Logitech Momo - Strange Force Feedback In F1 2002

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kidrow

kidrow

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Dear all,

I recently bought a Logitech Momo racing wheel [black with rubber grip]. In F1 2002, I found that with the Force Feedback set to a +ve value, the wheel hardly offers any resistance & 'slips & slides'. However, the response from the wheel is consistent. The feel of the track surface [or is it the engine vibrating?] is experienced throughout. I can feel the rumble strips, as well as a few shocks as the car downshifts, or around turns.

Upon setting the FF value to a -ve one, I found that though the handling greatly improved [no slipping & sliding], the feel of the track [or vibrating engine?] is lost on turns. It's as if the FF has been switched off while turning the wheel. During the straight runs, the track feel [or vibrating engine?] comes back on.

The ideal effect would be a combination of the two - the consistent feel of the +ve value & the resistance/stiffness and control of the -ve value

I'm currently using Logitech Wingman Profiler v5.02.116, with all settings set to default. In-game settings are set to default as well. The OS is XP SP3.

Please help. I'd heard so much about the wheel's FF but I'm not entirely happy atm. Thanks.
 
In sims using the ISI physics engine such as F1 2002, there is a known issue with Logitech wheels specifically where you have to set the force feedback to a negative value because a positive value will yield too much resistence while cornering which is what you are experiencing.
Strange that you actually like this effect, I can't even steer the wheel it fights me so much :P. So just set it to a negative value, that's how it's supposed to be :).

But if you really want to, you can achieve a combined effect but that requires editing the force feedback settings in your .PLR files. Very complicated stuff and you will have to do a lot of reading on the matter but you can achieve some really amazing effects this way.
Just head over to NoGrip Racing forums and ask someone to send you their revised force feedback settings.

And since you are into F1 simracing, I suggest you ditch F1 2002 and get F1 Challenge 99-02 which is basically an updated, more polished version of the same game.
Also try some of the many F1 mods for rFactor. If you have been playing just F1 2002 all this time, I can safely say you will be blown away :D.

Do you play other sims as well or just F1? Add me on MSN.
 
Thanks for your reply Saumil.

You probably didnt get me. I like thw car handling with the -ve values much better, but the force feedback is lacking while turning. In fact even with +ve values, there is no resistance to turns as you say. Rather the car slips n slides into the turns. Here again there is hardly any resistance to the turns, but at least I can feel the wheel vibrate n jerk while turninig n downshifting.

Does the left LED on your wheel come on bright without turning on the external power. In my case, it flickers when only receiving power from the usb. It comes on brighter only after switching the external power. Could my usb port be an issue? Maybe the wheel unit is not receiving the required power?

In device manager, I have all the 4 entries under the human interface devices. But there is a 5th unknown device entry which my system seems to recognize, but fails to properly install. I have re-installed the software a few times, but no luck. Could this be the reson?

Does the Momo have separate motors for the 'sideways' movement? If so, then maybe they are not working, n it's a hardware issue after all.

I have just started gaming, so I'm completely new to sims. But I do intend to enhance my skill, as n when time permits.

Sorry I got to rush to work now. Do reply. I'll check back in the evening.

Thanks a lot.
 
kidrow said:
You probably didnt get me. I like thw car handling with the -ve values much better, but the force feedback is lacking while turning. In fact even with +ve values, there is no resistance to turns as you say. Rather the car slips n slides into the turns. Here again there is hardly any resistance to the turns, but at least I can feel the wheel vibrate n jerk while turninig n downshifting.
Click to expand...
In Logitech Profiler, make sure centering spring is enabled and set at a reasonable percentage.
This centering spring is responsible for generating resistance forces while cornering and maybe you have it disabled or set too low.

kidrow said:
Does the left LED on your wheel come on bright without turning on the external power. In my case, it flickers when only receiving power from the usb. It comes on brighter only after switching the external power. Could my usb port be an issue? Maybe the wheel unit is not receiving the required power?
Click to expand...
This is perfectly normal.
 
Thanks for your replies, Saumil.

Yes, I've fiddled with the settings for the profiler as well as the in game settings. I've tried many permutations & combinations, but the result is the same. If I had to describe the effect better, I'd say it's as if the Rumble is on but not the FF.

I did try running the game in a virtual pc to isolate the problem. I could use the wheel, but there was no FF at all. So that didn't help.

Tried re-installing the HIDs as well as the USB drivers. My device manager has these under Human Interface Devices -
Logitech Momo Racing (HID)
Logitech Momo Racing USB
Logitech Virtual Hid Device
Logitech Virtual Hid Device
Unknown Device
The 1st 4 entries are normal whereas the 5th is something Windows will detect every time I try installing the logitech profiler (This was not the case in the virtual PC - Only the top 4 entries were present). Could this be a problem?

I've practically run out of ideas. I'll try the wheel on my cousin's laptop whenever he pays me a visit or go in for a clean install. Hopefully I'll be able to isolate the problem & determine whether it is software or hardware. Then it'll probably be a trip to the Logitech service centre.
 
F1 2002 is really old and maybe it isn't that well supported anymore by newer drivers.
I suggest you try playing GTR 2 and see if you face the same problem. It's a new sim based on a much more recent version of the ISI physics engine.

You can download the demo if you don't have the full game.
 
Hey Saumil, thanks for sticking around. I need all the help I can get. I apologize for my delayed responses, but my job is keeping me busy.

I did try the rFactor demo as you had earlier suggested. Yep! Loved it! :hap2: The sense of speed is awesome, & you really get the feel of handling a fast machine. But again, the response from the wheel is much the same. So on that count, there's still no breakthrough. :(

Will try the gtr2 demo, as well as tweaking the plr files in f1 2002, as you had suggested.

I have a pretty old PC & it's not even a gaming one at that. I was going to tune it towards greater gaming performance - GPU, Ram, Hdd et al. - once I had my momo. Cos I'd been looking forward to this wheel, given the rave reviews. But where its at now, I don't feel any justification in spending for an upgrade.

Maybe I'm expecting a bit too much. But again I'd come across so many users who swore by the FF in the wheel, many saying that it is actually a struggle when cranked up to full. You too have attested to this previously. So again it makes me think that I'm not expecting too much.

I'm contemplating dashing off an email to Logitech about my experience with the wheel. At least I'll know what their response is.

Will get back to you as to what happens next. Ciao. Thanks!
 
Btw, the wheel won't always fight you while cornering. Only when the front wheels are regaining any grip they may have lost during initial turn-in and then also only for a moment or two.
You will feel somewhat of a wobble and a jerk as the wheel tries to snap into position. Kinda difficult to explain :S.
 
Hmmm... But it should be harder to go into a turn at high speed i.e. the wheel should offer resistance while turning , especially at f1 speeds, right?
Instead I can easily 'slide' into the turns.

Oh well, another peculiar thing which occurred yesterday. Before, when I used to switch on the Power & the PC had booted up, my wheel would turn all by itself all the way to the left & lock up. It would remain at that.

What it did yesterday [& since] was - full turn to the right till locking up, full turn to the left till locking up, again a full turn to the right, a turn towards the left again but it gets 'stopped' before reaching the centre position, goes slightly towards the right & rests at around a 60 degree angle.

Ever since it did that, the FF has improved slightly, though not by much. So now I'm wondering whether there's a burn-in period - maybe x no of hours of driving - before the wheel reaches its max potential? Fingers crossed.
 
Oh! Well it doesn't really do a good job of calibrating itself then, lol. Coz it can't seem to come back to the center. & I'd started thinking that I do have a breakthrough! I think I'll just take the wheel to Logitech & let them have a look. Will keep you posted. Ciao.
 
My MOMO does this on powerup:
Move right uptil full lock - Return to center - That's it.

I think it depends on ones FFB settings as well. Try powering it up with your PC powered on but not booted into Windows.
 
Hey Saumil, its been a while. Was caught up in office work. & then there was my cousin's engagement. & some internet connectivity issues.

Anyway, I still haven't made much headway amidst all of this. But I just thought I'd give you an update:

The Kaspersky virus removal tool detected tmber8.dll on my system & identified it as a 'game thief' trojan. I've quarantined it. But ever since, the Logitech virtual hid device entries in device manager have disappeared. I did try reinstalling the profiler. The entries appeared after this but only until the next reboot. The wheel is still detected by windows & is present as a game controller, & it still works with ff. But then .... Any ideas?

I still have the following entries -
Logitech Momo Racing (HID)
Logitech Momo Racing USB

A member at the SimRacingWorld forums seemed to suggest that ISi based games' ff is flawed, & recommended that I try LFS. I did try that but though the implementation is different, I've found the handling to be unreal.

I will be setting up a dual boot next, & install the wheel n games on a freah install.

Thanks for all your help. Will keep updating my progress. [however slow]

Bye. Thanks.
 
kidrow said:
A member at the SimRacingWorld forums seemed to suggest that ISi based games' ff is flawed, & recommended that I try LFS. I did try that but though the implementation is different, I've found the handling to be unreal.
Click to expand...
Yes, the FFB in ISI sims is basically canned effects that feel nice at first but have little to do with the actual forces that are conveyed via the steering column when driving a real car.

LFS generates these forces accurately but they feel unreal as you said because you are sitting inside your house on a chair which is in a fixed position so the human brain has trouble associating with these forces at first.
 
Thanks for the reply, Saumil - quick as usual.

I think I'll race a bit more in LFS to get used to it & then I'll probably have a better idea of what's going on. I'm confused about the various patches though. [U to Z] Should I download them separately? Currently, my LFS version is S2 Alpha v0.5

What are your thoughts on the rFactor realfeel plugin? Do you recommend I try it out? & if yes, how do I use it?

Lastly, any ideas about the missing device manager entries?

Thanks a million.
 
I personally haven't tried it, but the rFactor RealFeel plugin is highly recommended by almost everyone.
It basically makes rFactor FFB behave like LFS so you can always tell what your wheels are doing and when they are just about to lose grip.

And the latest version of LFS is S2 Alpha Z. You only ever need the latest one.

kidrow said:
Lastly, any ideas about the missing device manager entries?
Click to expand...
Nope, no idea :(.
 
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