India-Pakistan current war like situation discussion (Pahalgham)

[blr_p]

That is another problem we have on our hands. We continue to "think" all these years even after so much bloodshed and more to come. We are great thinkers. I give you that.

You make it sound like no progress has been made over the last twenty years.

It's time to stop thinking and come to the realisation that it is indeed binary. Either you stop it once and for all or you cannot.

Let's look at the thinking over the years. After 26/11 the main argument and you can see the comments from that thread is we cannot do anything ie. respond as it would affect our growth rate. So not doing anything was the correct thing.

But after Uri, Pulwama & Pahalgam. Now we say we must respond but it has to be short, sharp & punitive. We cannot get into war as it would affect our growth rate.

What changed? Our capabilities and with that came an increasing confidence which is apparent with how audacious each response has been.

It is really amazing to hear the air marshall casually mention how we hit specfic buildings with remarakable precision from standoff distances. That is like hitting the bull from hundreds of kms away. Incredible.

You mean to tell me this amounts to nothing?

That technically speaking there is no difference between our approach after 26/11 compared to the near present.

Of course there is. As time goes on the capabilities gap is only going to get wider. For now the Paks think they can counter us but that ability will weaken with time. And if so can they continue to be as brazen? There has to come a reckoning at some point in their society. Only then can we start to see a change and not before.

Then that objective isn't ending terrorism. We are all delusional if we have any objective other than that.

Put this in the category of unsolvable problems. One thing most governments are good at is managing unsolvable problems.

Can we live in a crime free society? No but with effective law enforcement and a justice system that delivers you can reduce the rate of crime.

Can we live in a poverty free society. No, but we can arrange the system so opportunity is available and most can take advantage. Those that cannot will have to be carried along through welfare or similar.

If you accept we cannot be crime free or poverty free then why can't you accept we won't be terror free?

I was listening to an Israeli prof talk about this and he said in a hundred years we will still be fighting against terror but the impact will be much reduced to the point it doesn't matter anymore. Your progress will continue unimpeded.

We're at that point now with our improved capabilities isn't it. Nobody is going to pull their investments out of India as a result of the shadow boxing we got into. But back in 2008 that's exactly what people were afraid of.

 

[TEUser2K1]

Gaurav Arya - More of a comedian. Can't take anything he says seriously.

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/trends/retired-army-officer-abuses-iran-s-foreign-minister-in-viral-video-sparks-diplomatic-row-13020152.html

If it's the same guy being talked about, didn't he score very bad points at wrong time. It even got reported in Iran...

 

[Emperor]

You got one more chance to blame Hindi & Hindi Speaker.. keep it up ...

 

[smAsh]

@Emperor Please do not bring language controversy in this discussion. India is a multilingual country and every language is equally important.

 

[Emperor]

@Emperor Please do not bring language controversy in this discussion. India is a multilingual country and every language and is equally important.

did they think so while posting? read their reply here and few other post & you will came to know their mindset... we here on TE with big heart welcome all language and never decrement but here on TE they are doing it purposefully since long time and even in this thread too .. did they forget it's multilingual country or it's just for others

 

[mayank11280]

@Emperor Please do not bring language controversy in this discussion. India is a multilingual country and every language is equally important.

I think it is fair to point out what other member said unnecessarily.

Read above replies by another member who famously is one of those polemical persons who has to bring in random things to make arguments.

Hindi was never being talked about until that person said: he didn’t like someone talking because host moved to speak more Hindi. The next line follows his problem was mixing of politics and military.

What was the need to bring in Hindi? That’s an unnecessary diversion and could have been avoided. And it should be pointed out @Emperor was not the one to start it, just like India was not the one to start the current conflict with Pakistan. He was just defending the sanctity of the debate from unnecessary diversions.

 

[blr_p]

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/trends/retired-army-officer-abuses-iran-s-foreign-minister-in-viral-video-sparks-diplomatic-row-13020152.html

If it's the same guy being talked about, didn't he score very bad points at wrong time. It even got reported in Iran...

That's quite a statement coming from Arya. I've never seen him be this abusive of any foreign representative.

I don't understand why he'd refer to the Iranian minister like this

He's doing it for clicks?

 

[mayank11280]

did they think so while posting? read their reply here and few other post & you will came to know their mindset... we here on TE with big heart welcome all language and never decrement but here on TE they are doing it purposefully since long time and even in this thread too .. did they forget it's multilingual country or it's just for others

I am seeing a lot of hypocrisy in this thread that’s why I posted that meme.

A person who says authority must be followed at all the time was criticising Biden when Biden was President. But defends criticism of Trump because he is the President now. Then calls non-you-know-which-party governments in states bad. We all know what is the ideological agenda this person has when he talks about obeying the authority.

Then unnecessary calling out of language by this person was weird. People should leave their biases aside and talk on the arguments.

 

[animishticomb]

@Emperor Please do not bring language controversy in this discussion. India is a multilingual country and every language is equally important.

You are bringing it in and not all languages are equally important. There is only 1 language followed by the central government apart from English which is a fact. Of course regional languages are important too.

 

[nRiTeCh]

Can we live in a crime free society? No but with effective law enforcement and a justice system that delivers you can reduce the rate of crime.

Can we live in a poverty free society. No, but we can arrange the system so opportunity is available and most can take advantage. Those that cannot will have to be carried along through welfare or similar.

Agreed.

If you accept we cannot be crime free or poverty free then why can't you accept we won't be terror free?

But if we eradicate pakistan we are actually killing the hive or epicenter and breeding ground of terrorism and we can claim that at least 50% of terrorism has been killed and now the rest of the war can be fought together with all the countries because every country might have terrorists but just in a hideout unlike pakistan which is a legal open world for them to preach and practice terrorism effectively.
Pakistan is basically India's major headache which the world is aware since 1950s. So, even though if someone really wants to do something they couldn't, in fact they wont unless they are directly affected they will back us upfront and not via sms tweets and a 5 min telephone call.

Now, Can we live in a terror free society. NO, but we certainly can curb it and definitely do it and ease further operations by eradicating pak.

 

[blr_p]

But if we eradicate pakistan..

Fantasy time

Cure worse than the disease.

Binary thinking.

I've been having this debate for over a decade on def boards where people really believe we can get rid of terror. In doing so missing things we can really do to address the problem because of insistence on absolutes

I will admit one thing though. Some things people said should be done got done. I remember a discussion from 2006 where most said the Balakote training camp needed to be taken out. And it happened in 2019.

 

[nRiTeCh]

Cure worse than the disease.

You have been emphasizing on this, can you elaborate this statement in detail?
I did mentioned its not a 100% cure and we can never eradicate terrorism fully but we can at least have 40% relief from the disease and the rest disease can be fought collectively because the big daddy is out now.

 

[blr_p]

You have been emphasizing on this, can you elaborate this statement in detail?

If by eradicate you mean militarily defeat then it won't work. We know that already.

By cure worse than disease I'm saying we do not want to become an occupying force.

In 1971, the mukthi bahini was ready to step in and look after things. All we did was topple the regime and were done in two weeks.

There is no such equivalent in Pakistan or let's say it has to organically develop on it's own.

 

[TEUser2K1]

USA DoE plane in Pak...

https://idrw.org/u-s-department-of-energy-deploys-aircraft-to-pakistan-following-indian-strikes-on-nuclear-facilities/

‘Didn't know what is there, didn’t hit’: Air Marshal denies rumours of action at Pakistan's Kirana Hills - ‘Didn't know what is there, didn’t hit’: Air Marshal denies rumours of action at Pakistan's Kirana Hills BusinessToday

Military analysts have for years pointed to the Kirana Hills as a possible underground nuclear weapons storage site. Satellite images reveal reinforced tunnels and multiple concealed entrances, suggesting the area holds considerable strategic importance.

www.businesstoday.in

'We Did Not Hit Kirana Hills': India Dismisses Rumours Of Targeting Pakistan's 'Nuke Site' - News18

Social media has been abuzz with chatter around how India may have hit Kirana Hills in Pakistan, which is close to the Sargodha Air Base and possibly "stores nuclear weapons".

www.news18.com

Evolving curiously...

 

[ibose]

You make it sound like no progress has been made over the last twenty years.

And yet, here we are with Pahalgam. How is it any different from the terrorist strikes in Mumbai, Delhi, etc. from the last twenty years ? We keep going in circles.
We definitely have made progress in stopping terrorist threats as we may not even know how many such attacks have been nipped in the bud. But then they are not going to stop and every now and then, one will slip through. It is almost as if you are looking over your shoulder your entire life. Even one life lost to terrorism will undo everything we have worked so hard for.
We have to be proactive. There is no other way.

We cannot get into war as it would affect our growth rate.

I keep saying continuing the precision strikes until you destroy all the terrorist infrastructure and you keep saying war. Do you think terrorism has no impact on India's economy ? Of course War will have more impact but for terrorism it isn't zero.

It is really amazing to hear the air marshall casually mention how we hit specfic buildings with remarakable precision from standoff distances. That is like hitting the bull from hundreds of kms away. Incredible.

Of course, its incredible. So why stop when we have these capabilities ?

You mean to tell me this amounts to nothing?

Yes, all of these achievements and sacrifices will amount to nothing if there is another Pahalgam down the line. No correct that, its not a question of if but when. The sooner we realize that, the better.

Put this in the category of unsolvable problems. One thing most governments are good at is managing unsolvable problems.

Why ? What are we so much afraid of ?

Can we live in a crime free society? No but with effective law enforcement and a justice system that delivers you can reduce the rate of crime.

Can we live in a poverty free society. No, but we can arrange the system so opportunity is available and most can take advantage. Those that cannot will have to be carried along through welfare or similar.

If you accept we cannot be crime free or poverty free then why can't you accept we won't be terror free?

Right. Terror free = Utopia. I can understand equating one social issue against another but I cannot fathom how terrorism gets equated to one. This also shows what value we attach to Indian lives.

 

[mayank11280]

PM Modi to address nation at 8 pm after India-Pak ceasefire

This will be Prime Minister Narendra Modi's first address to the nation after India launched Operation Sindoor on May 7 to destroy nine terror infrastructures in Pakistan and Pakistan-Occupied-Kashmir (POK).

www.indiatoday.in

 

[TEUser2K1]

‘No Kashmir mediation, only PoK return on table’: India after Donald Trump's offer

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/no-kashmir-mediation-only-pok-return-on-table-india-after-donald-trumps-offer-101746966636312.html

 

[solo_wing]

Going through strong opinions on if we should keep hitting Pakistanis and destroy it once for all.

Guys, it is not that simple.
Pakistan is not Gaza.

Pakistan has enough support from Islamic Countries , China and Turkey ( also muslim country ) and to some extent USA too . To bleed India economically .

We have much more to loose in this fight.

I strongly believe in @blr_p strategy he shared of hammer and anvil and pray for a miracle. Till then keep taking measures to also hurt them.

 

[adder]

Our DG said that he was not aware of Kirana hills being a nuclear storage facility and despite videos of it being hit he denied hitting it or didn't even show the slides yesterday.

I think that strike was below the belt to send a message.

 

[ibose]

Our DG said that he was not aware of Kirana hills being a nuclear storage facility and despite videos of it being hit he denied hitting it or didn't even show the slides yesterday.

I think that strike was below the belt to send a message.

I keep reading that this was the proverbial nail in the coffin which had those rats scurrying for a ceasefire. We may never know the truth but I would like to have the satisfaction to think this indeed happened.