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NotMyRealName
Blockchain good, mining bad!
Chia Plotting Service in India
- Thread starter rsaeon
- Start date
The technology is certainly great but it has been over-hyped. Despite several years it hasn't materialised in to anything that cannot be done by existing technologies. The fact is that large corporates and banks don't need a decentralized ledger. They prefer their existing databases and if needed they can have copies across multiple locations to distribute risk.
It is likely to be useful for public-facing data but apart from them it is not getting into places where the money is anytime soon.
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NotMyRealName
Nope you're wrong it is that bad. Not just pricing, availability.
Till a few days ago even regular SSDs (useless for plotting) were overpriced and only with 3rd party sellers. 8tb and 16tb have vanished. 8tb is the best bang for the buck compared to 4 etc. And can't exactly visit prime in the middle of lockdown so have to depend on Amazon FK right? As i said I'm checking daily. I just need a damn daily driver SSD because my old ones about to croak. But i ain't paying 4k for something that was 3k a year ago, for example.
I'm just glad i bought my 8tb last year. Would have been screwed now. Wishing i got the 16 then instead.
Crypto currencies now partly are hideously supported by banks and transaction agents who gain excessive profit on conversion /exchange rates. Some big banks benefits from it. The so called bitcoin whales many from China and Russia may offload the whole thing softly on shoulders of small owners in long term and crash it. The current trend of shifting to low end shitcoins is the primary indicator for that.
Already talks are going on about GovCoin by Federal Reserve or such agencies in USA , once introduced they will enforce strict laws on the whole murky business.
Already talks are going on about GovCoin by Federal Reserve or such agencies in USA , once introduced they will enforce strict laws on the whole murky business.
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NotMyRealName
Not like Bitcoin etc has any utility either. I get that some people have gotten filthy rich off of it, but what the heck does proof of work mean? What effing work???
I mean i used to think that folding and seti @ home were nonsense but at least those calculations had some objective. Mining is just wasting valuable resources. Not even talking about gpus and drives.
I mean i too wish i had bought one Bitcoin a decade ago and be a millionaire now yada yada, but how can people condone the phenomenal amount of waste?
It's like saying i order 500 dishes a day from Zomato and throw 497 into the trash unopened because my credit card points from the orders are worth more than the money i spend throwing away those orders. It's that ridiculous. You get rich but what's the cost?
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Not denying that but Chia takes it on to another level, tbh cryptos are the QNET for the new generation. Dazzling the gullible with mumbo jumbo which in reality is just a pyramid scheme.
Bitcoin is probably the first step in making digital currencies mainstream, these cryptos are probably a beta test for rolling out government backed digital currencies while getting the newer generations accustomed to the idea going by the way the media pushes Dogecoin and all these NFTs.
Central govt. backed digital currencies are coming within this decade and it'll have its pros and cons. They'll tax you to death but you could also keep a tab on govt. spending although I doubt the latter will happen.
if you look at block chain… it is just a simple linked list with md5 hash of everything in the previous nodes.
this means if you have a constant complexity for adding a new node. so for example if you do one transaction and the cpu cycles that needed for calculating the hash may cost 1 dollar then every transaction will cost a dollar for maintaining the block chain.
proof of work is where it gets really shitty. guessing a random number from a random hash just to prove you have compute while wasting a million cpu cycles is the most retarded thing i have seen. it becomes even more retarded as the proof of work becomes more complex as the nodes get added. if is like the cpu cycles/ energy required for proof of work becomes exponential. it is not a sustainable model.
another problem is with storage… if you want to be a full node you have to maintain the full block chain. this means the more transactions we need more storage. i remember the entire btc block chain was just few gigs few years ago. not sure how big it is now but it is not sustainable model either.
Maybe you're conflating limited availability due to Covid-19 with Chia? Two days ago I could only add 72 4TB drives to my Amazon cart. Today it's 528.
For as long as the 16tb drives were available during May on Amazon, they only had two. But if we take the last price that I saw at 24k, then 4x4tb is just 6k more, making it a viable alternative for Chia farmers compared to 40k+ for an internal drive. If one 4TB drive fails, that's just 4TB less plots, compared to having a single 16TB drive fail with 4x as many plots. These drives are in a JBOD configuration, so there's no redundancy or raid needed for Chia farming. So 4x drives makes more sense for a strategic plan at farming Chia. But these 4TB drives don't appear to be limited in their availability.
Also, the lowest price for a Desktop 8TB external on Amazon was 13800, making it just 1200 more than the current pricing of two 4TB's. In the last three days, the 4TB dropped to as low as 7200, making it just 600 more than the lowest price for 8TB, and you get the three months extra of Adobe CC which has value for the end user. Which would make 2x4TB a better deal than a single 8TB for the end user, if someone needs external storage right now.
Regarding Chia, what I'm saying is that just because the 8TB and 16TB are out of stock, doesn't mean they've been snatched up by crypto farmers. It could just have been limited supply. Otherwise the crypto farmers would take the 4TB drives too. And it would make more sense for them to do so.
PrimeABGB are shipping orders, if you really need a drive at close to regular prices. Prices have increased since a year ago, even since six months ago, even three months ago. That's just the government doing government things, unrelated to crypto. The MRP stickers on the same part number have increased during the last six months, I can show you if you want proof of this.
I'm trying to understand what you mean by this. Like, how is it a waste?
Let's say I buy a laptop with a 60w power adapter, and use it for two hours to make a logo that I sell on Fiverr for $5. Do we care what that person on Fiverr does with our $5 logo? No, we care about being paid that $5 for our two hours of work. I invested in hardware, used electricity, and earned cash.
How is mining not similar to this? Someone buys a GPU, pays the electricity bill for it, and gets paid a net profit from whoever benefited with the mining he did. He doesn't care about who did what with his mining, He just cares about being paid for it, just like the Fiver logo designer. The only difference is that the numbers are higher with mining while still being a net profit.
A bad analogy would be how restaurants throw away hundreds of kilos of biryani every month and they still end up making a net profit regardless of the amount of LPG and ingredients wasted. There are obscene amounts of 'waste' in nearly every industry, you just don't see it as clearly.
Going sideways to your Zomato example, that delivery person spends 10 hours a day on a two wheeler, either waiting for orders or delivering orders (he has a 1 hour lunch in between). Couldn't you say that 10 hours of waiting and roaming have been a waste when instead he could work for Amazon as a CSR for more money and less effort? He'd also not be burning petrol or end up being exhausted at the end of the day.
There's a little 'waste' in everything we do, and perhaps the actual conspiracy/propaganda concerning crypto is inflating this 'waste' to make it appear as unpalatable to the public at large, thereby increasing civilization's reliance on the status quo instead of exploring new decentralized technologies where no single entity holds any dominant power. Woah, tinfoil hat.
I'm starting to think you don't understand crypto because you've never actually earned crypto. I mean that it has never been a currency for you, it has always been an investment, that when viewed from the outside, actually looks like utter foolishness. From this perspective, everything what you and @psyph3r said makes sense.
But I have used crypto as a currency. I've earned with it, I'm still currently being paid in crypto, I make purchases in crypto and I convert to fiat whenever I need fiat. I have never bought crypto with fiat and I never will and I would never suggest anyone to do so either. For me, crypto has always been a medium, a currency, and not an investment. I'd say it's better you invest in hardware, that way you'll always have something left if crypto doesn't work out.
And that's why I started this thread. To help people who are unable to make Chia plots, by plotting on their behalf so that some day, they may earn crypto and convert to fiat.
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That's a little hyperbolic. Look at it from the point of the individual miner.
It's more like you use a 15k GPU to earn $2.25 per day and then pay $0.50 a day in electricity, for a net profit of $1.75 per day. Or Rs 3.5k per month.
There are worse ways to earn less profit from the same capital.
It's more like you use a 15k GPU to earn $2.25 per day and then pay $0.50 a day in electricity, for a net profit of $1.75 per day. Or Rs 3.5k per month.
There are worse ways to earn less profit from the same capital.
That's what is wrong. We are only looking from the point of an individual miner while ignoring the bigger impact this is having on the environment. I don't mind people using renewable sources of energy for mining or now farming but using coal generated electricity.
Yes all human activities have a carbon cost and other costs as well but it's because we haven't been looking at the bigger picture till now that we find ourselves in the predicament we are now related to environmental issues we face now. Plus all the other activities serve some purpose or the other but till now, we haven't seen any real world application of the cryptocurrencies till now. And if to really be used as a currency there needs to be govt regulations then what's wrong with just sticking to the current govt regulated govt currencies.
dafreaking
Herald
I had 4x 8tb WD My Book drives in my cart but thanks to the lockdown I wasn't able to order them. Had finally decided to shuck and build my NAS. I guess it will take some time for them to come back in stock. Also needed to buy 3x16TB and at 25K a a pop it would have been perfect for a backup of the NAS. Oh well. Hopefully the next project won't be in TBs otherwise I'm screwed again.
This along with a generally shitty hardware situation this past year has mean I missed out on upgrading from my trusty 5820K once again...
This along with a generally shitty hardware situation this past year has mean I missed out on upgrading from my trusty 5820K once again...
I understand a little now, about this 'waste'. How so many miners do the mining and only one gets the block reward at any point in time. The daily earnings is just a smoothened out average.
But isn't that life in general? Or even human effort in general? There's only one class topper no matter how many people try. There's only a limited number of free seats in an entrance exam. There's only one first place in sports. Isn't the human effort of all the other people wasted? They just keep trying, reattempting the exam or repeating the course or competing again in the next year's event until they either win or give up.
That basic principle of awarding the prize to one out of many is very basis of our civilization. There's just one leader, one winner, but do we say that everyone else's efforts has been wasted? I guess we do, but we accept it as a fact of life. But that same acceptance isn't applied to crypto and specifically crypto and no other industry.
People are comparing Bitcoin's yearly electrical usage across all countries and continents as a single number, and ending up with a gigantic amount. It may be more realistic to compare as a percentage of a single country's electrical usage to get a more understandable number. For example, does Bitcoin account for 10% of India's electrical consumption?
Or if you want take that gross number, it's about 114TWh per year now according to https://www.cnbctv18.com/business/e...d-how-much-energy-does-it-consume-9359151.htm The worldwide electrical consumption for 2018 was 22,315 TWh: https://www.iea.org/reports/electricity-information-overview How is 0.005% of anything a huge waste? More importantly, 99.995% of the world's electricity is being used for something that isn't Bitcoin. There's a bigger chance of finding something more wasteful than Bitcoin in that 99.995%.
But yes, Bitcoin comes out entirely inefficient when compared to a payment method like VISA. But then VISA isn't available everywhere and there's a barrier to entry and there's no anonymity. In this regard, people may prefer the benefits of crypto over it's inefficiency. Bitcoin, or crypto in general, allows people in countries that do not have access to western payment methods, a way to earn income from a global market. There are countries where Paypal has no presence, but the people there earn online in crypto instead and later convert to fiat through various middlemen. These people would have been deprived of this newfound income if the crypto naysayers had had their way. Suddenly, this becomes a unique way of oppressing an entire country's population from progressing economically.
Continuing with the education example, entrance exams have been cancelled or postponed to the following year. So a student's year of preparation has been wasted, and he has been deprived of an additional year of income in his later life. But we accept these more readily than crypto's correction.
I linked to article in a previous comment but paraphasing, 100 companies are responsible for 71% of the world's carbon emissions, and none of them are affiliated with crypto.
Amazon briefly mentioned an in-stock date of June 3rd (or 23rd, I'm sorry, I don't remember exactly) a few weeks ago for the Seagate 8tb. So keep an eye out and you should be able to get them.
But isn't that life in general? Or even human effort in general? There's only one class topper no matter how many people try. There's only a limited number of free seats in an entrance exam. There's only one first place in sports. Isn't the human effort of all the other people wasted? They just keep trying, reattempting the exam or repeating the course or competing again in the next year's event until they either win or give up.
That basic principle of awarding the prize to one out of many is very basis of our civilization. There's just one leader, one winner, but do we say that everyone else's efforts has been wasted? I guess we do, but we accept it as a fact of life. But that same acceptance isn't applied to crypto and specifically crypto and no other industry.
People are comparing Bitcoin's yearly electrical usage across all countries and continents as a single number, and ending up with a gigantic amount. It may be more realistic to compare as a percentage of a single country's electrical usage to get a more understandable number. For example, does Bitcoin account for 10% of India's electrical consumption?
Or if you want take that gross number, it's about 114TWh per year now according to https://www.cnbctv18.com/business/e...d-how-much-energy-does-it-consume-9359151.htm The worldwide electrical consumption for 2018 was 22,315 TWh: https://www.iea.org/reports/electricity-information-overview How is 0.005% of anything a huge waste? More importantly, 99.995% of the world's electricity is being used for something that isn't Bitcoin. There's a bigger chance of finding something more wasteful than Bitcoin in that 99.995%.
But yes, Bitcoin comes out entirely inefficient when compared to a payment method like VISA. But then VISA isn't available everywhere and there's a barrier to entry and there's no anonymity. In this regard, people may prefer the benefits of crypto over it's inefficiency. Bitcoin, or crypto in general, allows people in countries that do not have access to western payment methods, a way to earn income from a global market. There are countries where Paypal has no presence, but the people there earn online in crypto instead and later convert to fiat through various middlemen. These people would have been deprived of this newfound income if the crypto naysayers had had their way. Suddenly, this becomes a unique way of oppressing an entire country's population from progressing economically.
Continuing with the education example, entrance exams have been cancelled or postponed to the following year. So a student's year of preparation has been wasted, and he has been deprived of an additional year of income in his later life. But we accept these more readily than crypto's correction.
I linked to article in a previous comment but paraphasing, 100 companies are responsible for 71% of the world's carbon emissions, and none of them are affiliated with crypto.
Amazon briefly mentioned an in-stock date of June 3rd (or 23rd, I'm sorry, I don't remember exactly) a few weeks ago for the Seagate 8tb. So keep an eye out and you should be able to get them.
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NotMyRealName
It's certainly a HUGE coincidence if, just a few days after the global hard drive shortages, the same started reflecting on amazon AND fk in india. And the 8 and 16TBs were almost never OOS for the past many months. 4TBs don't really count and even the seagate 8TBs because they're SMR.
Also, you're not really serious about 4x4TBs replacing a 16 for someone who actually needs one. Just the power and space constraints would drive them nuts. Globally, the larger sized drives are definitely affected by chia mining, dunno why you're having such a hard time accepting that it's too much of a coincidence not to be so in India too.
And others have explained well by now what the waste is, I don't think i need to reiterate the same.
I completely agree that cryptocurrencies have value. The problem I have is with mining. We can keep going around with circular logic so let me gracefully bow out of this and we can both believe what we want. I'm also genuinely sorry for crapping on your thread but I had to say what I needed to. Nothing personal mate.
Totally. Chia is a whole different level of utter rubbish. Thing is these days, everything's about fads and hype. This is eerily similar to how the stock market works. Just because millions of people are making quadrillions doesn't mean the gullible little fry aren't getting swallowed up whole.
SMR drives are uniquely suited for Chia farming because there's no writes to be done once the plots have been copied, just reads.
I'm suggesting they were never out of stock because people never wanted to buy them. It's just a theory. I'm basing this on Amazon's price of 24k for the 16tb externals vs 40k in the offline market. These prices are before Chia's launch, I really wanted a NAS back in April. Maybe Amazon dropped the price to move stock, as they often do. In one such instance I got an X299 motherboard that is ancient by today's standards for a full 10k less than the offline market or even other online stores.
Globally, yes, supply and pricing of drives is affected. I've not denied this. But looking at PrimeABGB's in stock numbers tells me that no one is buying them — at least from them, ha.
Actually, this has been an extremely healthy conversation and I'm especially grateful for what I've learned.
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NotMyRealName
If SMR was good enough, then why the global shortage too? Maybe chia miners don't know that it's enough want the latest greatest and biggest? Anywho...
The externals were always that much cheaper than the exos. Multiple reasons. Warranty for one. And there are rumours that externals use binned drives. I've always been shucking my drives though. No way i'm paying the retarded Indian prices the second you want something slightly better than the mainstream.
Again, i've been following the pricing and stock trends for months now. It's become part of my daily bookmarks tabs routine. So i believe i know what i'm talking about. I could be wrong, but this is just too much of a coincidence otherwise. Abroad, they're not completely OOS, but almost doubled in price certain places. Here, they've just disappeared from amazon. FK was never good with large drives anyway. Amazon is saying a 6TB mybook will be in stock on June 24!!! and the price is almost at 8tb level. And theres a backup plus 8tb for 25k ! I've never seen this kind of glut for months maybe years now.
Also, prime's internet and real world sync is like a decade behind. No offense gulbir!
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Major Indian Bank HDFC Says 'It's a Matter of Time Before Indian Investors Have Legal Access to Crypto Plays' – Featured Bitcoin News
One of India's leading private banks with 5,608 branches and 16,087 ATMs, HDFC Bank, has published a report stating that "it is just a matter of time before Indian investors have legal access to crypto plays." This statement came as the bank scrutinizes crypto transactions in customer accounts.
Just a small correction (apologies for pointing this out specifically but this was bugging me
), Bitcoin was launched in 09 I think, although development had started in 2008 itself I think. This was done by Satoshi after the 2008 crisis, as a way of response to the current financial and banking systems in place.dafreaking
Herald
Those aren't great when shucked and chucked in to a NAZ or ZFS system. Also, I already have 4 x 8Tb WD Elements so the my books sort of match those.