Critical thinking in Indian Society
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Well, I have to agree
Critical thinking requires the following things.
1. Being able to think for yourself and reaching your own conclusions.
2. Questioning your own beliefs and line of thinking from time to time.
3. Open minded to your beliefs and line of thinking being questioned by others.
4. Open minded to changing your beliefs or line of thinking over time.
In India, its rare to find the first trait itself let alone the rest. So, to me, its not even a question of feedback.
The indoctrination of religion and culture in India is so bad that it seems that it has ingrained at a genetic level to such an extent that the very concept of thinking and questioning has become an alien behavior. So, for instance it is considered normal to follow some ridiculous custom without knowledge of why it exists or without ever questioning why it should continue to exist.
If you think about this, it remind of this social experiment.
A group of scientists placed five monkeys in a cage, and in the middle, a ladder with bananas on top.
Every time a monkey went up the ladder, the scientists soaked the rest of the monkeys with cold water.
After a while, every time a monkey would start up the ladder, the others would pull it down and beat it up.
After a time, no monkey would dare try climbing the ladder, no matter how great the temptation.
The scientists then decided to replace one of the monkeys. The first thing this new monkey did was start to climb the ladder. Immediately, the others pulled him down and beat him up.
After several beatings, the new monkey learned never to go up the ladder, even though there was no evident reason not to, aside from the beatings.
The second monkey was substituted and the same occurred. The first monkey participated in the beating of the second monkey. A third monkey was changed and the same was repeated. The fourth monkey was changed, resulting in the same, before the fifth was finally replaced as well.
What was left was a group of five monkeys that – without ever having received a cold shower – continued to beat up any monkey who attempted to climb the ladder.
If it was possible to ask the monkeys why they beat up on all those who attempted to climb the ladder, their most likely answer would be “I don’t know. It’s just how things are done around here.”
A majority of people in our country behave exactly like this. People feel proud about doing things the way they have always been done without ever questioning whether it is the right way to do it and whether it should be done at all. In fact, this is also the root case for lack of scientific temper as well as lack of morality.
Amusingly enough, this kind of mindset has its repercussions in our technology industry as well like for instance IT and software development. Despite the fast paced industry that it is, I have noticed the Indian software industry is filled with people with mindsets which refuse any kind of change. Given a code base, they will never question any code written by their predecessors unless a bug is identified. They are disinclined to change stuff to make it better because that is how things were done till now.
Critical thinking requires the following things.
1. Being able to think for yourself and reaching your own conclusions.
2. Questioning your own beliefs and line of thinking from time to time.
3. Open minded to your beliefs and line of thinking being questioned by others.
4. Open minded to changing your beliefs or line of thinking over time.
In India, its rare to find the first trait itself let alone the rest. So, to me, its not even a question of feedback.
The indoctrination of religion and culture in India is so bad that it seems that it has ingrained at a genetic level to such an extent that the very concept of thinking and questioning has become an alien behavior. So, for instance it is considered normal to follow some ridiculous custom without knowledge of why it exists or without ever questioning why it should continue to exist.
If you think about this, it remind of this social experiment.
A group of scientists placed five monkeys in a cage, and in the middle, a ladder with bananas on top.
Every time a monkey went up the ladder, the scientists soaked the rest of the monkeys with cold water.
After a while, every time a monkey would start up the ladder, the others would pull it down and beat it up.
After a time, no monkey would dare try climbing the ladder, no matter how great the temptation.
The scientists then decided to replace one of the monkeys. The first thing this new monkey did was start to climb the ladder. Immediately, the others pulled him down and beat him up.
After several beatings, the new monkey learned never to go up the ladder, even though there was no evident reason not to, aside from the beatings.
The second monkey was substituted and the same occurred. The first monkey participated in the beating of the second monkey. A third monkey was changed and the same was repeated. The fourth monkey was changed, resulting in the same, before the fifth was finally replaced as well.
What was left was a group of five monkeys that – without ever having received a cold shower – continued to beat up any monkey who attempted to climb the ladder.
If it was possible to ask the monkeys why they beat up on all those who attempted to climb the ladder, their most likely answer would be “I don’t know. It’s just how things are done around here.”
A majority of people in our country behave exactly like this. People feel proud about doing things the way they have always been done without ever questioning whether it is the right way to do it and whether it should be done at all. In fact, this is also the root case for lack of scientific temper as well as lack of morality.
Amusingly enough, this kind of mindset has its repercussions in our technology industry as well like for instance IT and software development. Despite the fast paced industry that it is, I have noticed the Indian software industry is filled with people with mindsets which refuse any kind of change. Given a code base, they will never question any code written by their predecessors unless a bug is identified. They are disinclined to change stuff to make it better because that is how things were done till now.
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Some time back, I encountered some old code in a code base that roughly translates to something like below.
if (2 > 5) doSomething;
else doSomethingElse;
Leaving aside the fact that the if part will never get executed, neither of the code blocks were doing anything meaningful and the whole thing was meaningless.
A very senior developer with 12 years experience argued with me for more than a day to not change this code because he believed that there must be some reason why this code exists and he has a strong hunch that there must be some cases when the if part will get executed. He has no understanding of the code or any inclination to try to understand it, but he was strongly against changing it (borderline paranoia) because of a hunch he has no justification for having.
This is an example of same sort of mentality extended to programming. I see this sort of irrationality uncountable times when dealing with Indian software professionals. While I cannot claim that I haven't seen similar behavior from non-Indians, the difference is that I have seen it in more than 90% of Indian programmers.
if (2 > 5) doSomething;
else doSomethingElse;
Leaving aside the fact that the if part will never get executed, neither of the code blocks were doing anything meaningful and the whole thing was meaningless.
A very senior developer with 12 years experience argued with me for more than a day to not change this code because he believed that there must be some reason why this code exists and he has a strong hunch that there must be some cases when the if part will get executed. He has no understanding of the code or any inclination to try to understand it, but he was strongly against changing it (borderline paranoia) because of a hunch he has no justification for having.
This is an example of same sort of mentality extended to programming. I see this sort of irrationality uncountable times when dealing with Indian software professionals. While I cannot claim that I haven't seen similar behavior from non-Indians, the difference is that I have seen it in more than 90% of Indian programmers.
^
@Lord Nemesis Regarding coding standards. I always insist(very strongly ) people to write comments / inline comments so that it may help those who are going to maintain. However I fail to understand their thought process against it. As if something is going from their own pockets.
and
explains every thing .
@Lord Nemesis Regarding coding standards. I always insist(very strongly ) people to write comments / inline comments so that it may help those who are going to maintain. However I fail to understand their thought process against it. As if something is going from their own pockets.
Because no one wants to listen to other any more. You dont need to go far, even here in TE General Section you will find people with really hardened opinions. That makes me wonder why is that even called a "discussion" forum when someone doesn't want discussion but affirmation to their points.
That said, the post says
So the Nehruvian way of socialism brought us to where we are now?
I kinda agree with the payment and "Dear Sir" thing, one thing most people forget to address is the population. With a billion population people are taught to survive at all cost be it saving money or buttering. At the risk of sounding controversial I think we need some sort of population control.
In my experience, I have found that things like not documenting code, or putting restrictions on code base access to be a product of thinking too much about their jobs. i.e. insecurity about their job. These people do not want their code to be easily understood or maintained by others because If it can be maintained by others, it implies that they are themselves replaceable.
rakesh_ic
Herald
People fail to understand the need to practice the process. They do not understand what a CMM lvl is.
They do not care if their codes are optimized or broken up into logical modules.
During the initial days of my career I had the opportunity to work in a culture that guided me more towards the path of process. Now I believe in process more than people. People can be replaced but not the process
The lack of critical thinking is evident in our society - eg just look at the people eat vegetarian food on Tuesdays and Saturdays. Nobody knows the reason. But as their parents/priests/'seniors' have told so, the so called educated people are following it blindly.
There may be some reason why it was started - but now it has become the replaced monkeys situation.
I have asked one of my colleague not to impose that on her child and if she really wants to do that - she should provide a reason for that to the child - why should they eat veg on Saturdays and No hair cut on Tuesdays etc !!
There may be some reason why it was started - but now it has become the replaced monkeys situation.
I have asked one of my colleague not to impose that on her child and if she really wants to do that - she should provide a reason for that to the child - why should they eat veg on Saturdays and No hair cut on Tuesdays etc !!
blr_p
Oracle
Absolutely agree. I pick what i listen to based on how skilled the critical reasoning is. when i start acting this way people say why are you being so negative or you are always complaining. The act of criticising invites personal attacks.
I remember when my cousins spent some time in India they took their child to a nursey and the principal said this place will kill her spirit. Too regimented. So they found another nursery.
why. many reasons.
the brits wanted indians that would be pliant but competent workers. when management changed this was considered a good thing. the aim of a school is to produce productive useful workers rather than citizens. must not rock the boat. management is easier so it follows management always wants to keep things quiet.
Asian culture itself ingrains respect for elders. I find it very difficult to argue with grey hair. Not because i cant do it but you think they would be smarter having lived longer. Still i challenge everybody regardless of the fall out. its amazing how little is known and how much is believed. Most people get upset at this point because you just showed them how little they really know. How dare you do that.
Finally, critial thinking involes a lot of research which we can't always do. critical about what. to slate something means you've studied the alternatives and realise nothing better exists or maybe you have not searched hard enough. So its not solely just an Indian thing but a lack of resources and time thing. If you have syllabi to get through and rooms exceeding 40 students or more the attention each student gets will be divided too.
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kidrow
Herald
Well, it's not just Indians that lack "critical thinking", the definition of which I'm not quite sure I understand fully - the author of the article seems to be speaking about respect for others, while this thread seems to be talking about having a scientific temper. If it's the latter, then most humans around the world can be said to lack "critical thinking". That's just the way it is.
People fail to understand the need to practice the process. They do not understand what a CMM lvl is.
They do not care if their codes are optimized or broken up into logical modules.
During the initial days of my career I had the opportunity to work in a culture that guided me more towards the path of process. Now I believe in process more than people. People can be replaced but not the process
See, that is the exact problem that we are talking about
.Somebody sets up a process and everybody else follows or expected to follow it blindly. Process should be modifiable and replaceable. Process should be questioned and should be able to withstand criticism to remain relevant. Process and CMM Levels are meaningless by themselves. They have meaning when they can continuously evolve to changes as a result of questioning that comes out of common sense and thinking of the people using it.
As a very simple example, lets say an office requires employees to flash their ID card before a scanner to open the door and they also have to show it to a security guard standing next to the door. The security guard is just ensuring that the ID card belongs to you and not somebody else. Sounds like a sane process.
Lets say some 10 years down the line, the office replaces all the card scanners with Bio-metric scanners. The additional check by security guard is no longer required because of the nature of the Bio-metrics, but yet this additional check will continue to go on because that has always been the process in place. If it is not questioned and doesn't evolve, process is nothing more than an overhead causing inefficiency in any system.
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rakesh_ic
Herald
None of the processes in the example I have typically quoted about the IT standards are stagnant. They evolve in time and are changing. Your comparison of my specifically quoted process against the evolution is incorrect.See, that is the exact problem that we are talking about
Somebody sets up a process and everybody else follows or expected to follow it blindly. Process should be modifiable and replaceable. Process should be questioned and should be able to withstand criticism to remain relevant. Process and CMM Levels are meaningless by themselves. They have meaning when they can continuously evolve to changes as a result of questioning that comes out of common sense and thinking of the people using it.
As a very simple example, lets say an office requires employees to flash their ID card before a scanner to open the door and they also have to show it to a security guard standing next to the door. The security guard is just ensuring that the ID card belongs to you and not somebody else. Sounds like a sane process.
Lets say some 10 years down the line, the office replaces all the card scanners with Bio-metric scanners. The additional check by security guard is no longer required because of the nature of the Bio-metrics, but yet this additional check will continue to go on because that has always been the process in place. If it is not question and doesn't evolve, process is nothing more than an overhead causing inefficiency in any system.
Respect and discipline are missing altogether. Insecurity and subsequent aggression are more prevalent than honesty and fearlessness.
The author has brought up couple of subjects including critical thinking, respect, courage to give feedback and courage to be receptive to feedback etc.
And we know the truth that for most of us. we can find all/some of these traits within and around us. However having said that these may be prevalent everywhere, it still remain important that we work on to improve at our end in whatever way feasible.
Yup
Exactly. It is not as if individuals are making choices. It is what is being imposed.
This. Zero % receptive to constructive feedback ... nor even to discussion.
I guess the term which we are looking for here is: Liberty?
On the "talking back" part, I don't really understand how that is "disrespecting" when all one wanted to do might be just clarify something.
But "Do unto others what you want others to do to you" is true.
There is also that serious problem with ancient culture. A small real life example. I noticed that even in our (new) congregation here a guy sitting together with a girl is frowned upon especially by the elders. There was one incident a few years ago in which i was forcibly pulled out from my seat. Needless to say, i was shocked. I consider it narrow-minded and many of us youth don't mind and do it anyway.
On the "talking back" part, I don't really understand how that is "disrespecting" when all one wanted to do might be just clarify something.
But "Do unto others what you want others to do to you" is true.
There is also that serious problem with ancient culture. A small real life example. I noticed that even in our (new) congregation here a guy sitting together with a girl is frowned upon especially by the elders. There was one incident a few years ago in which i was forcibly pulled out from my seat. Needless to say, i was shocked. I consider it narrow-minded and many of us youth don't mind and do it anyway.
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rdst_1
Juggernaut
Freedom also comes at a price. There is a way to make a point and I feel talking back to parents is definitely disrespectful. Most of the Indian parents go out of their way to make sure their children get everything that they didn't have in their childhood. If you really want to change someone's views then you can't force it on them, considering you yourself can't stand such views being forced on you.
Off late, I have come to believe it works in everyone's favor if you are diplomatic than outright arrogant even if you are right and the other person is wrong. And I can guarantee that's true for every country in the world and not just India. Nobody, anywhere in the world like to be told to their face that they are wrong.
I used to follow all silly rules like eating only vegetarian stuff on Tuesday's when I was younger. And I still won't talk back loudly to my father, but I believe actions speak louder than words and I just do what I want to do now. This very man allowed me to drop out of college and has now quit his job and starting a business with me. He let my brother pursue his dreams and never got on his back trying to get him to join an IT company after B.Tech and now my brother has become a game programmer and living his dream. I guess what I am trying to say is that you have to choose your battles.
And comparing parents with incompetent bosses is unfair IMO.
Off late, I have come to believe it works in everyone's favor if you are diplomatic than outright arrogant even if you are right and the other person is wrong. And I can guarantee that's true for every country in the world and not just India. Nobody, anywhere in the world like to be told to their face that they are wrong.
I used to follow all silly rules like eating only vegetarian stuff on Tuesday's when I was younger. And I still won't talk back loudly to my father, but I believe actions speak louder than words and I just do what I want to do now. This very man allowed me to drop out of college and has now quit his job and starting a business with me. He let my brother pursue his dreams and never got on his back trying to get him to join an IT company after B.Tech and now my brother has become a game programmer and living his dream. I guess what I am trying to say is that you have to choose your battles.
And comparing parents with incompetent bosses is unfair IMO.
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