not reply. Since you area nice guy, and discussion here does not impede real science, so I explain here.

In a way, Occam's razor prevents DDos attack on science by inundating it with irrelevant questions, if this analogy makes sense to you.

E.g. take Rutherford's gold foil experiment. The scattering of Alpha particles could have been explained by celestial bodies, weather patterns, Rutherford's mood etc. For hundreds of years, "critics" could have kept asking to "consider" their alternative explanation because the "simplest explanation is not always the correct one". By avoiding to talk about the non-simplest explanation, science avoids being roadblocked by vested interests, and general troublemakers.

COVID is far less important than the very concept of science. Just for digging the origins of COVID, if we ditch the very principles that helped us reach this scientific level, it will be a net loss to the world.

Once we ditch the Occam's razor, what prevents us from considering that a pig flew from Philippines at night , exploded in Wuhan, and scattered this virus all over ? There is equal evidence of that, and the "engineered" virus. Zero.
Excellent explanation. Keep it up man.
 

ibose

Patron
This shows that you don't understand occam's razor, and more importantly, why it is required. Spoiler : It does not say that the simplest explanation is the correct one.
Thank you for this detailed lesson on Occam's razor but what is the point of your essay in relation to the context at hand ?
While this is all semantics, a diversionary tactic and has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand, but let me indulge you for a moment.
You have not mentioned what occam's razor actually states although you have beaten every bush about it. Let's correct that, shall we ? It states -
“other things being equal, simpler explanations are generally better than more complex ones”
You have conveniently forgotten the clause "other things being equal". Sufficient questions have been already posed which cannot be answered by your "simplest explanation" when it comes to the Covid's origins (you can read all about it in the links I posted) so you cannot "escape" with Occam as things are no longer equal.
COVID is far less important than the very concept of science.
I am all for science but given the current context, and the incalculable impact it is still having on your and everyone's lives I am sorry to say, but this borders somewhat on the delusional. Somehow Sheldon comes to mind :).
Just for digging the origins of COVID, if we ditch the very principles that helped us reach this scientific level, it will be a net loss to the world.
What principles are you referring to ? Occam's Razor ? Well I can use that to argue that the Earth is flat and God is the reason for everything in this universe. Who needs science ?
Once we ditch the Occam's razor, what prevents us from considering that a pig flew from Philippines at night , exploded in Wuhan, and scattered this virus all over ?
Nothing. But do you know that to be true or have any evidence to that effect ? Again I can say God is the reason this happened which is even simpler than your argument.
There is equal evidence of that, and the "engineered" virus. Zero.
Either prove it with indisputable evidence that it was not engineered or provide such scientific evidence to counter the questions being posed to that effect. Don't just hide behind some principle which does not even apply to a rational argument.
 
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Ankit2306

Disciple
Coupled with the recent Ganga Sagar Mela in west bengal , pretty sure the numbers ar going to rise a lot , hundreds of buses are moving in and out towards Ganga Sagar Mela , nearly no awareness are seen among the pilgrims....
 

rdst_1

Skilled
Either prove it with indisputable evidence that it was not engineered or provide such scientific evidence to counter the questions being posed to that effect. Don't just hide behind some principle which does not even apply to a rational argument.

Ever heard of the phrase - Innocent until proven guilty. This is what the civilized world works on. It's your job to prove that this virus was engineered and not the other way round. And that was also the gist of Kiran's post in regards to science. It's the job of the people asking the questions to prove that their theories are correct and not of the scientist to go around disproving everyone else's doubts.
Whether the virus was engineered or not, there were plenty of harsh sentiments against China, because of the way they handled the pandemic. Similar thing had happened at the time of Chernobyl. But what became of that sentiment. Nothing. Soon the world realized that no one would be able to function properly if we were to shun the Chinese for this act. They have the whole world in their grip due to their manufacturing prowess and that's why they are able to behave this way and still get away with it.
 

bssunilreddy

Skilled
Ever heard of the phrase - Innocent until proven guilty. This is what the civilized world works on. It's your job to prove that this virus was engineered and not the other way round. And that was also the gist of Kiran's post in regards to science. It's the job of the people asking the questions to prove that their theories are correct and not of the scientist to go around disproving everyone else's doubts.
Whether the virus was engineered or not, there were plenty of harsh sentiments against China, because of the way they handled the pandemic. Similar thing had happened at the time of Chernobyl. But what became of that sentiment. Nothing. Soon the world realized that no one would be able to function properly if we were to shun the Chinese for this act. They have the whole world in their grip due to their manufacturing prowess and that's why they are able to behave this way and still get away with it.
Check this visit & it's report by 25 national & international experts:
 

ibose

Patron
Ever heard of the phrase - Innocent until proven guilty. This is what the civilized world works on. It's your job to prove that this virus was engineered and not the other way round.
So answer the questions posed already on the evidence provided. Let folks investigate instead of hiding and always defending something with some principle which is non-operational in any practical scenario. My point was simple - What is there to hide ? Do you stop asking questions or stop investigating something which is not conclusively established ? I started my point with a question and in response I get something in the name of Science which is downright dangerous. If this is how we intend to progress Science then God help us.
It's the job of the people asking the questions to prove that their theories are correct and not of the scientist to go around disproving everyone else's doubts.
Again then let them investigate and clear the "doubts". Why are they being stopped ? So that the Chinese people will feel that their Govt. is not all powerful ? Really ?
Soon the world realized that no one would be able to function properly if we were to shun the Chinese for this act. They have the whole world in their grip due to their manufacturing prowess and that's why they are able to behave this way and still get away with it.
This is absolutely true and that is why they are able to get away with it, which is unfortunate. But this should not be a reason to defend their actions.
Check this visit & it's report by 25 national & international experts
I was waiting for this to pop up. Please go back and read up. This half baked attempt was riddled with so many holes since they were not given the required access to evidence. Who themselves do not stand by it anymore.
 

kiran6680

Disciple
Either prove it with indisputable evidence that it was not engineered
Since you believe that others need to disprove your theories to disagree, why don't you start by disproving the Filipino pig theory, and a few other theories I have. I promise I will prove that the virus was not engineered after that.

Actually, lord Kartikeya had a liver malfunction, and one drop of his bile fell in Wuhan when he was fighting demons in the sky. That drop was the source of this novel corona virus.
 

ibose

Patron
You are not doing as you preach. You need to disprove my theories as you expect others to disprove yours. I have a few more, don't worry.
I don't need to do anything. The questions and studies are all in public domain and for everyone to see. And please do go read up on Occams razor again before quoting it.
 

kiran6680

Disciple
I don't need to do anything. The questions and studies are all in public domain and for everyone to see. And please do go read up on Occams razor again before quoting it.
Why do others need to "prove it with indisputable evidence that it was not engineered" (your words) ?

If you prove one of my theories wrong, at least I'll know that you know what it means to prove something. If my theories are ridiculous, they should be easy to prove wrong, right ?
 
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rdst_1

Skilled
Again then let them investigate and clear the "doubts". Why are they being stopped ? So that the Chinese people will feel that their Govt. is not all powerful ? Really ?

Why would China, which is practically, a dictatorship, allow anyone to come in and investigate in their country. You are talking about practicality and real world scenarios, then how can you ignore the fact that, no country, let alone a dictatorship, will allow that. And China is no Iraq either, which the western forces can attack under the garb of false, unproven accusations. The West, or the modern world, has no right to make such accusations and act on them after what they have done to Iraq. And like you have agreed to above, they can't even put sanctions on China because it is the manufacturing hub of the world. Whatever Trump was, in his dumbness, he actually went ahead and at least imposed import tariffs on China. But it's a long and arduous journey to wrest away the power that China has over the world right now. Even if you were to somehow prove conclusively that China accidentally/intentionally released this engineered virus, you won't be able to punish them. Not in the current state the world is in.
 

ibose

Patron
You are talking about practicality and real world scenarios, then how can you ignore the fact that, no country, let alone a dictatorship, will allow that.
If there is appropriate international pressure who knows what can happen. They are not an isolated economy and also depend on others. But we appear to have already given up, taken for granted and even defending them ?
The West, or the modern world, has no right to make such accusations and act on them after what they have done to Iraq.
Why stop there ? Tiananmen square, Hong Kong, and then you will say Vietnam, World wars. I get your point that no one is goody goody any more but that does not mean we should accept everything at face value without questioning it when there is evidence to the contrary.
But it's a long and arduous journey to wrest away the power that China has over the world right now.
Yes and one can hope that the geopolitics already underway does eventually lead to a point where this dominance is broken.
 

rdst_1

Skilled
I get your point that no one is goody goody any more but that does not mean we should accept everything at face value without questioning it when there is evidence to the contrary.

Yes and one can hope that the geopolitics already underway does eventually lead to a point where this dominance is broken.

I completely agree. Ironically, in most discussions about our government, I am in your shoes. This was a good point in history when there was so much sentiment against China (whether for justifiable reason or not), but I see the momentum slipping away. Neither the governments did anything meaningful, nor did businesses, because capitalism doesn't have any place for such emotions. It's all about the bottom line in the end.
 

bssunilreddy

Skilled
Trump put trade ban on china while they shifted some big companies like Apple, Microsoft, Samsung to India as their next big hub.
Even Foxconn setup shop in India to provide parts to these big companies.

Need to wait until our biggies like Jindal who said would setup EV parts hub along with Tata sons as well.

So the big shift has started already to India.
 
^^ Voting season, can't fully stop Makara Sankranti dip Omnicron yatra. So, no need to count infection rate.
Now, can easily sit blaming cities where national ruling party is not in power. For eg., after a month, mock Kerala for having high rates, having successfully spread the pandemic in very nook and corner of the country and failed miserably in protecting people by hiding, fudging statistics.
Where is the difficulty in understanding this :) /s
 
let an independent organization investigate thoroughly without any undue influence and confirm it once and for all
That was the point I was trying to make. No sovereign country would allow any third party to come into their nation and put blame on them. The same way India doesn't allow outsiders for Human Rights violations is same as Israel or USA not allowing for their part. A flaw in the system of international world order as others have mentioned here.
Anyways, we discussing about Chinese approach is not going to change things on the ground. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to use this thread for more domestic purposes to ride against this pandemic.
^^ Voting season, can't fully stop Makara Sankranti dip Omnicron yatra. So, no need to count infection rate.
Now, can easily sit blaming cities where national ruling party is not in power. For eg., after a month, mock Kerala for having high rates, having successfully spread the pandemic in very nook and corner of the country and failed miserably in protecting people by hiding, fudging statistics.
Where is the difficulty in understanding this :) /s
This politics is going to kill our country one day, I tell you. :banghead:
 
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