Air India Ahmedabad-London flight Boeing 787-8 Dreamliner crashes near airport in Ahmedabad

[Heisen]

Engineering is challenging, and the reliability of a product also hinges on how many edge cases are considered during its design.

Upon more reading I stumbled upon this, Pilots are rarely trained to handle a sudden dual engine failure immediately after takeoff and the reason for this because it's extra-ordinarily rare. And it remain among the most dangerous and least trainable scenarios.

 

[DigitalDude]

Engineering is challenging, and the reliability of a product also hinges on how many edge cases are considered during its design.

Upon more reading I stumbled upon this, Pilots are rarely trained to handle a sudden dual engine failure immediately after takeoff and the reason for this because it's extra-ordinarily rare. And it remain among the most dangerous and least trainable scenarios.

it is because, basically nothing can be done in that case.

esp. here - total electrical failure, total hydraulic failure, so 0 thrust from both engines, basic backup power by the RAT. but by the time RAT becomes useful they had like 10 to 30 seconds to crash. could not even complete the landing gear retraction, point the nose slightly down and get some more time in the air.... extremely freaky situation.

 

[altair21]

Upon more reading I stumbled upon this, Pilots are rarely trained to handle a sudden dual engine failure immediately after takeoff and the reason for this because it's extra-ordinarily rare. And it remain among the most dangerous and least trainable scenarios.

because nothing can be done at that point, at max if you are lucky to be near sea or have an open field in front of you, you can attempt an ocean ditching or an emergency landing, and even then there are millions of factors to consider, I dont think there has ever been an incident of takeoff, dual engine failure where everyone, or even a majority have survived, planes can do a single engine takeoff, but when both engines die? specially at just 600ft? its destined to crash

 

[burntwingzZz]

at this point it is more or less confirmed RAT was deployed , loss of power .Now the investigation goes in following direction .when the engines were put in max for takeoff than was it actually generating enough power . is there a check or possibility whether pilot could identify the same , because from the second cctv footage it seemed the plane used entire length of the runway to generate the V1 state .

post that the case would go to negligence in maintenance / fuel quality / possible sabotage . the flap theory was stupid as the levers /button of both are in different location.

And the first video which was out on news channel from the house terrace would be the most critical proof. they have the og video which has the sound signature of the aircraft .The women native to the house has on camera said no sound was heard (what this means ,she is used to the sounds of both the engines at full speed. maybe the rat was still not deployed , or the rat was deployed but the sound signature didnt match. )

 

[Heisen]

RAT deployment is automatic or manual?

 

[FXGalvatron]

RAT deployment is automatic or manual?

In the event of a complete loss of primary power, the RAT is designed to automatically deploy, providing emergency power. However, it can also be deployed manually by the flight crew in certain situations

 

[burntwingzZz]

RAT deployment is automatic or manual?

as soon as it detects electrical/ hydraulic or dual engine failure it automatically gets deployed . the lone survivor also commented that he heard a bang , than he also mentioned that engine was raced (basically he heard loud noise ,but that more or less was the noise of the rat propeller) and said lights blinked white to green .

now the case is when did the engines underperformed (was it evident before v1 position) and what led to the engine failure. if it comes out before v1 position than the credibility of all the indian pilots will be shredded globally and i pray this is not true.

i say this because a uk based channel wherein a lanky old ex 777 old pilot directly jumped to the conclusion of pilot error.This would force our airlines to maybe hire international pilots .Understand that india has placed around 1000 odd planes order so we need indian pilots and not the foreigners.

 

[altair21]

i say this because a uk based channel wherein a lanky old ex 777 old pilot directly jumped to the conclusion of pilot error.This would force our airlines to maybe hire international pilots .Understand that india has placed around 1000 odd planes order so we need indian pilots and not the foreigners.

lol nobody is going to hire foreigners, even if its pilot error, you havent seen the number of ****ups murican/european pilots have done which have lead to casualties, look up the Germanwings crash where the FO (or was it the captain?) essentially committed suicide taking with them all the pax on board.

every line of Airplane regulation has been written with blood, and if we started blaming pilots for them or punishing them for crashes, then no pilot would ever come forward and admit fault or try to obfuscate facts, its been a #1 etho at NTSB, to not assign blame to a pilot but rather figure out why the pilot happened to do the mistakes they did and the factors leading to it and how it can either be eliminated/reduced to a minimum in future.

Only idiots like the French jail pilots, almost no other country does this.

 

[burntwingzZz]

lol nobody is going to hire foreigners, even if its pilot error, you havent seen the number of ****ups murican/european pilots have done which have lead to casualties, look up the Germanwings crash where the FO (or was it the captain?) essentially committed suicide taking with them all the pax on board.

every line of Airplane regulation has been written with blood, and if we started blaming pilots for them or punishing them for crashes, then no pilot would ever come forward and admit fault or try to obfuscate facts, its been a #1 etho at NTSB, to not assign blame to a pilot but rather figure out why the pilot happened to do the mistakes they did and the factors leading to it and how it can either be eliminated/reduced to a minimum in future.

Only idiots like the French jail pilots, almost no other country does this.

that's what i am trying to say they will try to unsettle the end user that pilot is indian.

 

[altair21]

that's what i am trying to say they will try to unsettle the end user that pilot is indian.

anyone who knows even an iota of aviation, will never say that, unless its an airline like Pak's national airline, thats a different matter

 

[Heisen]

Okay, so this is what I read.

On the Boeing 787, there is no manual way to deploy the RAT. It is deployed automatically, designed this way to reduce the pilot’s workload so they can focus on other critical tasks in the event of a failure.

So does this mean pilot error is out of the question? What could a pilot do in the cockpit that would trigger the RAT? Before takeoff, all systems must show a green light. If there were any warnings, the pilot wouldn’t proceed.

 

[burntwingzZz]

pretty much not sure .During takeoff all engines are put in max power mode . Then there would be a predefined distance where in the plane reaches in V1 (that is take off) thats what the physics and math says that depends on total plane weight (there would be min and max distance calculated) .But if plane took more time more distance to reach into that window for take off than that shows some power issues . Next is whether if that happened pre- takeoff than did pilot have enough runway to abort takeoff ,brake and plane would not exceed runway limits and maybe breach boundary walls and be safe ? or the pilot took the risk of taking off is that will be the defining factor to check if it was a pilot error or he should have aborted the lift off .
what i am trying to say is this . if he would have aborted than was there enough space to be safe. Please note this is a different scenarion where the plane skid , landing gear was broken and it smashed into boundary wall wherein i guess there were two survivors

 

[codwapeace]

Okay, so this is what I read.

On the Boeing 787, there is no manual way to deploy the RAT. It is deployed automatically, designed this way to reduce the pilot’s workload so they can focus on other critical tasks in the event of a failure.

So does this mean pilot error is out of the question? What could a pilot do in the cockpit that would trigger the RAT? Before takeoff, all systems must show a green light. If there were any warnings, the pilot wouldn’t proceed.

Completely out of question. The engines just shut off. There is only a sound of RAT which sounds like a single engine propeller in the video from the rooftop. No one knows why it happened. It almost never happens that both engines shut off at the same time. The most likely plausibility is fuel contamination with water. It happened with a Cathay Pacific plane in 2010, but they were able to restart one of the engines.

Cathay Pacific Flight 780 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Unfortunately, it is impossible to do anything during takeoff as there is no time to do anything before the plane crashes. Moreover, plane being full of fuel at take off almost always results in a fire of epic proportions. There are less things that can go wrong during take off than landing, but a crash at takeoff is much more deadly than landing.

 

[Heisen]

.But if plane took more time more distance to reach into that window for take off than that shows some power issues . Next is whether if that happened pre- takeoff than did pilot have enough runway to abort takeoff ,brake and plane would not exceed runway limits and maybe breach boundary walls and be safe ? or the pilot took the risk of taking off is that will be the defining factor to check if it was a pilot error or he should have aborted the lift off .

This is the deepest question.

 

[burntwingzZz]

what worries me the most is how quickly it fireballed and the survivor telling of big bang sound ,what if this is sabotage + bombing.

 

[codwapeace]

pretty much not sure .During takeoff all engines are put in max power mode . Then there would be a predefined distance where in the plane reaches in V1 (that is take off) thats what the physics and math says that depends on total plane weight (there would be min and max distance calculated) .But if plane took more time more distance to reach into that window for take off than that shows some power issues . Next is whether if that happened pre- takeoff than did pilot have enough runway to abort takeoff ,brake and plane would not exceed runway limits and maybe breach boundary walls and be safe ? or the pilot took the risk of taking off is that will be the defining factor to check if it was a pilot error or he should have aborted the lift off .
what i am trying to say is this . if he would have aborted than was there enough space to be safe. Please note this is a different scenarion where the plane skid , landing gear was broken and it smashed into boundary wall wherein i guess there were two survivors

Not possible even on airports with long runways. The runway in Ahmedabad is small so even less possible. They would have crashed with the boundary wall. Beyond a certain point on the runway and speed, you can't abort the takeoff and pilots didn't see any sign of problems. They didn't say anything to the ATC during the takeoff. The CCTV video shows that there was no problems during takeoff. It seems like a completely ordinary takeoff other than the engines stopped working after a few seconds.

what worries me the most is how quickly it fireballed and the survivor telling of big bang sound ,what if this is sabotage + bombing.

No man! It almost always happens when crashes happen during takeoff as the plane is full of fuel. This plane had more than 1 lakh liters of fuel which spills out from the wings during the crash and in presence of sparks catches fire. There is no sabotage. Nothing points to a sabotage.

 

[TEUser2K1]

Heard that the flight was scheduled for maintenance by last quarter of 2024 which was ignored. This is only thing that bothers me. Are we trying hard to find excuses ?

 

[baka_otoko]

anyone who knows even an iota of aviation, will never say that, unless its an airline like Pak's national airline, thats a different matter

There was this comment I saw on yt by @medico3326:
Let’s remember before we blame pilots - they have lost their lives too and are not here to defend themselves.
Salute to them.

 

[sanjeevram]

Heard that the flight was scheduled for maintenance by last quarter of 2024 which was ignored. This is only thing that bothers me. Are we trying hard to find excuses ?

Can you please share the source, Because Everywhere its being Mentioned as it was last done in 2023 and next one was due in Dec 2025

 

[mayank4823]

Any good pilot or ex-pilot right now would refrain themselves from providing their "expert analysis" on this. They know Black Box will reveal everything and everything right now is just a speculation. You can make 100 theories (including Babar Azam did this because of jealousy) but no one knows what reality is.