Air India Ahmedabad-London flight Boeing 787-8 Dreamliner crashes near airport in Ahmedabad

altair21 said:
everyone does lol, its not like a car AC which you turn on, when you are at altitude, you need to figure out ways to warm the air instead of cooling it, on ground there are ground units which manually run the AC for Aircrafts in the terminal,
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vs your own comment:
altair21 said:
AC not working is simply because airlines dont want to spend more on fuel while on ground, jet engines guzzle fuel like crazy, its just a cost cutting measure and nothing else,
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Have traveled within India for years sometimes for every 15days or so, internationally every few months.
Cutting down a/c is generally see within Indian airlines or those with very crappy standards.

People getting roiled in heat and humidity inside a closed metal tube for long time, don't think international standards propose that kind of conditions. It is shown for this very flight, flight got delayed due to other indications before take-off, etc. are just bread-crumbs leading to issues over issues. Didn't mean a/c down alone is the cause, it can be a minor indicator is some cases, only wanted to say this.

A/c not working is just a minor indication which can coincide with many other issues if lackadaisical attitude is kept in general maintenance. We don't know anything now, will have to wait for final studies on this, btw.
 
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TEUser2K1 said:
vs your own comment:
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do read up on how AC works in a plane, you'll have your answer
TEUser2K1 said:
Have traveled within India for years sometimes for every 15days or so, internationally every few months.
Cutting down a/c is generally see within Indian airlines or those with very crappy standards.

People getting roiled in heat and humidity inside a closed metal tube for long time, don't think international standards propose that kind of conditions. It is shown for this very flight, flight got delayed due to other indications before take-off, etc. are just bread-crumbs leading to issues over issues. Didn't mean a/c down alone is the cause, it can be a minor indicator is some cases, only wanted to say this.
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you clearly havent had the misfortune of traveling on RyanAir or United ;) and why compare airlines based in colder climates instead of airlines in hot tropics like ours?
TEUser2K1 said:
A/c not working is just a minor indication which can coincide with many other issues if lackadaisical attitude is kept in general maintenance. We don't know anything now, will have to wait for final studies on this, btw.
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you do you ; )

P.S. if you think airlines cheaping out and doing cost cutting measures is enough to get them barred on international airports, then I got a couple of things to tell you but you might be better served if you actually looked up said standards yourself and reasons why airlines have been banned in international airports in the past
 
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altair21 said:
you clearly havent had the misfortune of traveling on RyanAir or United ;) and why compare airlines based in colder climates instead of airlines in hot tropics like ours?
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Those flight service companies are not known for their great reputation.
People understands air conditioning involves both heating and cooling together with air pressure, hygiene, etc.

Section "Aircraft: The hidden risks of Malfunctioning HAC systems" in link below give some hints on what I want to convey:
hvactechnocrat.com

Aircraft: The Hidden Risks of Malfunctioning HVAC Systems - HVAC Technocrats

Aircraft air conditioning failures can cause discomfort and health risks. Learn about the hidden impacts and how to address them effectively.
hvactechnocrat.com hvactechnocrat.com
Issues with a/c may probably indicate other systematic issues.
 
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codwapeace said:
Why would that cause double engine failure as is being reported/speculated
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The reason for the crash is loss of lift. It can either be due to power loss or the aerodynamic surfaces being not configured properly.

There are theories and speculations on either side. The videos circulating are of low resolution, so makes it impossible to either make out the slats/flaps or the RAT deployment.

Unlike the Jeju Air incident there are no visible signs of compressor stall, hence many are gravitating towards the incorrect configuration.
 
t3chg33k said:
The reason for the crash is loss of lift. It can either be due to power loss or the aerodynamic surfaces being not configured properly.

There are theories and speculations on either side. The videos circulating are of low resolution, so makes it impossible to either make out the slats/flaps or the RAT deployment.

Unlike the Jeju Air incident there are no visible signs of compressor stall, hence many are gravitating towards the incorrect configuration.
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which was further exacerbated by the fact that the airplane was near capacity and the runway was short, the plane had to be pushed back to the start of the runway and if you watch the video, positive climb rate wasn't achieved and the plane barely got airborne.

I think the plane was barely at V1 when it reached the end of the runway
 
altair21 said:
which was further exacerbated by the fact that the airplane was near capacity and the runway was short, the plane had to be pushed back to the start of the runway and if you watch the video, positive climb rate wasn't achieved and the plane barely got airborne.

I think the plane was barely at V1 when it reached the end of the runway
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I think it was explained that in Ahmedabad the taxiway doesn’t extend to the end, so planes have to backtrack. The 737 class of planes can usually take off without backtracking within the 1.8km available but heavies need the full 3.6km.

The plane did achieve positive climb which is immediately after takeoff. Experienced 787 pilots have mentioned that they retract the gear immediately to reduce the drag which is all the more required for such a heavy plane and especially if the air speed is low, so it doesn’t add up.
 
t3chg33k said:
The one on takeoff configuration is very unlikely. But the most prevalent theory is that the pilot not flying initially retracted the flaps instead of the landing gear as procedure would dictate the landing gear being stowed after positive rate of climb which this plane did have at takeoff.

Will know soon enough when the preliminary report is out.
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don't think, plane didn't have a positive rate, no pilot would retract the landing gear in case they have to make an emergency landing, there's an incident that's very similar to here where I think a 747? was not able to sustain a positive rate and barely cleared the city and the mountain near it, can't remember the name of thst flight
t3chg33k said:
The plane did achieve positive climb which is immediately after takeoff. Experienced 787 pilots have mentioned that they retract the gear immediately to reduce the drag which is all the more required for such a heavy plane and especially if the air speed is low, so it doesn’t add up.
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look at the video, the plane barely climbed to even 600ft, no pilot would decide it's a positive climb rate, but I haven't seen any 787 pilots weighing in about the landing gear on reddit, but let's see what comes up
 
altair21 said:
don't think, plane didn't have a positive rate, no pilot would retract the landing gear in case they have to make an emergency landing, there's an incident that's very similar to here where I think a 747? was not able to sustain a positive rate and barely cleared the city and the mountain near it, can't remember the name of thst flight
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Positive rate callout is done within seconds and well before 600 feet, so would have been done in this case.
altair21 said:
don't think, plane didn't have a positive rate, no pilot would retract the landing gear in case they have to make an emergency landing, there's an incident that's very similar to here where I think a 747? was not able to sustain a positive rate and barely cleared the city and the mountain near it, can't remember the name of thst flight

look at the video, the plane barely climbed to even 600ft, no pilot would decide it's a positive climb rate, but I haven't seen any 787 pilots weighing in about the landing gear on reddit, but let's see what comes up
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You have several pilot channels on YouTube and all agree that the initial lift was enough for a positive climb call-out and gear retraction would be the first thing you do for lift, especially if you know the terrain.
 
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PunkX 75 said:
This may be considered India's worst aviation tragedy. Charkhi Dadri, while devastating, did not involve Indian carriers.


From what I have gathered, three likely causes may have led to the tragedy:

  1. Pilot error in flap/rudder adjustment
  2. Maintenance issues on Air India's part
  3. Boeing messed up the 787's long-term structural integrity by aligning mismatched hull gaps through force, as per whistleblowers
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You forgot the ATC problem. It's now obvious that our ATC staff (at least not everyone) aren't well equipped to handle slight negative change.
Let me share my own experience with Air India flight over a decade ago which is also my last journey on that airlines. Sometime in 2010-2011 I was heading to Delhi in the middle of summer heat May, the AC didn't work for a good 30-40 mins till we made a stop at one airport along the way where we picked up more passengers. There we were also delayed for sometime citing "technical difficulties." We were fanning for our dear lives with newspapers the whole time. That was the last time I've ever used Air India. Govt office goers still commute on this airline only because of the travel reimbursement, not because the airline is actually good.

Now I'm not saying other airlines are perfect. It just seems to me that Air India management in general don't seem to care about it at all. In this latest incident, it's being reported that this specific plane was due for an examination in 2024. Keeping the rest of the theories aside, why this delay is something even TATA company will never be able to justify.
 
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"I did not witness any issues when the flight took off. I felt something was unusual with the plane's flaps outside. Experts will be able to decode this better. The ACs were not working properly when the flight was on the ground before taking off," he said.
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Source
 
yugaaa said:
So Sabotage seems to be the first thing that comes up on my mind . Someone wanted something (s) or some passenger (s) gone is what comes to me .
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Highly unlikely, and already ruled out.

A good watch:



One more speculation on the pilot error theory:

  1. During positive lift, one engine (likely the left) may have failed
  2. The pilot, in an attempt to cut fuel supply to the affected engine, accidentally turned off the right engine

Disclaimer: SPECULATION
 
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Deeply saddened by the tragic flight crash. My thoughts and prayers are with the victims, their families, and everyone affected by this heartbreaking incident. May the departed souls rest in peace.
 
The idea that it could be fuel contamination is very interesting. Also his lending gear analysis is also very interestinginteresting, that could rule out any pilot error.
 
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