Ferrari do it yet again

Status
Not open for further replies.
sunny27 said:
^^^He's an undeserving,hateful,loathsome,fugly,useless,talentless,gutless, cry-baby of a driver who's a disgrace to any team he joins. He arrived at Mclaren Mercedes after winning the championship with Renault and expected to be treated specially. He got a solid kick up his backside by Hamilton. Don't know why Ferrari chose Raikonen over Alonso, they could renew Raikonen's contract anyday.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I too hate the guts out of this guy( actually I hate all Spanish sports persons except Nadal :P ), but he is currently best driver on the Grid. Period.....
The only reason I even support him is because he is with Ferrari, but dude got a talent. He has proved it with competitive and uncompetitive cars in the past.
 
logistopath said:
Ferrari have been fined $100,000 for the team orders. Race positions would remain unchanged.

Ferrari fined $100,000 for team orders - GPUpdate.net
Click to expand...
This case is now been referred to the FIA world council and the team could be faced with further sanctions, the position though won't change.

Aloso is a bloody liar, after the race he states that he doesn't know anything, but if you hear the car-to-pit radio after the race Alonso asked his engineer whether Felipe is ok ?

Ferrari too are lying too, their spokesperson claims that it was a driver decision and the team wasn't involved in it:

1. if you hear Massa's car-to-pit radio just moments after the incident you would hear his race engineer apologizing to him.

2. Telemetry data will show that Massa did lift off (for those who can't see the obvious).

3. After the race Massa's engineer apologizes again and tells him that he will explain everything to him post race.

In my opinion Massa's contract was renewed under the condition that he would be the No.2 - under every circumstance

In my opinion both the Ferrari's must be disqualified, Massa cause he was hand in glove for the incident. They should be handed a hefty fine, not $100000 and banned for a couple of races. They were left off the hook last time they did something similar reasoning that they didn't have rules in black and white, but a slap on the wrist is not enough. FIA need to be strict so that this is never repeated.

EDIT Link: http://www.planet-f1.com/news/3213/6279027/Ferrari-Handed-Fine-Results-Stand
 
Of course they'll claim it wasnt a team decision, because if they don't then they're admitting to team orders which were banned in 2002. Like it or not, team orders have always been and always will be part of the sport, although not all of them are as clear as this.

There is no point in having teams if you can't draw some advantage from it.

Anyway, lets see how Ferrari defend themselves. I personally think it'll be quite easy for them to put the whole thing on the driver.
 
abbY said:
This case is now been referred to the FIA world council and the team could be faced with further sanctions, the position though won't change.

Aloso is a bloody liar, after the race he states that he doesn't know anything, but if you hear the car-to-pit radio after the race Alonso asked his engineer whether Felipe is ok ?

Ferrari too are lying too, their spokesperson claims that it was a driver decision and the team wasn't involved in it:

1. if you hear Massa's car-to-pit radio just moments after the incident you would hear his race engineer apologizing to him.

2. Telemetry data will show that Massa did lift off (for those who can't see the obvious).

3. After the race Massa's engineer apologizes again and tells him that he will explain everything to him post race.

In my opinion Massa's contract was renewed under the condition that he would be the No.2 - under every circumstance

In my opinion both the Ferrari's must be disqualified, Massa cause he was hand in glove for the incident. They should be handed a hefty fine, not $100000 and banned for a couple of races. They were left off the hook last time they did something similar reasoning that they didn't have rules in black and white, but a slap on the wrist is not enough. FIA need to be strict so that this is never repeated.
Click to expand...
I know people like the conspiracy theories,(Specially guy like Horner who first needs to sort out his own team ) but that is plain rubbish.

Driver like Massa would never sign upto be a No.2 driver specially in his situation where he almost won the championship for Ferrari just 1 season back.

There are plenty of teams which would have swopped him up happily to be the primary driver for their teams.

I am very sure even he knows he has to play second fiddle this season with the position he was half way through the season. There is virtually no chance of him winning this championship even before this race began.

See there is little doubt about the team orders, but there is no way FIA will punish driver standings in any way.

Ferrari knew that it does not really make any difference as far as constructor's championship goes. But everyone knows its not as important as World Driver Championship and to retain that illusive No.1.

The worst thing that can happen is the loss of team points for constructor's championship which Ferrari will gladly accept along with $100,000 fine :P

Alonso can be ruthless but any driver has very little choice or say in matters like these. Its team bosses which play biggest roles here. Bashing him is simply pointless.

At least no other driver suffered like Ferrari drivers have in last 3-4 races where they lost out because of real cheaters like Hamilton or got taken out by stupid moves.

Does this leave black mark on the today's 1-2? Obviously it does.

Will Massa have to play supporting role this season, obviously he will have to.

Will he do it? He will even if it hurts him personally. Any driver in his position will.
 
1. if you hear Massa's car-to-pit radio just moments after the incident you would hear his race engineer apologizing to him.

2. Telemetry data will show that Massa did lift off (for those who can't see the obvious).

3. After the race Massa's engineer apologizes again and tells him that he will explain everything to him post race.
Click to expand...

1 & 3 - Did Rob Smedley specifically say sorry for making you move over? I think it was more of a generic sorry, in which case they could easily claim he was apologising for something else.

And telemetry is the easier bit, because it was Massa's foot on the gas pedal.

I'm not denying team orders here, they were clearly there :P Everybody knows. I'm just interested in knowing how Ferrari is going to get past the technicalities. I'm sure they wouldn't have done something like this without being completely sure their backs were covered. Maybe that was the reason there was a 20 laps gap between Alonso asserting that he was quicker and the actual communication to Massa.
 
tifosi said:
1 & 3 - Did Rob Smedley specifically say sorry for making you move over? I think it was more of a generic sorry, in which case they could easily claim he was apologising for something else.

And telemetry is the easier bit, because it was Massa's foot on the gas pedal.

I'm not denying team orders here, they were clearly there :P Everybody knows. I'm just interested in knowing how Ferrari is going to get past the technicalities. I'm sure they wouldn't have done something like this without being completely sure their backs were covered. Maybe that was the reason there was a 20 laps gap between Alonso asserting that he was quicker and the actual communication to Massa.
Click to expand...
Interesting points but clearly there has to be a way for all this.. if ferrari do manage to get away from all this, then it would be a mockery of the FIA rules... Massa was robbed and its clear they take Fernando as their number one driver... at the end of the day its a sad thing which is not helping F1 one bit.. hopefully the FIA can really put the pedal on Ferrari and make them punish heavily.. knowing Ferrari nothing will happen to them... hope i am wrong...
 
Shripad said:
I know people like the conspiracy theories,(Specially guy like Horner who first needs to sort out his own team ) but that is plain rubbish.

Driver like Massa would never sign upto be a No.2 driver specially in his situation where he almost won the championship for Ferrari just 1 season back.

There are plenty of teams which would have swopped him up happily to be the primary driver for their teams.

I am very sure even he knows he has to play second fiddle this season with the position he was half way through the season. There is virtually no chance of him winning this championship even before this race began.

See there is little doubt about the team orders, but there is no way FIA will punish driver standings in any way.

Ferrari knew that it does not really make any difference as far as constructor's championship goes. But everyone knows its not as important as World Driver Championship and to retain that illusive No.1.

The worst thing that can happen is the loss of team points for constructor's championship which Ferrari will gladly accept along with $100,000 fine :P

Alonso can be ruthless but any driver has very little choice or say in matters like these. Its team bosses which play biggest roles here. Bashing him is simply pointless.

At least no other driver suffered like Ferrari drivers have in last 3-4 races where they lost out because of real cheaters like Hamilton or got taken out by stupid moves.

Does this leave black mark on the today's 1-2? Obviously it does.

Will Massa have to play supporting role this season, obviously he will have to.

Will he do it? He will even if it hurts him personally. Any driver in his position will.
Click to expand...
emotional tifosi eh ?

u must b kidding when u said Massa had no chance at the championship, eyebrow man and Massa were seperated by 32 points before the race. If Ferrari didn't intervne the diff would be 24 points, , a race win = 25 points and we have 8 races remaining i.e 200 points.

Alonso has made more mistakes than massa this year.

Give me one good reason why Massa has to play supporting role this season.

lastly no driver would do this more than once as opposed to Shirpad's clam in his last sentence.

@ Shripad before claiming it as a conspiracy theory answer these questions:

1. if you hear Massa's car-to-pit radio just moments after the incident you would hear his race engineer apologizing to him. Why did he ?

2. Telemetry data will show that Massa did lift off (for those who can't see the obvious). go to you tube or try to catchup with the race rather than basing comments based on breaking news.

3. After the race Massa's engineer apologizes again and tells him that he will explain everything to him post race. Why did he ?

4. Aloso is a bloody liar, after the race he states that he doesn't know anything, but if you hear the car-to-pit radio after the race Alonso asked his engineer whether Felipe is ok ? Why did he ?

If Fernando was genuinely quick why didn't did he not try to pass Felipe fair and square with 20 odd laps remaining.

 
Ferrari were fined $100,000 by stewards for the use of illegal 'team orders' in winning the German Formula One Grand Prix at Hockenheim.

The FIA also said in a statement that the case would be referred to its world motorsport council for further consideration.

The team, whose drivers finished first and second after Brazilian Felipe Massa allowed Spaniard Fernando Alonso to overtake him, were found to have breached both the sporting regulations and code.

Article 39.1 of the sporting regulations states that "team orders which interfere with the result of the race are prohibited".

Reuters
Click to expand...

Well something nice finally and i think they will strip alonso of his win as well...
 
@ppl who suggest that Felipe is dammed driver who will have to bow down as the second driver / it is still not clear whether Ferrari did something wrong can read this

Ten Reasons Why Ferrari Were Wrong | Planet F1 | Formula One | Features | Editorial...

If Fernando was faster let him overtake on the track, overtaking is a skill and not charity. Button was stuck behind Kobayashi in Valencia inspite of having a car which was over 1 second faster per lap.

@Ferrari next time on try to intentionally delay Felipe during his pitstop atleast so that it is not obvious, I rate Fernando highly as a driver, but he is not a true sportsman. He wants to be gifted the win on days when he can't do it by himself.Two races ago that Alonso jumped upon his high horse and castigated the Valencia race stewards for "manipulating" the result. Oh the irony of hindsight
 
^^ and this one bit was funny from the link u posted..

ten reasons why the writer is a hamilton fan> ha,ha
Click to expand...

and also this..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2010/07/team_orders_rule_ties_f1_in_kn.html

Just because Ferrari effectively asked Massa to let Alonso win, was that necessarily the wrong thing to do? Is it right that the F1 rules ban team orders? Did Ferrari even technically break the rule?

There are so many difficult areas here.

First of all, technically, Ferrari did not order Massa to let Alonso win, not in so many words.

Secondly, what does the rule actually mean? Did what Ferrari did interfere with the race result? How can anyone possibly know? They could, if they wanted, argue that Alonso, who had been significantly faster than Massa all weekend, was going to get past eventually. Or that they didn't want to risk a collision between their two drivers by letting them race.
Click to expand...
 
abbY said:
emotional tifosi eh ?

u must b kidding when u said Massa had no chance at the championship, eyebrow man and Massa were seperated by 32 points before the race. If Ferrari didn't intervne the diff would be 24 points, , a race win = 25 points and we have 7 races remaining.

Alonso has made more mistakes than massa this year.

Give me one good reason why Massa has to play supporting role this season.

lastly no driver would do this more than once as opposed to Shirpad's clam in his last sentence.

@ Shripad before claiming it as a conspiracy theory answer these questions:

1. if you hear Massa's car-to-pit radio just moments after the incident you would hear his race engineer apologizing to him. Why did he ?

2. Telemetry data will show that Massa did lift off (for those who can't see the obvious). go to you tube or try to catchup with the race rather than basing comments based on breaking news.

3. After the race Massa's engineer apologizes again and tells him that he will explain everything to him post race. Why did he ?

4. Aloso is a bloody liar, after the race he states that he doesn't know anything, but if you hear the car-to-pit radio after the race Alonso asked his engineer whether Felipe is ok ? Why did he ?

If Fernando was genuinely quick why didn't did he not try to pass Felipe fair and square with 20 odd laps remaining.
Click to expand...
Did you read my post?

I have no doubt about team orders in this race or for this entire season from now on. I know very well that Ferrari management told Massa to back off indirectly (but clearly :P )

Ferrari does not have absolutely dominant car this season, so that 32 point difference between their two drivers is huge. Only 5 drivers have chance at world championship from now on, and they are current top 5. I will bet any amount on this. It is fine to dwell on statistical possibilities, but the fact of real world are cold and harsh.

And about your point 4 and end of your post, its because both of them are more sensible than Vettel and Weber. At this point, Redbull should have clear lead over all other teams in both drivers and constructor's championship. They blew it, and they blew chances of other teams at times this season by stupid moves.

Didnt you hear what both Button and even Hamilton said few races back? Even they would go wheel to wheel banging with each other as its stupid and too risky to do so with your team mate. Usually there is mutual understanding within team and team mates of what is acceptable and what is not. And when that does not happen some teams end up paying huge price for it.

Drivers and teams go to extreme lengths to win, Hamilton did this, Fernando did this with Renault, Schumacher did this in past. Is it right? No, but its part of the F1 and all team sports, has always been.
 
@ Kauzy - That's exactly what I'm saying. It's down to technicalities.

On hindsight, if I were in Massa shoes, I would have pretended to run wide into a corner or something like that, instead of stupidly slowing down at the exit of a corner :P
 
Team orders are bad,I agree.

For ferrari at this point its vital for its championship chances.

They couldn't done more subtly ,like 'save fuelâ„¢' , 'reduce revs,save engineâ„¢'.

Its not as if ferrari are the only ones who does it,they seem to be a bit open about it.

Everyone does it every time (2007,2008,2009).
 
^^ Exactly.

Its just that when Ferrari does it, it usually ends up being a bigger issue.

There is too much riding for them to not manipulate their own team drivers.

Remember that Kimi let Massa through in 2008( was it china or japan i dont recall, mostly china) for the same reason, to give him shot at championship. We all know the crashgate, then in exactly this same race in 2008 (Germany) when Heikki let Hamilton through.

Hamilton was told not to race with Alonso in Monaco the year before.

List is endless.

Regardless what the drivers say, the real racing is between teams. After certain point in the season, if there is substantial gap between two drivers, team is definitely going to start focusing on the dominant driver. If you check all such cases, they usually tend to happen after half the season is over.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom