‘Tech delayed is tech denied’ -IAF Chief

[lockhrt999]

I know we get these weapons from other countries but anyone has any idea why india can't manufacture it themselves?

…it fled to other countries.

We should buy one F-35 and lease it to Bollywood for props.

With the cost of 35L per hour, it'll be the most expensive actor in the history of Bollywood.

 

[TEUser2K1]

With the cost of 35L per hour, it'll be the most expensive actor in the history of Bollywood.

35L is for radar paint job alone. There will be a considerably long list of other expenses.

 

[ronnie_gogs]

Getting the F35 is nice but they would cost so much.

• Pilot training : Each pilot has to be trained costing millions of dollars.
• Infrastructure for maintenance and operation: Lockheed Martin will not relinquish control of this and will demand expensive maintenance contracts which will cost more than the initial price of the aircraft. F35 needs its own maintenance facilities with training for maintenance personal.
• Spare parts supply and control : India always has made deals where they get to internalize the sourcing of spare parts and transfer of knowledge for the same. Will be difficult with a F35
• A single helmet for a F35 fighter which is customized to that pilot only costs $400,000

In the past India bought a few Belgian FN FAL and made unauthorized lower quality copies of the rifle called it L1A1 Self-Loading Rifle (SLR). They managed to do cost cutting by removing features and making unlicensed copies of a iconic rifle. Think they avoided a lawsuit by buying more original weapons. For so many years I thought it was called a SLR. Even when I got to use it in NCC the instructor never mentioned anything about the original FN FAL. Don't think you can pull any such stunt for a F35 for spares or operational equipment.

 

[blr_p]

thats what i am saying for AMCA we need safran or rolls royce as both of them are ready for TOT

Where did you read this? I do not believe it at all. Assembly is possible. But the actual material science to make engines. No chance

Even initial ISRo rockets were russian designs. Radars stealth etc we would be able to indigenously develop it.

Fighter jet engines are an order of magnitude harder if not more than rocket engines.

I know we get these weapons from other countries but anyone has any idea why india can't manufacture it themselves?

We do that with artillery because we have bought the ToT. If you're looking for a 'make in India' success story then this it.

 

[burntwingzZz]

Offering to co-develop and co-design jet engine, allowing India to own the IP: Rolls Royce

Rolls Royce offers unique fighter jet engine co-development with India, focusing on IP ownership and expanding aerospace ecosystem.

www.thehindu.com

Jet engine deal with France will give 100% access to technology, says Indian envoy

India and France collaborate on manufacturing an engine for India's fifth-generation fighter jet, with discussions ongoing for design and development.

www.thehindu.com

Russia offers Su-57 E to India, including production and transfer of critical technology

Rosoboronexport offers India partnership on Su-57E fighter aircraft, providing fifth-generation technologies and long-term cooperation opportunities.

www.thehindu.com

All of us know f-35 is chui mui aircraft but we will may have to buy to maintain diplomacy and keep pak in check. F-35 needs lot of integrations/maintenance etc but than one has to understand that teaches us the us mindset of an developing aircraft. And one squadron is more than enough. As that birds purpose is first strike / special missions.its very much proven for the climatic conditions of western region of india .Su-57 is russian aircraft its an aircraft made to operate in all weather and even on runways or no runways sturdy aircraft they make their aircraft for battlefield conditions.

Regarding a war situation ,it would be no flyzone .so it won't matter how small the radar signature is there, multiple sams will be fired and the sams have improved alot.

AMCA is absolute necessity but we need some marquee signings prior to it and good amount of squadrons to retire old planes immediately where su-57 and it's multiple versions fit superbly as per current situation.
All the future wars will be uav / good radars / jammers / missiles and boots on the ground

Luckily india is serious on uav/satellite and missiles.

 

[blr_p]

All of us know f-35 is chui mui aircraft but we will may have to buy to maintain diplomacy

Whay makes you think we have to go for F35 only, to ostensibly maintain diplomacy?

There are any number of other American platforms that we need also. Civilian or military. Remember there was this big Boeing deal with hundreds of planes needed?

and keep pak in check.

I've not cared about them since Balakote in terms of security threat. And the Afghans have been doing a pretty good job when it comes to keeping the Paks in check

Jet engine deal with France will give 100% access to technology, says Indian envoy

India and France collaborate on manufacturing an engine for India's fifth-generation fighter jet, with discussions ongoing for design and development.

www.thehindu.com

Ok

"What we are looking for is not just a transfer of manufacturing technology, which essentially keeps you going with the same crutches that you have been on for the last six decades

Right

, but to work in the actual design phase, metallurgical aspects, etc. So, Safran [French multinational firm that works in the aerospace and defence sectors] is fully willing to do it with 100% transfer of technology in design, development, certification, production, so on and so forth,” Mr. Ashraf said.

He's saying all the right things.

“But it’s obviously a very complex subject, and it has to fit in with the overall future requirements. So, these discussions will continue to take place. And that’s also part of the defence industry.”

It remains to be seen what exactly is worked out. I see this mention of 'jointly developed specs' which is no big deal.

the deal with General Electric (GE) is for the manufacturing licence of the already-operational F-414 engine, which is set to be manufactured in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. The U.S. government has given all approvals for the deal and it is now for the two companies to finalise the commercial agreements, officials said.

The deal will give India access to several technologies and industrial processes involved in the manufacture of jet engines and increase the capabilities of both public and private industries in India.
The F-414 engines are meant to power the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)-MK2, a larger and more capable variant of the LCA currently in service, and the initial version of the AMCA.
The development of the AMCA is planned in two phases: MK1 with the F-414 engine, and Mk2 with a more powerful engine in collaboration with France.

So this 100% tot transfer is a sales pitch by the French to compete with the Americans for the contract.

Very few countries have a proprietary right to jet engine technology and it is a closely-guarded secret due to its extreme criticality in modern warfare. India made unsuccessful attempts in the past to develop an engine locally under the now-shelved Kaveri project, which was sanctioned by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) in 1989.

That is the bottom line. Why would anyone share this tech that too with a non ally.

I can somewhat see the argument for older tech like the F414 engines which is four decades old already.

But not for AMCA, regardless of what the French are saying

 

[bssunilreddy]

2 Squadrons Of F-35s For IAF! Trump Offers F-35 Stealth Fighters To India, Expert Calls It Ideal To Bridge The Stealth Gap​

US President Donald Trump said that the United States will sell F-35 stealth fighter jets to India. Interestingly, the stealth fighters are participating in the Aero India airshow in Bangalore.

“Starting this year, we will be increasing military sales to India by many billions of dollars. We are also paving the way to ultimately provide India with the F35, Stealth fighters,” Trump said.

Trump also said the countries had struck an agreement that includes India importing more U.S. oil and gas to shrink the trade deficit between the two countries.

The F-35 offer comes as Russia has expressed interest in arming India with Su-57 stealth fighters and helping India with an indigenous AMCA program.

Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II​

The F-35 is a single-seat, single-engine, all-weather, stealth multirole combat aircraft designed for air superiority and strike missions. It also has electronic warfare and intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance capabilities.

Northrop Grumman and BAE Systems are the principal partners in the program with Lockheed Martin. The three main variants are the conventional take-off and landing (CTOL) F-35A, the short take-off and vertical-landing (STOVL) F-35B, and the carrier-based (CV/CATOBAR) F-35C. The aircraft won the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program competition in 2001.

Mostly funded by the US, other financial contributors included the United Kingdom, Australia, Canada, Italy, Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, and Turkey. Turkey was excluded after it procured the Russian S-400 air defense system. The UK was the only Tier 1 partner.

The technology demonstrator X-35A first flew in October 2000, and the F-35 prototype aircraft first flew in 2006. The F-35B entered service with the US Marine Corps in July 2015, the US Air Force F-35A in August 2016, and the US Navy F-35C in February 2019.

The very extensive initial flight test phase was completed in April 2018. The US proposes to buy around 2,500 F-35s through 2044 and operate till 2070.

F-35 Design Features​

The F-35 has a wing-tail configuration with two vertical stabilizers canted for stealth. Composites comprise 35 percent of airframe weight. At 13,300 kg empty weight, the F-35 is considerably heavier than the lightweight fighters (F-16, 8,573 kg) it replaces.

Internal weapon carriage reduces drag, and the powerful F135 (191 kN) single-engine allows Mach 1.6 speed with a full internal payload.

The thrust/weight at 0.87 at gross weight (1.07 at loaded weight with 50% internal fuel) compares with 1.095 (1.24) respectively for F-16s. The F135-PW-600 variant for the F-35B incorporates the Shaft-Driven Lift Fan (SDLF) to allow STOVL operations. Roll control during slow flight is achieved by diverting unheated engine bypass air through wing-mounted thrust nozzles.

Aircraft have great high angle-of-attack characteristics and maneuver agility. The avionics and sensor fusion enhances situational awareness and net-centricity.

The APG-81 AESA radar is among the best in the class. The helmet display is a key piece of the F-35’s human-machine interface, allowing “see-through” the aircraft view and off-bore-sight cuing of sensors and weapons.

The aircraft has a top-end electronic warfare system. F-35 has been tested in a manned-unmanned teaming role.

USMC F-35Bs participated in their first Red Flag exercise in July 2016 and flew 67 sorties. The first F-35B foreign deployment was at MCAS Iwakuni, Japan, in 2017.

Combat employment began in July 2018 from the amphibious assault ship USS Essex, with the first combat strike on 27 September 2018 against a Taliban target in Afghanistan.

F-35Bs operated from temporary bases in the allied territory within hostile missile engagement zones. The first USMC F-35C squadron became operational in July 2021 and was first deployed on board a carrier in January 2022.

The USAF F-35As conducted their first Red Flag exercise in 2017 and reportedly scored a kill ratio of 15:1 against F-16 aggressors. The first USAF F-35A deployment occurred in April 2019 to Al Dhafra Air Base, UAE, and was first used in combat in an airstrike on an Islamic State tunnel network in northern Iraq in the same month.

The first combat use of an RAF F-35B was in June 2019, when it was used for armed reconnaissance flights searching for Islamic State targets in Iraq and Syria. Since January 2022, Norway’s F-35As have replaced its F-16s for the NATO quick reaction alert mission in the high north.

The Israeli Air Force reportedly flew three F-35Is on a test mission to Tehran, Iran’s capital, and back to Tel Aviv in July 2018. Soon, the Israeli jets had been flown “all over the Middle East” and brought photographic evidence.

Since then, Israel has widely used its stealth fighter to strike hostile targets in the Middle East, including the latest strikes in Gaza. On March 6, 2022, F-35Is shot down two Iranian drones carrying weapons to the Gaza Strip. This was the first operational shootdown and interception carried out by the F-35.

F-35 For India​

Until now, the US has not officially offered the F-35 to India, but New Delhi’s geopolitical interests are drawing it closer to Washington.

However, some briefings have been given at delegation levels. The F-35s were brought to Aero India 2023, where they conducted daily flight demonstrations. They are here again at Aero India in 2025. Clearly, the U.S. sees India as a prospect.

2023 was the first time a fifth-generation aircraft operated on Indian soil. Was that a hint to the Indian establishment? However, the US wants India to buy the F-21 (a highly modified F-16) first before the F-35s.

India’s own AMCA induction with stealth features is at least 15 years away. If the US is willing to offer (as per Trump), one school of thought is that IAF should acquire two squadrons of F-35A.

Another question is whether India is ready to have yet another small fleet in addition to its multiple fighter fleets. Buying and maintaining the F-35 will be expensive.

But considering that India is already the fifth largest economy and will soon be the third largest, India would have to spend on security.

Due to Russian supplies, hold-up IAF currently has surplus capital funds. China is already armed to the teeth with fifth-generation J-20 fighters. Pakistan is increasing its fighter squadron strength and could acquire J-35 stealth jets from China.

India needs to fill the ‘stealth gap’ as soon as possible.

Buying around 40 F-35s and their weapons could enhance the IAF’s operational capability and be a significant deterrent. India’s security establishment must take its call. It is important to increase the number of IAF fighter aircraft quickly.

• Air Marshal Anil Chopra (Retired) is an Indian Air Force veteran fighter test pilot and is currently the Director-General of the Center for Air Power Studies in New Delhi. He has been decorated with gallantry and distinguished service medals while serving in the IAF for 40 years.

Source:https://www.eurasiantimes.com/2-squadrons-of-f-35s-for-iaf-as-trump-offer/?amp

 

[blr_p]

Offering to co-develop and co-design jet engine, allowing India to own the IP: Rolls Royce

Rolls Royce offers unique fighter jet engine co-development with India, focusing on IP ownership and expanding aerospace ecosystem.

www.thehindu.com

India is in advanced stage of talks with France for co-design and co-development of a 110 KN aero engine to power India’s fifth generation fighter, Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), that is under development, it has also been holding talks with Rolls Royce for sometime.

French are competing with the Brits here for AMCA.

On the ongoing effort between Rolls Royce and Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), U.K. Minister of State for Defence Vernon Coaker told The Hindu at Aero India that there was a successful phase 1, and discussions are on ongoing on what’s happened and how to take that forward.

On this Mr. Zion said they still believe they have a “very compelling” proposal for co-developing and co-creating IP here in India—IP that will be owned by India. “This ensures freedom of modification and action, which is crucial for moving at pace in an operational environment and maintaining control within India’s own ecosystem.”

They get around the IP barrier on existing engines by building a new engine from scratch.

What gen engine will it be for AMCA? That's what the ToT will depend on.

May not be cutting edge but something not older than two decades old?

Early days still. And this can drag go on for many years. So don't hold your breath

 

[bssunilreddy]

India needs to weigh pros & cons of F-35 pitch​

India will have to very carefully evaluate US President Donald Trump’s offer of the fifth-generation F-35 fighter, even though the IAF would love to grab it with both hands given the China factor, while the two countries take forward the procurement of six more P-8I long-range maritime patrol aircraft as well as joint production of Stryker armoured infantry combat vehicles and Javelin anti-tank guided missiles this year.

The expansive India-US defence relationship will get a further boost with PM Modi and Trump “pledging to elevate” military cooperation across air, land, sea, space and cyberspace, institute the ‘Autonomous Systems Industry Alliance (ASIA)’, streamline defence trade and technology exchange, and sign a 10-year major defence partnership framework to renew the one inked in 2015.

The sales pitch for the F-35, which is sold only to Nato countries and close allies, however, was the key takeaway. It might just be “a proposal” at this stage with the long-drawn formal process yet to even begin, as foreign secretary Vikram Misri said, but India will have to increasingly contend with a pushy Trump, whose deal-oriented transactional approach to geopolitics is well-known.

“Starting this year, we will be increasing military sales to India by many billions of dollars. We are also paving the way to ultimately provide F-35 stealth fighters,” said Trump. The joint statement also noted the US’s “review of its policy on releasing fifth-generation fighters and undersea systems” to India.

The pros and cons will have to be weighed. “India will inexorably be drawn into the US’s sphere of influence with the F-35 acquisition, impinging on its strategic autonomy. Why do you think successive Indian govts over the years have acquired Russian, French and other fighters but never American ones?” a senior official said.

If India indeed pursues the F-35 offer, it will also have to factor in several things like the off-the-shelf price, the technologies being given, life-cycle costs, maintenance and the like, apart from the strategic benefits it can reap.

Utmost care will have to be taken that India’s own 5th-Gen fighter project of the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA), the development of which for over Rs 15,000 crore was cleared by the cabinet committee on security last March, is not adversely impacted.

The operational 5th-Gen jets currently are the American F-35 Lightning-II and F/A-22 Raptor, the Chinese Chengdu J-20 and Russian Sukhoi-57. China has deployed J-20s at its airfields facing India and is even going to soon supply a variant to Pakistan, while it also conducted maiden flights of two new 6th-Gen prototypes in Dec.

With the IAF grappling with just 30 fighter squadrons when it is authorized 42.5, and Hindustan Aeronautics struggling to produce even a 4th-Gen Tejas, Indian national security planners are obviously concerned. “With AMCA still at least 10-12 years away from production, IAF will obviously be deeply interested in getting two to three squadrons (36 or 54 jets) of F-35s in the interim. If you need deterrence to prevent wars, you obviously need capabilities,” another official said.

The F-35 could now even fly its way into IAF’s long-delayed project for 114 new multi-role fighter aircraft to be produced in India with foreign collaboration at an initial estimate of Rs 1.25 lakh crore. The defence ministry is working to break the logjam over this project, where French Rafale, Russian Sukhoi-57, Swedish Gripen-E, Eurofighter Typhoon and American F-15EX are the contenders.

There is also the lingering question of the Russian S-400 Triumf air defence missile systems being inducted under the $5.43 billion contract in Oct 2018. The US is wary of any country operating F-35s and S-400s together since the latter’s powerful radars can “map or record” data of the former’s stealth characteristics, electronic warfare and other capabilities. This, too, will need to be resolved.

Source:https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...-cons-of-f-35-pitch/articleshow/118258672.cms

 

[blr_p]

2023 was the first time a fifth-generation aircraft operated on Indian soil. Was that a hint to the Indian establishment? However, the US wants India to buy the F-21 (a highly modified F-16) first before the F-35s.

F21 has always been the stumbling block.

Why get F21s when the Rafale or even Tejas can do the job?

 

[burntwingzZz]

we require fighter jets , gen 5 as the tip of the offensive defence and 4/5 gen engine for day to day sorties .people forgat migs /su 30 and all of them are near their EOL , tejas , MK2 , rafle , amca whatever we get we need it. than build upon whatever we get either through tot or we develop our own engine. as previously posted join with europe for 6 gen India took stupid decision to bailout from su-57 joint r&D

 

[adder]

One thing the SU57 will have is the ability to launch Astra and other Indian made air to air and air to ground weapons.

Also the S70 wingman can pack lot of weapons.

F35 cost per hour will be high and the restrictions put on it's use and we will mostly be asked to buy a Patriot Pac-3 and Thaad to replace the S400.

So the chances of IAF going for the F35 is slim.

AMCA ability to carry only 4 missiles internally is a serious shortcoming. It should have ideally been a heavy fighter with more powerful engines.

By the time any of those birds are inducted in next decade or so. Drones and AI would have improved by a lot making manned aircrafts obsolete.