Audio source for a Audio setup – PC or CD player? Which is the best option?

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gmano

Herald
I need to get a audio source for my audio setup, which is NAD 320 BEE amp + Monitor Audio BR2 Bookshelf speakers.
Now I am in a confusion, which one is the good source
1) A basic PC with a good sound card or a good DAC with USB
2) Plain CD player
While considering the first option, there will be lot of flexibility as I can store the music in HDD and can Play it. If I am advised to go this way, what would be the best option, good sound card? Or a good USB DAC?
Second option would be very simple but can only play audio CDs, no FLACs or whatever. If I have to chose this what would be the best option, I mean which CD player to chose?
Also I don’t want to spend a lot on this, I am looking for a cheap and best option :P
So Audio gurus I need your advice on this. Give your opinions.
 
I think it would be better to go for a [PC+good sound] card simply for the flexibility it offers
 
Kumar said:
I think it would be better to go for a [PC+good sound] card simply for the flexibility it offers

Eventhough it gives flexibility, at what cost the sound quality of a good CD player can be acheived? What I want to know is which is the cost effective way and what options in componants I have got?

I am not just expecting a simple answer, this or that? :ohyeah: :ohyeah:

I have created this thread for a discussion also, It will help others also to know about high quality audio.

Pour your views guys :D
 
If you multitask, ie read news/do work while you listen to music, the PC as a source is unbeatable.

On the other hand , if you consider listening to , and appreciating music as an activity in itself, ie you come home , sit on the couch, want to press play, and become one with the music , then the CD player will be a better bet

me , i fall for the flexibility any time :)
 
I bought a Cambridge audio Azur 540c CD player for abt 15k recently from Malaysia.

It sounds soooooooooo much better than the DVD player I was using earlier.

Now, I just need to download FLACs and burn audio CDs :D
 
Nikhil said:
I bought a Cambridge audio Azur 540c CD player for abt 15k recently from Malaysia.

It sounds soooooooooo much better than the DVD player I was using earlier.

Now, I just need to download FLACs and burn audio CDs :D

I am also considering the option of getting a Cambridge Audio 540c or 640c v2.
bottle tells me that DAC in 640c is much better. But I am also looking for cheaper options before deciding on these CD players :D

@greenhorn, I am keeping the audio setup in my living room and I prefer to listen to it as an activity :P . I need to assemble a separate PC for audio, only flexibility I can have in this set up is, I can use the same PC as my video source also. HTPC
 
ahh..

all thats very well.. but dont you think ur posting in the wrong thread.. looks like a certain lawyer is gonna be very pissed with you :P :P
 
sq wise the only difference will be in what DAC is being used. so pc plus a good soundcard/dac will equal or maybe even beat a cdp with a similar dac
 
I'll throw in my 2 bits, or 24.

The advantage in SQ that a CD player has over soundcards cannot be realised in entry-level or midline players.

Similarly, a good soundcard costs money, and in stock form can sound reasonable but not great.

Let's say your budget is about 20K. And you already have a PC. Then a pro soundcard with a few mods will put you in $2000 CD-player territory. You need a good power supply though. The VIP type power supplies have too much ripple and spoil the sound. And a good motherboard to prevent clicks and pops (the Jetway has a pretty bad PCI implementation, so clicks are a problem). And keep it quiet, which means less fans and good airflow. See how the costs start adding up?

I have a dedicated PC for music (see sig), but I'm lucky to have one that survived through a few upgrade cycles. I don't expect people to have that luxury. If you're just starting out, a CD player may be decent way to get acquainted with quality music.

And real CDs always have a tactile sensation. While the music is playing you can see the jackets, revel in the photography and liner notes. Some CDs suck fro sound quality, but it's not too tough to find ones you can like.

Having said all of that, I use a PC now and will never go back to having to get up every time I want to change a CD.

Also, my modded soundcards give me all I'll ever need in terms of sound. They have reached the point where my speakers are now the weak link (they were the strongest at one point) in my chain.

I use a remote keyboard and mouse to control the system, plus enough storage for 600+ CDs (I already own over 300). I don't bother with compression, all my music is stored as wav files in two places. I only use the system to occasionally watch DVDs, such as the ones that come in bonus editions, or the very few music DVDs I own. It's hooked up to my 29" CRT, and I had to mess with the display settings and font sizes to get it to the point where the desktop was actually visible and legible.

However my download rig has a tiny little Alien DAC hooked up internally, and this little thing would have hammered some very good CD players into the dust by itself, so the potential for quality PC audio is pretty high, specially at the source < 1 lakh mark. You would be disappointed with stock soundcard sources, btw - only modded ones can reach high levels of performance. The analog stages are pretty bog-standard, and a few good opamps and capacitors can really bring a system up a few quality levels.
 
^^ agree with bottle

a mid range CDP at 15K will have far inferior DAC than a dedicated DAC you can get for sub 10K

PS: Look for Info on Transit on the Hydrogenaudio forums (and not head-fi as I had said earlier)
 
@ sangram, you mean to say that I can not get good sound quality with an ordinary PC (I mean, regular power supply, et all) with a good sound card or something like M audio Transit?
what would be the minimum requirement in a PC (what kind of power supply, sound card) to get sound quality on par with a CD player?

@Abinav, I reading about Tansit. Thanks for your suggestions man.

@Stalker, I didnt get what you are trying to tell
 
@zhops: A USB unit with a wallwart will remove the power issue totally.

However USB has severe timing issues, and you either have to live with proprietary drivers (which are restrictive wrt performance and upgrades) which don't follow the USB protocol, or with async reclocking - this latter technology is still developing, and it'll take some time to come to the mainstream.

The best audio interface is a good clean PCI or PCI express bus, AFAIK. However the problems of the power supply and EMI interference start to come into play. Which is why units like the Hammerfall, 1010 and the 1820M are so good. They couple the digital signal off the PCI bus, convert them into a digital stream and move them into an offboard unit, usually separately powered, for final analog conversion.

The next is firewire, and the last is SPDIF. USB is not actually meant for audio, it uses a hack to get the timing right. In the case of the Alien, eg, there is a separate master clock on the DAC and the DAc has to 'guess' the audio coming off the bus. Not always perfect, but near enough to prevent disaster. The problem is that USB is async data, whereas audio requires sync data at all times. Mostly it's dandy, but sometimes the interface will lose sync and all you'll get is white noise.

@gmano: I would recommend you don't listen to me. I am afflicted with various diseases, audiophilia being one of them. When I started I just hacked a PC together with old parts and imported a soundcard. Only after constant listening and tweaking did I figure out what I wanted and what I was missing. I started at the very bottom (SB Live!), and I've forgotten some of those things.

To start with, the 0404 that zhops uses is a good entry-level card. I would've sold you an Alien if I had one to spare, but I don't so it's useless talking about it. I'm not sold on the Transit, TBH. The sound is a little mushy at the bottom end - may work for very basic tasks, but it's bottom of the m-audio barrel. I like the m-audio Audiophile if you can get your hands on one, but those are rare and need modding.

Juli@ is a good card, but the unbalanced outputs use some terrible capacitors at the output which kills all the joy of an otherwise great card. Would be a good choice if you use the balanced outputs and rig up some special patch cords for it (1/4" to RCA).

As for the motherboard, the chipsets to stay away from are the Via and Sis (any flavour), the nForce4 and nForce2. Intel chipsets are really the best when it comes to PCI and USB implementation, but they had their own problems with the 945 and 946. The pick of the bunch are the 965, 865 and 440BX (remember that one?). nforce3 is an excellent chipset, and I'm using 680i very successfully too, both USB and PCI are absolutely top-notch. I think the 690G may be a good chipset, but the Jetway I'm using requires very heavy latency, usually a sign of a bad chipset for audio (or a poorly implemented board). Zhops is using the same without issues, AFAIK and I guess it's my board.

Lastly, the power supply - I find this the most critical, some supplies announce their presence over onboard audio (let alone a good soundcard). It's difficult to point out a good performer at the low end, but the Corsair TX is one of the cleanest supplies reviewed across the web. I use an AntecTP480, which is pretty clean, but the top performer in my collection is a supply I got free with a case. I have no idea of its wattage, and I nearly sold it at one point. Clean and rock solid rails, and it powers my 1212m (PCI) absolutely cleanly.

I would therefore recommend:

Juli@ or Audiophile. 0404 in case the above 2 are not available or out of budget.

Intel G965 mobo. If video performance is important, then nVidia 7100 (I hope the PCI works as well on that board as it does on the 680i).

CorsairVX450 minimum, more for a clean power output than for power. If you can grab hold of a 300watt Seasonic, nothing like it. Stay away from the low-end antecs, but Earthwatts should be a good supply. Phantom will be totally noiseless.

Finally, a quiet case with a few 7volted fans and passive CPU cooling. You can underclock the CPU, not much power is required for this machine to work.
 
Sangram, the usb issues you mentioned would manifest themselves in the form of pops/clicks/aberrations (if they occur) rather than reduced SQ

I personally found that usb soundcards , when handling low bandwidth stuff like CD audio very rarely (e.g. when i am l connecting to my htpc via rdp from my laptop....not something that you do all the time) exhibit this problem (PCI cards do not)

on the other hand, usb sndcards provide better analog emi noise insulation since they are well enclosed outside the noisy environs of the PC (vs. pci cards)

I tested this by increasing the vol. of my amp to the max while not playing anything

in the case of a usb dac/card, there is near 0 noise (minor hiss from tweeters)

in the case of pci card, there was audible (from close quarters) electrical hum

The power supply in the latter case was a generic PSU, the power supply in the former case was the same generic PSU (for the M-Audio transit) and a dedcicted wallwart (M-Audio audiophile) (I couldnt spot any difference b/w the Transit/audiophile)

Despite the fact that I am not sure if this noise thing would really be noticeable at usual playback volumes (10'o clock position), I would rather take the former evil anyday (the very rare pops/clicks)

since video isnt a concern, and given the budget and space constraints at hand, my recommendation would be a D201GLY2 and a USB M-Audio or Emu cardin a slim case
 
I'll have to sit on the other side of the fence. I prefer a 'black' background, which is obtainable by careful PS selection (anything better than a generic PSU is good) and a good motherboard, plus a decent regulation system. USB cards can also leak noise - if they are bus powered there is little difference between them and a PCI card. I don't like the remote chance of any pops or clicks (though I have to agree with you that they are rare, but it's like agreeing to drive a car with one loose wheel).

Of course I can mod my equipment to reach the necessary level, others may not be able to do the same - which is why I recommend a CDP over entry-level soundcard/PC combos. Less hassle, easier to mod and get modded, and last through multiple upgrade cycles.

I am in no way against USB, mind you, but for serious listening I'll take PCI any day. I built my own USB-DAC with Muse and FM capacitors which can kick a lot of CDP butt, but it's not easy to build or tweak. And the maxed out 1212m will kick dust in its face, and if I had a maxed out Lynx22, it would take the cake. But I don't, not yet. So there's really no end to thinking.

However, I looked at the OP and realised the equipment can do just fine with almost anything better than an X-fi - any of the recommendations will do the TS just fine. It's a question of preferences.

I would stay away from the Celerons/D201GLY though. In contradiction to what I said earlier. I have no clue how much attention is paid to the PCI bus or indeed USB, and IIRC it's a Sis chipset. I was thinking of one myself for a 24x7 download rig, and it'd be great for something like that, but for audio I'd cut myself off at a Sempron, nothing less. I prefer having a bit of processing headroom in case I need to activate resampling. Even track changes take a bit of power (I load the entire track into memory to keep the disk from seeking in the middle of playing, this takes some grunt to do).
 
I don't like the remote chance of any pops or clicks (though I have to agree with you that they are rare, but it's like agreeing to drive a car with one loose wheel).

Dissagree with the analogy there

pops/clicks will happen if you do something that would disrupt the data flow via the usb port (e.g the rdp disruption I talked abt in my example)

unless you do something to disrupt the data flow (very unlikely in a serious listening session), it's as good as driving a well oiled , well tuned machine

USB cards can also leak noise - if they are bus powered there is little difference between them and a PCI card.

there's a big difference

the pci card sits naked with all the post digital circuitry exposed to the EMF whirlwind inside the chassis

the cleanest of PSUs can's prevent noise pickup by the analog cicrcuit etchings on the board in a pci card

and any amount of modding in a PCI card cannot help with that

As for the D201GLY2, even though I personally havent used one, the yonah core should be more than adequate to handle a simple task like resampling with plenty of headoom
 
superczar said:
Disagree with the analogy there

pops/clicks will happen if you do something that would disrupt the data flow via the usb port (e.g the rdp disruption I talked abt in my example)

If you use any flavour Windows, you don't really need to do anything. Switching power states (happens all the time) is enough to upset sync balance on USB. What do you think happens when Windows writes to the swap file? Unless you switch off file swapping and use the PC in 'Standard PC' HAL, you will have the risk of these issues. And even then you're not 100% sure of the results. Linux is safer, though, and support for at least m-audio products on Linux is quite good.

Not that PCI is immune either, mind you, but it recovers more gracefully, with very little chance of total loss of sync.

the cleanest of PSUs can's prevent noise pickup by the analog cicrcuit etchings on the board in a pci card

and any amount of modding in a PCI card cannot help with that

If you ever closely inspected a professional audio card, you would understand why this is totally not true.

These things are built to record the music you listen to, while inside the PC case, and use multiple ground and power planes to avoid the very interference you're talking about. Though my Delta66 has only one plane, the 1212 has 4 (yes, 4) planes - a digital ground, analog ground, positive and negative supplies. The guys who built these things knew the environment they would be in, and the results show. With an X-fi or SB Live, it's possible they would pick up a little more noise.

As for interference 'in the air', it's possible that if you had a horribly designed motherboard it would be dumping a lot of noise back into the power lines or the ether. But a decent motherboard will not - as long the devices are carefully chosen and properly implemented, you'll be fine. At one time all pro cards were specified only for Intel chipset motherboards, and there was a reason for that.

Components are quite resilient to the antennae effect, specially the SMD types have little/no inductance due to the absence of leads. The only problem is if you live near a transformer or have an electrically noisy environment, then there is little anyone can do. I have a noisy cellphone issue (not mine, my neighbor's) that affects my TV, and only heavy shielding of speaker cables mitigated (but has not totally solved) the issue of my main rig. USB is not immune to this kind of interference.

However if you are plagued with antennae problem because of a poor mobo or supply (though a supply cannot cause these kind of problems), a homemade shield of aluminum foil and transparency sheets does just fine to filter out all buzz. Old Coke cans work just as well, and there may be a hundred other similar ideas.

The only reason to put a converter outside the case is line noise, the cable length allowing decoupling from supply noise. This is the one thing USB has got going for it, which is also avoided by judicious choice of PSU and motherboard in a PCI-based system. It is assumed that if you're buying a pro-level component, you would choose a configuration that would serve the whole objective well. You can't buy a very expensive card and dump it into an el-cheapo system. Just doesn't work.

In any case a good PSU will yield a fully black background. I think the TS has enough information to make a choice. Almost anything will work fine, I find that the ultimate sound quality of a good PCI solution will be far better than USB. Think about it, you get PCI solutions till $2000, whereas USB devices stop at 500 dollars. There's a reason why.

However at 200 dollars or less, either works fine.
 
And btw 44.1 to 48KHz resampling in ultra mode using PPHS, takes about 40% of a Sempron 2500+ CPU, or 15% of my X2 4000+. The (better) SSRC resamplers don't even work without severe popping on the Sempron, and on an X2 can only run in high quality mode (not Ultra). Ultra mode resampling is quite CPU-intensive, so be careful what you get. If your card only supports native 48KHz sample rate, be prepared to use a resampler. It's not listenable without.
 
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