Hi,
Thank you, I am doing well, Hope you are as well.
Regarding cost, the length of the cable changes the final cost. As more wire it uses the higher the cost will be. So if you can dm me your length requirement I can give you a accurate answer.
Also MSI seems to be acting cheap by withholding the pin-out diagram that they actually released Link
Hope this helps
I have a few doubts .
I was looking for additional sata cables for my PSU for a while and @b.life made these for me. Such a gem of a guy and so helpful. Helped me understand how the cables work and also shared tons of material to try and test out and modify cables on my own. I installed both of these in my system last week (These replaced the molex to sata adapters i was using and also let me add new hdds) and they have been working flawlessly.
Best interaction I have had on TE so far and I loved meeting someone so passionate about his hobby and helping fellow members.
Thanks a tone mate and God bless.
Regarding your doubts, let me break it into sections so it is easy to answer,
Regarding Wire size and Standards
Regarding Copper and Wire Exposure
Regarding Crimping & Soldering
Regarding Terminal Pins and Terminal Pin Types.
I hope I have answered your doubts, if I missed any let me know.
When you crimp bare copper wire there is always a change that copper can react and turn into copper oxide , lowering conductivity .
If you happen to cut open wiring harness , you will find wires are in silver colour and not copper colour . Those wires are pre-tinned .
When you use tinned copper wire soldering is faster since it already tinned and does not damage the insulation .
I never meant to say crimps do not transfer current . Even with the NASA document that you shared there is also a chapter on solder joints . The document is more to deal with industrial wiring . A bad crimp can look good , but might be inadequate .
I would rather say it is uneven mating surface of the pins with the connector resulting in heat . A tight pin and connector will help transfer much more amps than an improper connector .
All the above points of mine are small incremental improvements of what you are excellently doing .
May be some day you will start a business full time and we can find branded cables .
I donât know how you quoted the post but for the life of me I donât know how to do it with this editor so itâs jumbled reply from me, sorry about that.
Regarding the Power draw/melting connector thing if you get time watch this video about the 50xx series circuit analysis, that video is about an hour long and kinda goes into depth, anyway I digress this is not what we are talking about.
The chance of having a improper connection due to bent pins is very low when dealing with molex, sata, PCI-e pins(12VHPWR is a different story). In these cables almost 99.9% of the time the power issue(and resulting heat) is due to overload. I myself have provided an example of a bent pin few post above but that is an outlier as far as I know. From what I have seen/heard/read the pins are generally sold unless someone pokes it with something other than the intended connector, but when that happens no matter the quality of the connector it will get damaged. So I kinda believe we are safe in that regard.
Said all that, the ATX pins are almost standard with split in the middle and a long dimple on both sides. It has been as such for a long time and they have worked till date, so I am not sure what can be changed, I will ask my supplier if they have any updated model though.
All feedback are always welcome, I donât know everything so I am more than happy to learn from others.
You are the 10+ person who talked about me starting a business but with my photo skills and marketing I will be wounder if I sell more than one lol
Crimp is fine . If you are splitting the wires then a solder or a crimp and then solder is good .
No. Even if the wire is covered the copper can still oxidise inside the insulation if there are air gaps . I do agree that the PSU would have died its natural death before than happens . At the same time , spending so much of time and effort on cables , I just like it 100% perfect . A cpu cabinet can get very humid due to heat and fans inside , so being extra cautious .
What I meant was that the crimp holds the 2 wires together . The current transfer is between the wires and on the outer skin of the copper wire . So a ferrule just holds the wires together if the wires are twisted before crimping .
I have had quite a few failure experience with molex and sata connectors . Many a times I have cut the molex or sata power and rewired . May be the ones on some PSU that you use have not caused any issues , but I always felt that the material thickness of the socket pins is a problem for tighter clamp force on the pins
May be much more thicker gauge .
Yes , No patience especially given that the guy is tracing the circuit and trying to explain . I would still say the burnt out connectors are due to the loose connection resulting in heat rather than the overload . Here is an example of the positive pin getting burnt while the negative pins are fine .
You did mention NASA standard , but I am not able to locate any information on crimps or ferrule standards from page 58 . All I could find is general talk on how to crimp and the tool settings .
The same NASA document explains in details on soldering , ferrule and the methods of soldering .
All that I said was for breakout cables Solder is much more fool proof for optimal conductivity which the NASA document also says .
If that is the case , why would PSU manufacturers use more expensive tinned cables rather than use bare metal copper wires ? If you happen to strip even the cheapest of PSU , you will find tinned wires . The sata connector is connected to the wires by punching the connectors into the wires and obviously no one wants a break down at that point .
Not really . Connector pin thickness varies with different manufacturers and so does the metal quality .
Yes and that is what I have been saying . You can also check posts on power strips and home diy thread where I have said the same .
It is not about the capacity . It is about the intermittent draw and resistance arcing which occurs when the connection is loose .
If you have proof for your claims then post them and I am more than happy to discuss, else I donât think you are adding anything of value here.
You can see the NASA document again from page 83 and tell us why NASA recommends crimping and soldering of wires for certain type of connections .
I am also providing a battery manufacturer link and tests as to why an improper connection or loose connection results in heat . https://assets.ctfassets.net/nh2mdhlonj7m/5W36sTB2E8sL5mOmUvC1St/79eae65b7f71c0034f7a20bea16ea315/WP_BatteryCableGuide_0512.pdf
That is called Industry standard . IEC 62368-1:2023 . Why are processors gold plated ? To prevent the pins or pads from corrosion . If the argument is going to be , why would the processor pins corrode in a cabinet inside a house or office when not under a water fall , no one would be able to provide an answer to your argument .
You seem to think I am not so intelligent to understand something as simple as bigger the wire size , higher the current transfer .
I love this back and forth even though I donât agree with either of you, but it is very informative and entertaining.
Have either of you not witnessed whatâs called a cold weld during crimping? Itâs the reason why hydraulic crimpers exist. Basically, you exert enough force on the stranded copper bits (tinned or bare) that they compress into essentially what is a solid chunk of copper, driving out all air and preventing any future oxidation/corrosion. This is then sealed off with heat shrink that has an internal heat-activated adhesive (called marine grade heat shrink, I havenât been able to find it in India though some people just use regular glue on the ends as a compromise).
Example:
The link goes on to explain how using solder as a filler in joints lowers electrical conductivity, which is why I avoid it as a primary solution for wire to connector scenarios unless if the connector enforces the use of solder, like in audio connectors or dc power jacks.
There is a use case for solder, such as wire to wire joints after a linemanâs splice like in the NASA document (where the wires are twisted tightly and then solder is used as protective layer) and component to pcb joints (where solder is used minimally and the joint is fixed in space).
Solder usually works out when thereâs little if any physical or vibrational interference such as switch boxes and mcbs. But the inside of a computer case will see constant vibrations from its internal fans, and a soldered wire to pin connection will eventually crack and fail because pc connectors have no strain relief. Wire-to-wire connections will be fine for the most part.
The lowered conductivity of solder also has minimal effect at low current (like 230V switches that see maybe 100W) but it would be problematic at high current (like a 12V graphics card that pulls 400W)
Solder vs crimp has become an endless, revolving discussion in every electrical community in recent years as the old-timers staunchly support solder and the new kids raise slogans for crimps. Itâs always fun.
Yes , I am aware and those hydraulic crimpers are not cheap . They cost in lakhs to do a crimp like the one in the picture .
If the crimp is not crimped properly , no tools for measuring the crimped area , tensile strength is not measurable how does one depend on the crimp ? I was not talking about any connector crimping . I was talking about soldering wires branched off .
Computer case fan vibrations are negligible compared to an aircraft or automotive usage where vibrations and stress play an important role . Inside the SMPS the wires are soldered to the board and never seen a break down except for dry solder joints after a decade .
There are 3 voltages . 12v , 5v and 3.3 v . The 5v and 3.3v carry substantial current as well .
Addendum: ferrules are for safety above everything else, so that you donât accidentally get electrocuted and to prevent loose strands from arcing. Theyâre convenient, but not superior.
Also: from the link, criticism of crimps is usually because of bad crimps (ha):
Cheap crimping pliers and throwaway crimping supplies are probably responsible for giving crimped electrical connections a bad reputation with many techs. The right crimping tool should grip the crimp connector, then compress it in a controlled fashion that fuses the wires into a solid mass. The wrong crimping tool may smash the connector instead, possibly damaging the crimped wire in the process and setting things up for a repeat failure.
That is what I have been saying on the DIY thread as well .
The cheaper 20-100 amp crimp tools do not have enough torque to tighten to specs . When there are air gaps in the crimp the oxidation can lead to catastrophic failures .
Cables inside the smps often have some kind of strain-relief.
I have a manual hydraulic crimp tool, I have gotten cold welds with it down to 4sq mm, itâs really awesome. It was around 4000, which makes it the most expensive âhandâ tool that I own:
Thereâs probably a reason why PSU manufacturers use tinned wire with crimped connections.
I think in their cost/reliability analysis, they decided that the convenience/speed of crimping is preferred within the time frame of their warranty, or lifespan of the unit, around 10 or 12 years.
And this makes sense, I asked an urban clap electrician about why urban clap has a service to replace internal wiring within walls (I assumed they were permanent), he said it becomes necessary after a couple of decades. Iâm assuming this is the time frame for the insulation to disintegrate and the copper to become corroded/oxidized.
1.5 sq MM wires are not so weak to break off .
That is literally cheap .
Because of the above . The wires are punched and not crimped or soldered . Humidity can corrode and the contact may get compromised . Many PSU have molded connectors which is fine for normal wire .
That is not just the copper . The heat ,humidity can corrode the insulation . Cheap insulation material can be â porous â and cause the copper to oxidise
@rsaeon Yes I am aware of cold weld crimping, in-fact the first job that I ever did on TE was for @Mann , where in wires of size 35sqmm and 16sqmm where used. The requirement was for 220A(or 250A I am not sure now) of power delivery so I decided thatâs the best option. Link to the job photos.
@yugaaa Provide evidence to support your claim.
Regarding crimping, I have proven my point of âIf it is good enough for NASA then it is good enough for meâ and you have yet to link even a single published standard document or study to support your claims stating otherwise.
Regarding copper corroding, Your claim of copper corroding and leading to issues is like saying sun is going to go supernova and asking us to take action. I have been saying from the beginning that even if corrosion is to happen, the psu would have long gone to landfill by the time that corrosion has any effect. So I will ask again provide proof of wire failure in psu due to copper corrosion.
I donât like to delete posts/replies in a for sale thread, as it gives readers context but I donât like unsubstantiated claims and fearmongering here. So provide proof for your claims or say you donât have one and that it is your personal opinion and move on.
Those copper lugs are tinned . Why ? They are meant to be crimped and soldered . The tinning is also done to prevent corrosion .
I have given a link to a battery manufacturer who has tested the crimped and crimp soldered terminals . Please check .
I have also give you the International industry standard for the manufacture of SMPS and PSU in computers , laptops . Please go through it . That IEC standard is what is used to approve in BIS in India .
I do not have proof , but I have had quite a few instances of Sata power socket or Molex connector failing due to wires or the pins .
If it is good enough for NASA it does not mean it would be good for any application . NASA will typically over engineer the conductor , core , crimps , insulation and they will do a million tests before approving even a fuse wire . They will also have built in redundancies into the systems .
When I went for a job the first time , the company director asked me to define what is â Quality â .
I said the best is quality .
Then he asked me I will give you the worlds best and the costliest fountain pen of the highest quality and a 1 re ball pen . Which would you choose to make a carbon copy ?
I told him I would choose the ball pen . Then he explained quality and standards are relative .
So similar is the NASA standard vs Industry standard .
Neways , I do not want to derail your business thread . I am not posting anymore on this .
