How to deal with these idiots!!??


red dragon

Justiceforall
Veteran
There is no HR department where I work. Me and my wife are supposed to manage a team of 28 people (24 doctors and 4 support staff) in the section dealing with substance abuse/ mental health issues.
6 doctors have recently joined this team ( 2 from India, both from Punjab / Hariyana area, both from the same medical school in Delhi.. batchmates)
Now all the new people are working directly under us ( 6 months training ) since we are yet to get clearance for Africa, the original trainors have gone to their own countries for extended Christmas holidays.
Now I don't know any of the new people all that well, they created a WhatsApp group and included Len and me in it. And it's the usual hi, hello, goodmorning type of messages and I've turned the notification off ( they are supposed to email for anything important)
Now one of the regular trainer ( on vacation in Germany) called me up this morning ( he's in that whatsapp group as he was the one who started their trainings) and told me to check whatsapp and sounded pretty worried and pissed off.
And to my horror I found that one of the Indian trainee posted some very objectionable photographs of a British girl, another trainee last night!! And called her an whore etc. There were more than 100 messages from all 6 of them throughout the night...it was a nightmare and neither Len or me could understand anything from all the messages..it was complete clusterfuck!!
I straightway called that guy who posted those photos. According to him the girl was sleeping with him almost on daily basis and yesterday evening he proposed her ( all of them 4 guys, 2 girls went out for dinner) in front of everyone, and she somehow not only rejected him, but also humiliated him in front of everyone by calling him a nigger etc. So the photos were his revenge!!
We called all of them at HQ, the Brit girl told us the guy is harassing her from day one and they had slept once in a drunken state.
Both are ready to go to the police..the 2nd Indian guy is supporting his friend, the other 2 guys ( from Sweden and Germany) didn't want to take any side but the second girl ( from my country Czechia) is with the Brit.
Now these are all grown ass people ( heck, all are doctors) behaving like highschool kids.
I am really pissed off about the Brit ( she told Len in private that it's obvious that I would try to defend the guy as he's Indian)
Can't let this go out of hand or let the police in...as all of them are living in the trainee quarters and if it leaks, it will be a big scandal.
There's no such thing as HR department..there are administrators, but I don't want those idiots interfering with professionals.
For now, we've diffused the situation partially by deleting all the photos but the guy seemed really upset and can do nasty things to the girl.
We really need to be neutral here and do something to end this amicably.
Personally I'm really angry at both ( the guy is a complete idiot to propose someone from a different country within few weeks, the girl is really obnoxious... but we must protect her)
 

letmein

Well-Known Member
Adept
Asking internet strangers what to do is the right thing.
Also I thought you worked for the WHO. A UN organization has no HR department?
 

nRiTeCh

Well-Known Member
Veteran
Thats a serious office...most of them sexual harassments.
 
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calvin1719

Well-Known Member
Disciple
You're working off hearsay on what happened at dinner, while you know what happened on whatsapp. Fire the guy for unprofessional conduct and sexual harassment, let the woman know racism won't be tolerated. But then again, I'm just a chap halfway around the world with no picture of the priorities or considerations.

it will be a big scandal.
So what? If something needs legal involvement, the image of parties not directly involved in the matter shouldn't be a consideration, even if it's the employer.
 

rdst_1

Well-Known Member
Veteran
He proposed to her just after a few days of fooling around. She did nothing wrong by rejecting his proposal. He acted wrongly by posting her objectionable pictures as revenge. She would have a very easy case against him if she went to police. Unless there is a rule explicitly forbidding relationships among colleagues, you can't say the girl has done anything wrong. Frankly, if I was incharge the guy would have been let go by now. Technically since whatever happened was after hours, it shouldn't have had a consequence on anybody if they had acted maturely. But now the girl has a case that she can be continued to be harassed by the guy and therefore, either they should be given different assignments or if not possible, the guy should be the one getting the boot.
 
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red dragon

Justiceforall
Veteran
Asking internet strangers what to do is the right thing.
Also I thought you worked for the WHO. A UN organization has no HR department?
FYI, I am not employed by WHO, I'm a consultant who is hired by WHO.
I'm not flexing, just telling the truth..after a certain level WHO can not control us, we are given complete authority over a large area ( spanning across countries)
WHO's HRD deals with normal employees and medical officers. These people are all public health specialists. They are selected / interviewed by us consultants and some of them become consultants after 2 years ( with appropriate educational qualification)
We only report to DG directly if needed. WHO doesn't work like normal organizations for us. Sure 98 percent of it is typical, but we don't work under anybody.
About asking online strangers..
Rather going to those idiot MBA type administrators, I would have asked my parents ( if they were alive)...yes, I hate those corporate types this much...those assholes would do nothing, just fire these 2 doctors ( whom we need to continue the work)
The corporate culture almost destroyed this beautiful organization and we are trying to take everything away from those suite wearing monkeys travelling in fancy cars ( bought by money begged and earned by us and our DG)
I'm really glad that you ask this question...by 2022 WHO will again become a doctor/ public health experts only organization. Finance is no rocket science, we have people with multiple PhDs and post doctoral degrees, we can manage finances, IT will be outsourced.
The bloody HR is almost gone and those leeches are never coming back. We need dedicated, brave, goon type doctors to function properly.
I need both these doctors to stay!!
 
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Party Monger

Well-Known Member
Veteran
b**ch slap the dude and ask him to man the **** up. Remind him his sexual harassment is on record and remind him of the laws and how long he will spend in jail before being sent back to india.
Not to mention he can kiss his career goodbye. No one is going to let a sexual harasser examine them, much less follow their advice.

I dont see the problem here. If the dude is adamant and is ready to commit harakiri, let him. Cause I dont see the girl sharing his pics and calling him a hoe. Hes the one doing the drama. Stupid indians and their egos cant even take a ****ing rejection mfs.
 

letmein

Well-Known Member
Adept
The bloody HR is almost gone and those leeches are never coming back. We need dedicated, brave, goon type doctors to function properly.
I need both these doctors to stay!!

Excellent, excellent. So you are condoning sexual harassment. Well done doc. Am glad you're not practicing in my country anymore.
 

princeoo7

On a Journey called Life :P
Veteran
You're working off hearsay on what happened at dinner, while you know what happened on whatsapp. Fire the guy for unprofessional conduct and sexual harassment, let the woman know racism won't be tolerated. But then again, I'm just a chap halfway around the world with no picture of the priorities or considerations.


So what? If something needs legal involvement, the image of parties not directly involved in the matter shouldn't be a consideration, even if it's the employer.
Scandal means he and is wife are on stake as they are on high authority side. common sense bro :angelic:
FYI, I am not employed by WHO, I'm a consultant who is hired by WHO.
I'm not flexing, just telling the truth..after a certain level WHO can not control us, we are given complete authority over a large area ( spanning across countries)
WHO's HRD deals with normal employees and medical officers. These people are all public health specialists. They are selected / interviewed by us consultants and some of them become consultants after 2 years ( with appropriate educational qualification)
We only report to DG directly if needed. WHO doesn't work like normal organizations for us. Sure 98 percent of it is typical, but we don't work under anybody.
About asking online strangers..
Rather going to those idiot MBA type administrators, I would have asked my parents ( if they were alive)...yes, I hate those corporate types this much...those assholes would do nothing, just fire these 2 doctors ( whom we need to continue the work)
The corporate culture almost destroyed this beautiful organization and we are trying to take everything away from those suite wearing monkeys travelling in fancy cars ( bought by money begged and earned by us and our DG)
I'm really glad that you ask this question...by 2022 WHO will again become a doctor/ public health experts only organization. Finance is no rocket science, we have people with multiple PhDs and post doctoral degrees, we can manage finances, IT will be outsourced.
The bloody HR is almost gone and those leeches are never coming back. We need dedicated, brave, goon type doctors to function properly.
I need both these doctors to stay!!
can we get them married and get this matter closed ? Or you can use your authority to show what will happen if they try to extend this matter more than they have already done. Fake it out in your own way that they will have to pay heavly in their future ;) You don't mean harm but this is serious sh!t with people going to deal with someone else life. They need to be taugh a proper lesson if needed. I personally would have said F***O** and get your dam work done else pay with a mark on your future.
 
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laIn

Member
Recruit
do realize though if you decide not to take any action and just bury it and it comes out in the future(especially, in a post metoo world) then it will lead to a much bigger scandal especially given WHO image after corona and then things can get much worse not just for the parties involved but for you and your wife too.
 
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red dragon

Justiceforall
Veteran
Excellent, excellent. So you are condoning sexual harassment. Well done doc. Am glad you're not practicing in my country anymore.
No sir, I'm not. I'm still trying to assess the situation properly.
I need both of them for the work. You seemed to forget they are both adult and had consensual sex.
Of course the guy did a nasty thing, but the girl also crossed a line...
And listen bud,
I'm eligible enough to practice wherever I want to.
I'm here to help them finish their training, not to interfere with their personal affairs unless it's disrupting the work.
I was going too soft with them.. Christmas and all. From tomorrow I will just bury them with work, they won't be able to stand straight after the assignments..both will break and come out with the truth, apologize to one another and move on.
I will make the guy work so hard, he will understand his true worth.
They have no clues to what kind of work ethics I follow.
I just don't understand this obsession with white skin among Indian men...I'm married to one...they hate those dreaded empty 3 words.
For once think yourself in his position..as an average Indian, he simply thinks once a girl is speaking to him nicely, has slept with him, she must like him. Just think about the amount of humiliation...in from of everyone...his colleagues, unknown people, some laughing..
If he was stalking the girl, who sleeps with a stalker ( even when drunk)!? And none including the Czech girl isn't sure about stalking.
See, Len is a white woman, even she's pissed off at the drama.
What sexual harrassment you guys are talking about? They slept together, the girl just want to commit... that's perfectly fine...but why hurt somebody who just proposed you? Just ignore or make a harmless joke of it.
I never proposed anyone in my life...so no personal experience.
But casual premarital thing...it was normal for us..very normal..what's wrong with it when you're marrying the same person after she's pregnant/ kid is born!??
Common man, they are on tigh resources. cut some slack to the guy :angelic:
Tight!!?? It's unimaginable..we get thousands of applications from doctors, but 99 percent are both physically and mentally unfit...it's not AC room chamber practice...it's a battlefield!!
 
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red dragon

Justiceforall
Veteran
Both are victims of other's idiocy...looks like you are one of those typical HR guy.
Have you ever been called nigger in a white restaurant? That too in your first trip out of country?
BTW, my wife, is also feeling the same way.
Please try to understand, it's not easy to manage so many professionals in real life.
They are not residents, rather the best doctors in their classes from great institutes. Every word has to be chosen carefully. Sure, we do have a the authority to fire them right away. But we didn't go to business schools, we don't understand corporate politics. We are just two people in the same profession as these people.
Sure we're pissed, but we would try our best not to destroy 2 bright carriers over something like this.
That's the difference between a skilled professional and a semi skilled semi professional manager, who just work for pay cheques.
If you think it's easy..teach me please. If it's the media team trainees, I would throw them out both on the spot. They are disposable, I would be interviewing hundreds tomorrow and can take anyone ( someone with half a brain can do those jobs)
And explained me this...who on earth take nude photos with a stalker?
 
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letmein

Well-Known Member
Adept
Wow, what an adult way to handle a conversation. And good job on dropping the N word as well.
 

calvin1719

Well-Known Member
Disciple
Whatever you might call it, posting those images is completely unacceptable toxic behaviour. if you as a supervisor overlook it because the person is skilled, you're perpetuating putting professional skill over ethics and professionalism.

If you fire the person, it's not you destroying his career. His actions did that, you're just the vehicle of the consequences.

No matter if it was off work hours, even if it wasn't with a colleague that behaviour shouldn't stand.

Also, do you have any evidence of the woman having used racist or derogatory language? Consider that before deciding on your action.
 

princeoo7

On a Journey called Life :P
Veteran
No sir, I'm not. I'm still trying to assess the situation properly.
I need both of them for the work. You seemed to forget they are both adult and had consensual sex.
Of course the guy did a nasty thing, but the girl also crossed a line...
And listen bud,
I'm eligible enough to practice wherever I want to.
I'm here to help them finish their training, not to interfere with their personal affairs unless it's disrupting the work.
I was going too soft with them.. Christmas and all. From tomorrow I will just bury them with work, they won't be able to stand straight after the assignments..both will break and come out with the truth, apologize to one another and move on.
I will make the guy work so hard, he will understand his true worth.
They have no clues to what kind of work ethics I follow.
I just don't understand this obsession with white skin among Indian men...I'm married to one...they hate those dreaded empty 3 words.
For once think yourself in his position..as an average Indian, he simply thinks once a girl is speaking to him nicely, has slept with him, she must like him. Just think about the amount of humiliation...in from of everyone...his colleagues, unknown people, some laughing..
If he was stalking the girl, who sleeps with a stalker ( even when drunk)!? And none including the Czech girl isn't sure about stalking.
See, Len is a white woman, even she's pissed off at the drama.
What sexual harrassment you guys are talking about? They slept together, the girl just want to commit... that's perfectly fine...but why hurt somebody who just proposed you? Just ignore or make a harmless joke of it.
I never proposed anyone in my life...so no personal experience.
But casual premarital thing...it was normal for us..very normal..what's wrong with it when you're marrying the same person after she's pregnant/ kid is born!??

Tight!!?? It's unimaginable..we get thousands of applications from doctors, but 99 percent are both physically and mentally unfit...it's not AC room chamber practice...it's a battlefield!!
Well Thats what I meant when I said that you are on tight resources as not anyone will get the job done.
And explained me this...who on earth take nude photos with a stalker?
Kinda makes me wonder. WHAT a lucky chap :hilarious: Normally he would have got his butt kicked in jail. but as you have seen the photo and here we all are trying to imagine the things, may be the girl just wanted to have fun, boy got serious, then propose, girl rejects as she was not looking for commitment. boy got furious, leaked private moments for revenge. I would still suggest to see if a mark on their career effects them so pursue them for it and get the matter settled. if girl insist on a justice, just let them get it done with that than. As I can understand that as Higher authority, you will be questioned, just press the point that what was not known to you cannot be handled by you, example COVID. When you got to know, you took action as responsible people and this keeps your position and image clean. Rest RAM bharose
:angelic:
 
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y2s

Well-Known Member
Disciple
This sounds like a classic case of bad intercultural communication.
  1. Girl was wrong to use expletives in public. Would be good to know the context of this more from the witnesses. Maybe the guy was really annoying her.
  2. Guy was wrong to propose as the relationship sounds very casual. (Maybe justified in an Indian context, but as someone who is a doctor in a foreign country, he should have known better)
  3. Guy was 1000% wrong to post objectionable pictures on the WhatsApp group. No matter what the circumstances were. This is absolutely unacceptable and akin to revengeporn.
As others may have pointed out, The only tangible evidence in this case are the WhatsApp messages. The girl will have an airtight case against this guy if she were to make a big deal out of this. If you try to push this under the rug, it may come back to bite you hard. Therefore I recommend you address the issue in writing.

I understand you need both of them for your work. In this case you need to just document & issue warnings to both parties. Give it to them straight and give them the opportunity to approach the police or file a formal complaint with you (UN) if that's what either one of them wants. Chances are they will not want that. In this case make them sign another document that basically indemnifies both.

If they do decide to go the police route, then I think you should let it play out.

While not ideal, it should absolve you of any responsibility in the matter going forward.

Based on the info you have provided, I definitely believe the guy is more at fault here. But we may be missing pertinent information.

Additionally as you mentioned, you are just the trainer and have no interest/responsibility in the personal lives of your trainees. The guy has brought his personal life into professional domain by posting objectionable content on a company WhatsApp group. The guy is battling with his ego and trying to soil the woman's reputation all because he could not face rejection. If it was me, this guy would definitely be out. Today he's doing it to this girl, tomorrow he will do it to you.
 
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princeoo7

On a Journey called Life :P
Veteran
This sounds like a classic case of bad intercultural communication.
  1. Girl was wrong to use expletives in public. Would be good to know the context of this more from the witnesses. Maybe the guy was really annoying her.
  2. Guy was wrong to propose as the relationship sounds very casual. (Maybe justified in an Indian context, but as someone who is a doctor in a foreign country, he should have known better)
  3. Guy was 1000% wrong to post objectionable pictures on the WhatsApp group. No matter what the circumstances were.
As others may have pointed out, The only tangible evidence in this case are the WhatsApp messages. The girl will have an airtight case against this guy if she were to make a big deal out of this. If you try to push this under the rug, it may come back to bite you hard. Therefore I recommend you address the issue in writing.

I understand you need both of them for your work. In this case you need to just document & issue warnings to both parties. Give it to them straight and give them the opportunity to approach the police or file a formal complaint with you (UN) if that's what either one of them wants. Chances are they will not want that. In this case make them sign another document that basically indemnifies both.

If they do decide to go the police route, then I think you should let it play out.

While not ideal, it should absolve you of any responsibility in the matter going forward.

Based on the info you have provided, I definitely believe the guy is more at fault here. But we may be missing pertinent information.
You are good with words :angelic:
 
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