Audio Whole Home Multi Zone Airplay Audio

[y2s]

Hello,

I would appreciate some advise on upgrading my 20 year old whole home audio setup. Currently have 4 pairs of B&W ccm616 (http://bwgroupsupport.com/downloads/specsheets/bw/CCM616 InfoSheet.pdf) in ceiling speakers wired to a speaker selector and then a Yamaha 100W stereo amp. This used to be connected to a cd player and I have now also added an airport express for airplay audio.

Now my Amp has been acting up for many years and I fear it is finally dead for good. I have decided to update my setup since I will have to anyways buy new equipment.

I ideally want 4 distinct airplay 2 zones as I unfortunately am trapped in the apple ecosystem and it will add a lot of convenience in my use case. Options I have found so far after quite some research -

• Vessel Audio - VSS Series - These cost 2 Lakhs + and are absolutely out of budget
• 4 * Sons Amp - Again Ideal, But way out of budget.
• Multi Zone Amp Connected to 4 airport express - Problem here is I can't find any multi zone amps in India. There are some from Dayton Audio/Monoprice online at around $500. Would love some recommendations in India.
• Class D Chinese Boards/Devices based on TDA7498/TPA3110 connected to airport expresses. These board can be had for around $10 each. I could build a custom enclosure with 4 boards/ 4 airports and power supply all for less than 10k probably.

The last option seems appealing to me but I'm not really sure as to the safety & quality of such devices. I'm quite the audio n00b and would appreciate advice from members on how I should go about doing this.

 

[y2s]

So just an update on this for anyone that may be interested -

I have decided the best and most fun course of action here is DIY. The Idea is to get a good quality Class D AMP (Something with TPA3118 or TPA3255) - Paired with a good Power Supply.

Plan to get a buck convertor and run the airport express off the same power supply using something like an AMS1117. Will put everything into a nice cabinet.

This can be built for around 10-15k in total and think it will serve my purposes. I plan to build only one and run everything off one zone at least for now -

As and when I need more zones I can just build another unit along these lines. Will also allow me to iterate on the design over time.

As I will keep this on 24/7, I'm still somewhat unsure on hissing and popping on these class D amps that I have been reading about.

The more I'm learning, I feel like this could be an Interesting consumer product to build in India. Maybe get Mfi certification from Apple and build an Airplay 2 50W Class D Amp for under 10K - Sonos Killer Potential.

The only company I've found that even makes class D anything in India is Allo. Their products are pretty well reputed but are all DIY. There might be an opportunity here.

Thanks to @Ryunosuke who has been giving some good advise to me over PM. Posting some of it below so it may help others.

If you can get it from Aliexpress then TPA3255 is a very good one. Even the ruddy implementation by "Chinese Engineers" have done little to mar it's audio quality. No hiss, no buzz, just good clean output. If implemented with better components and circuitry and clean power supply, it can rival mid-range audiophile gear.

Power delivery of this amp and many class D like it depend upon 2 things, the power input and the over current protection implemented on the circuit. If it's closer to amp's own threshold levels then it can deliver a lot of power easily. I didn't measure the actual power output as I didn't have proper equipment at the time.
I have put load of 50W each on L-R channel and 2x 300W on Sub channel. Powered by a Meanwell 650W PSU (48Vx12A). The Amp handled it well upto semi-high volume level, without distortion and went into protect mode only on Bass channel when really demanding lows came.
On a single sub, it never had any problem. When fed signal through a good DAC-Preamp, it sounds even better. Keep in mind that all this on a generic Chinese board with poor quality control and no speaker protection circuit.

Basically, it's same as concept of GIGO in computing. Give it good signal and power and you will get good output.
Look at threads below to have wider idea and opinion about TPA3255.

@red dragon Would love you to weigh in on this -

 

[LaatSahab]

The 3255 seems hard to procure with the ali ban and in mood to pay crazy customs duty etc if imported from US. I've found that a lot of people are praising the allo volt amp which is based on 3118d2 and I am considering it. Do you have any advise for the same? What do you think of these Chinese lepy/lepai & SMSL?

Import situation is abysmal right now. You can try your luck with HiFiGo, they do provide the option of "creative billing" to minimise brunt of custom duties. But if applied then rate of 20%+18% and clearance charges could increase landing cost by almost 50%. Thus getting your hands on nominally priced SMSL amps is going to be bit tough. I'm using SMSL AD18 with my TV but I got it last year from Aliexpress itself. Lepy/Lepai is something I suggest you totally skip for your usage scenario. As for Allo Volt, see the thread here.
I don't have any experience with Multi-room audio so cannot comment much on it barring the audio aspect. For an AIO solution for your need, I would suggest you to look into Arylic's offerings. You can find them here.
And YouTube "reviews" for them includes Audioholics, Andrew Robinson(ex-Emotiva engineer) to name few.
Going the DIY route, you still have options when it comes to selecting amp boards. Besides TPA3255, you can also look into TASS5630( hisses and hums can be reduced by swapping filter capacitors) for stupendous power. TDA7498 is a good, clean amp but power output isn't that much. AFAIR, Topping MX3 uses this as speaker amp. You cannot go wrong with TPA311x series as you'll have more community support for it. You can search Amazon for the above amp boards. They are there, but overpriced.
If you want a good, solid amplifier, solid state ones still have a leg up over class D when it comes to SQ. Indian manufacturers such as Norge, INDIQaudio have some good offerings at competitive prices. Norge even entertains customization request so if you decide to, lets say, use Arylic Upstream unit and Norge amp and ask Norge people to make requisite holes and cuts into the the amp chasis itself and a12V line for it, they'll be more than happy to oblige. But as with everything, this would cost you. How much, I have no idea.

 

[red dragon]

Sorry mate, I have ZERO knowledge of such huge multitoom set-ups.
Moreover I don't know much about these newer switching amplifiers ( I'm completely limited to A, AB and C amps).
Even struggled to set up a Dali 7.1 home theatre system!!

 

[superczar]

I have setup a rather convoluted mix of 9 zoned setups
A few of them are Airplay only , Spotify only and a few are enabled for both.

While both Spotify and AM work equally well, I feel the time to connect for Spotify to any Spotify streaming enabled device is a little faster/ more reliable than airplay to airport express

If you must stick to AM - and are willing to take a slight hit on SQ - The easiest solution would be a combination of HomePods and HomePod minis.

To put it in perspective, Four of the zones use class D boards + bookshelf speakers - And while they do sound somewhat better than HP , they also cost more
Two zones use full range AVRs and mid-end floor standers - and while they do sound distinctly better than HP, they also cost way more than the HPs
The rest are Homepods (2 big, 1 mini)

I have sunk enough time and money in this over many years to say this comfortably - If you are not very crazy about SQ - just buy a bunch of HPs and call it a day!

 

[red dragon]

That's what most of my friends with large houses did.

 

[y2s]

Now I'm even more confused on what I should do. Turns out my Amp is fine. The spike guard it was connected to was the issue. I can just attach an airport to my existing Amp and call it a day.

As I would want to automate the AMP, will have to figure out how to automate standby on/off based on music input detection. Class A/B amps consume quite a bit of power if left turned on! One can automate the standby switch on the AMP using an Arduino and a relay. But how I would detect sound output from the airport to trigger this switch is something I have yet to find a clear answer on. There are some Digital Audio to 12V Triggers that I can use, but again are unavailable in our fine country and too expensive for the DIY goal of this project.

However, as I am in too deep - I am going to get a class D board and do that too!

Man, getting into audiophile stuff is both a money and time pit. I also want to try a tube amp as I don't believe I've ever heard one before.

I have setup a rather convoluted mix of 9 zoned setups
A few of them are Airplay only , Spotify only and a few are enabled for both.

While both Spotify and AM work equally well, I feel the time to connect for Spotify to any Spotify streaming enabled device is a little faster/ more reliable than airplay to airport express

If you must stick to AM - and are willing to take a slight hit on SQ - The easiest solution would be a combination of HomePods and HomePod minis.

To put it in perspective, Four of the zones use class D boards + bookshelf speakers - And while they do sound somewhat better than HP , they also cost more
Two zones use full range AVRs and mid-end floor standers - and while they do sound distinctly better than HP, they also cost way more than the HPs
The rest are Homepods (2 big, 1 mini)

I have sunk enough time and money in this over many years to say this comfortably - If you are not very crazy about SQ - just buy a bunch of HPs and call it a day!

I do currently use Apple Music but want to have a setup that's platform agnostic in the future. I am purposefully staying away from Homepods. My current setup has served me for 20 years without any upgrades/modifications or Issues. The homepods I am sure will be obsolete with a software update a few years down the line. I already have all my speakers so just need to figure out the zones and corresponding amps if I decide to do this multi zone thing. Would be great if you can share details of what class D boards you are using and your opinions on them. Also, what are you using for your spotify zones? Pi's I would assume? (I'm looking into volumio/shairpoint-sync too)

P.S. OT - Back in the day when I was just a lurker on the forum and did not post much. - One of your Home Automation Threads about Domoticz & mySensors got me into HA. That was honestly the trigger for me. SO thank you very much for sharing! and Inspiring!

 

[superczar]

Now I'm even more confused on what I should do. Turns out my Amp is fine. The spike guard it was connected to was the issue. I can just attach an airport to my existing Amp and call it a day.

As I would want to automate the AMP, will have to figure out how to automate standby on/off based on music input detection. Class A/B amps consume quite a bit of power if left turned on! One can automate the standby switch on the AMP using an Arduino and a relay. But how I would detect sound output from the airport to trigger this switch is something I have yet to find a clear answer on. There are some Digital Audio to 12V Triggers that I can use, but again are unavailable in our fine country and too expensive for the DIY goal of this project.

However, as I am in too deep - I am going to get a class D board and do that too!

Man, getting into audiophile stuff is both a money and time pit. I also want to try a tube amp as I don't believe I've ever heard one before.



I do currently use Apple Music but want to have a setup that's platform agnostic in the future. I am purposefully staying away from Homepods. My current setup has served me for 20 years without any upgrades/modifications or Issues. The homepods I am sure will be obsolete with a software update a few years down the line. I already have all my speakers so just need to figure out the zones and corresponding amps if I decide to do this multi zone thing. Would be great if you can share details of what class D boards you are using and your opinions on them. Also, what are you using for your spotify zones? Pi's I would assume? (I'm looking into volumio/shairpoint-sync too)

P.S. OT - Back in the day when I was just a lurker on the forum and did not post much. - One of your Home Automation Threads about Domoticz & mySensors got me into HA. That was honestly the trigger for me. SO thank you very much for sharing! and Inspiring!

Glad to hear that it triggered this hobby. That HA setup has undergone a fair amount of growth- it is now close to 80 or maybe even more nodes on it...
The github code also has a reasonably detailed writeup including the bits & bobs about the audio setup - You can check that here
GitHub - superczar/home-assistant: Configuration and setup details for Home-assistant

The class D boards I am using are
1) TPA3116D2
2) A SMSL pre-built amp based on TDA-7498 (I thikn its called SA-98)
3) A bit more beefy TAS5630 board
4) The last one is the odd one out as it is a class D device but at AB price - Paradigm PW Amp - Reason for being a bit expensive is a) It's Paradigm and b) It has ARC built in (Anthem Room Correction).

The right choice of class D board would be a function of the speakers you want to attach

Regarding your power consumption issue, it is relatively trivial to build a 12V trigger - the trigger activation bit is either impossible or very simple based on whether you have a HA hub in your house e.g. in my case, a GUI build automation can take the airplay device play/stop as an input to trigger a switch
Having said that, I use this only for a AB class Marantz Amp and a much beefier Class D crown XLS amp - and not for the D boards as it is just not worth the hassle for class D and the little power they suck at idle
Personally, I don't see a noticeable difference between class D and AB but I am not an audio snob- class D is the way to go for most regular folks IMO

On the last part about being platform agnostic - unfortunately that is the most difficult part.
I would have liked all my zones to be compatible with Airplay, Spotify and android but intercompatibility issues make it cost prohibitve if not impossible
I use a few airport expresses + I have a couple of these paradigm devices that support spotify (and so do the AVRs) + i have a couple of Klipsch streamers that again works as a spotify sink

The above is the reason why I suggested homepod- As long as you are reasonably sure that you will stick with iphones/ipads for the foreseeable future, they are the most cost effective way to get not just Apple Music (native support) but also youtube/spotify/ Prime music/whatever via airplay
In theory, you could achieve the same with airport express and class D amps + speakers - but the homepods are a cheaper/more elegant solution + it may not be easy to source airport express any more

 

[Nalin]

I am thinking of setting up dual HomePods as a Stereo pair for my room for the same reason. Earlier was thinking to get a decent pair of bookshelves like Q Acoustics 3020i and use it with a class D amp. There are many budget streamers out there that can make this conventional setup wireless but again will make the room ugly and will not have a convenience of Airplay.

 

[rdst_1]

My question might be a little OT for this thread, so feel free to ignore it.
If you guys like to spend some considerable amount of money on the hardware, why do you compromise on the quality of the source by using streaming services instead of local lossless database.
I don't own any good speakers or the likes and even in case of HPs, I own just a single pair of HD650s. Is your hardware very forgiving for lower quality source material unlike my HPs? HD650s themselves aren't very detailed or resolving compared to some other HPs out there and yet I can clearly distinguish between 256/320kbps music and lossless.

 

[superczar]

My question might be a little OT for this thread, so feel free to ignore it.
If you guys like to spend some considerable amount of money on the hardware, why do you compromise on the quality of the source by using streaming services instead of local lossless database.
I don't own any good speakers or the likes and even in case of HPs, I own just a single pair of HD650s. Is your hardware very forgiving for lower quality source material unlike my HPs? HD650s themselves aren't very detailed or resolving compared to some other HPs out there and yet I can clearly distinguish between 256/320kbps music and lossless.

because 10% loss of fidelity - that too if I sit in a sweet spot vs 500% improvement in usability/ convenience?

FWIW, my main audio setup is fairly high res ( Focal Aria floorstanders + Integrated Amp)

I tried tidal lossless also for some time but the usability quotient of Apple Music and Spotify is a much bigger draw for me..
Better to hear a lot of good sounding music vs a limited set of great sounding music if you know what I’m saying

 

[Nalin]

Honestly lossless/local files doesn't work if one is constantly into finding new music or artists.

I can find the sound quality difference only if I listen carefully with full attention. Mostly this isn't the case.

 

[madhukannan]

A very easy and ecnomical way to multyroom audio is DIY using Arlyic up2stream amps or Amp modules. If you have amps you can use modules with out intagrated amp . These are available on diyaudiocart and costs around 5k for with amp modules and 3 to 4 k for without amp . everything can be configured with their app andsupports spotify tidal amazon music ect .local music can be played with dlna and airplay .

 

[rdst_1]

The only speakers I have are basic Edifier C3 and they are connected to an Echo Dot, but only used for background music. Whenever I sit down to really listen to music, I get out my headphones. Maybe using headphones is a much more isolating experience, so I am unable to use more lossy stuff with them.

 

[Nalin]

4) The last one is the odd one out as it is a class D device but at AB price - Paradigm PW Amp - Reason for being a bit expensive is a) It's Paradigm and b) It has ARC built in (Anthem Room Correction).

Looks like a nice all in one solution, don't you think it's better to get separate amp + network streamer as we can update both of them separately?

The other good all in one option I found is bluesound powernode 2i, but problem with these systems are that they can get outdated quite fast.

 

[superczar]

Looks like a nice all in one solution, don't you think it's better to get separate amp + network streamer as we can update both of them separately?

The other good all in one option I found is bluesound powernode 2i, but problem with these systems are that they can get outdated quite fast.

It is usually preferable to have a separate set.
However, this one is for my bedroom where a small unobtrusive AIO makes more sense.
My main reason to get the Paradigm was ARC (Anthem room correction) and not the streaming capabilities though...

I have a Paradigm PW Link as well- which has pre-outs
It was available on amazon at one point for 21-22K
Both are pretty good devices but again, the primary draw was ARC than anything else..

I do wish cheaper streaming sinks like the airport express were still available.
If you like separates (I sure do), nothing still beats the AE as a streaming solution - I had 3 with ages between 7-15(!!) years although one recently gave up the ghost due to a power spike..

 

[Nalin]

It is usually preferable to have a separate set.
However, this one is for my bedroom where a small unobtrusive AIO makes more sense.
My main reason to get the Paradigm was ARC (Anthem room correction) and not the streaming capabilities though...

I have a Paradigm PW Link as well- which has pre-outs
It was available on amazon at one point for 21-22K
Both are pretty good devices but again, the primary draw was ARC than anything else..

I do wish cheaper streaming sinks like the airport express were still available.
If you like separates (I sure do), nothing still beats the AE as a streaming solution - I had 3 with ages between 7-15(!!) years although one recently gave up the ghost due to a power spike..

I am still undecided on what would suit me better, a conventional stereo setup or the HomePod route.

Regarding separates, people are advising on staying with Vintage Amps. Those that are not following the latest trends of technology and just add a network streamer to it. I think you like Norge, I think somewhere along those lines or a class D Amp would also be okay if I go for that route.

 

[superczar]

I am still undecided on what would suit me better, a conventional stereo setup or the HomePod route.

Regarding separates, people are advising on staying with Vintage Amps. Those that are not following the latest trends of technology and just add a network streamer to it. I think you like Norge, I think somewhere along those lines or a class D Amp would also be okay if I go for that route.

Again, depends on what you are expecting from the setup.
If it is mostly for background music piping or casual playback while you go about your day, choose 1 of
a) HomePod for cost , convenience and very decent SQ
b) Bookshelves with a class D board and a cheap streamer like AE for improved SQ but much better soundstage - Be prepared to shell out at least 30K+ on the bookshelves as option A) would be better than the cheaper ones

The only place I continue to retain a discrete AB Amp is with my Living room speakers - but they do deserve it (Focal Aria 926)
Having said that, if someone were to sneak in and replace that Integrated AB with a decent class D , I don't think I will ever notice

On a side note, at moderate listening volumes , the quality of the speakers is what truly makes a difference.
Honestly speaking, there is very little to differentiate between the output of an AVR vs an Integrated (Vintage or otherwise) unless you are out hunting for differences with a magnifying glass
Even class D boards (except the really cheap ones) sound as good - barring a tendency to have a slight hiss (which is discernible only if you keep your ears close to the tweeter)

 

[y2s]

Ended up ordering the Allo Volt 3116D2 based amp for 4K - only one that will get here fast and cheap at the moment.

Also fixed 2 of my dead airports today. One required a fresh power supply and the other just needed a thorough cleaning.

@superczar feel free to send me your dead airport. I am quite confident I can fix it for you.

 

[y2s]

Finally got one zone online. I did final installation on the allo board. Quite satisfied. This combo of class D + airport express is highly recommended by me. All in you can get Airplay 2 ( or any streaming service really) zones for under INR 5000 -

Extra: Built a mini speaker using pam8403 I had lying around too-