Looking for a home UPS that is smart

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Where the heck are you getting these insanely optimistic LiIon figures? I think the new wave of Li marketing is unleashed in full force.

And ? you think a 3k cycle count is unrealistic

I picked the graphs off the video linked. He got them off the spec sheet. That video is four years old btw.

heh, you're thinking of mobile and LiIon. Don't do that. These are LiFePO4. Different chemistry. Much heavier with lower energy density than you find in phones. The up side is the higher cycle count unlike what you get with mobile

I think the new wave of Li marketing is unleashed in full force.

Better than LA marketing that relies on ignorance of de-rating as well as cycle count. They don't even mention these parameters any more in the latest brochures.

If it really had 1/2 the TCO of lead acid, you would see corporates, who have no issues in large initial investment unlike us common folk, all switch rto li-ion for their backups.

Who says they won't but for a prior investment in LA. When that finishes you will see them switch. Keep in mind these corporates buy banks and do not discharge much. Look at the LA graph. If you don't discharge more than 40% you are already in the 2000 cycles range. Meaning buy bigger batteries, don't use them much then they last longer ?

That is why i was oversizing my requirement unlike the common folk. The problem isn't people cannot afford more. They can. It's ignorance. The seller will always recommend something cheaper and be assured a sale than risk losing it because he quoted the right thing for more. Undersize not right size let alone over size.

I visited two homes recently and it amazed me how people had to run around switching things off because the UPS tripped when the power went off (!) That is ridiculous, its as if there is no UPS

A family of four. 600VA UPS with a 150AH instabrite. 2 LCD TV's, four lights, two fans for two hours. They've had that setup for ten years now. That's a max load of 400W, one extra light or fan and it trips. Now if i say they should have upgraded their UPS and got an extra battery they would say that isn't necessary. Course its necessary but anyone who recommends it will be considered a cheat because these people don't know better. And they have friends with similar setups and nobody got more.

The regalia's max load is just 900W, not as high as the Cruze's 1600W but i think i can live with it.

And LA batteries won't give you 800 deep discharge (100%) cycles. Less than 500 maybe (2-3 years at most). So now you can say it's 3 times as expensive as Li !

The LA graph is for Trojan batteries. Its credible given exide tall tubulars can get about a 1000 cycles at 80% DOD

 

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My nearly 9 year old exide EL series is almost completly dead now.

Got a 95 percent plus efficiency 5kw solar inverter, will be installing 4 x Exide c10 150ah solar batteries which is heavier then luminous 200ah batteries. Best quote i got was 15k per battery.

I tried looking at lithium batteries but currently, it is to expensive. In a few years when it drops in price it makes sense. I would rather spend that money on solar panels. The ultimate Lithium battery is the LTO chemistry based one which have a life of about 15000 cycles, even after which you will still have 70 to 80% life left. Currently the cost for 12v 200ah x 4 costs 1.6lakh for chinese made ones in china+ shipping via sea and customs and agent fees will make it cost 3lakh. good ones like toshiba costs $700/1kw which is equivalent to a 12v 84ah battery, even lithium Ion costs about Rs 25k/kw, assuming one doesn't get hit with customs.

Do the math. How many lead acids would you have to buy to get that kind of cycle count

 

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Where the heck are you getting these insanely optimistic LiIon figures? I think the new wave of Li marketing is unleashed in full force.

If it really had 1/2 the TCO of lead acid, you would see corporates, who have no issues in large initial investment unlike us common folk, all switch rto li-ion for their backups.

And LA batteries won't give you 800 deep discharge (100%) cycles. Less than 500 maybe (2-3 years at most). So now you can say it's 3 times as expensive as Li !

Corporate companies use batteries only for change over time till the Generator kicks in, hence there usage is mostly at float voltage storage, where lead acid batteries can last 8 years+.

The regular Lithium batteries with voltages of 4.2v at full charges like those in laptops, phones etc have a cycle life of only about 300 to 600 cycles at 80% discharge.
The Lithium Iron phospate LFP chemistry offers far superior cycle life even the unknown make chinese brands offer 1000 cycle atleast at 80%, reputed brands unfortunately do not make LFP. Today pretty much 90% of the worlds LFP or similar tweaked chemistry is owned by Chinese companies. Even the LFP pioneer A123 US based company went bankrupt and was purchased by the chinese.

For reputed brands only a few like Sony/Murata still produce LFP here is the data sheet of their cylindrical cell Fortelion, as you can see even at 100% discharge after 8000 cycles it still has 74% capacity.

Do the math. How many lead acids would you have to buy to get that kind of cycle count

I am still doing the math but the initial investment is just two much knowing well that the price of LFP will fall.
I have to spend about 80k for 12v 200ah x 4 and will be able to get around 530w continuous for 20hrs or 960w continuous for 10hrs, for my application 4pm to 9am there will be no Sunlight. So it will about within it spec at c15 even after discharging to only 80%. I have 5 years of warranty, so not sure how they will honor it. Since at 80% DOD my batteries will lost significant capacity at just 3 year mark.

Currently a 12v equivalent 80AH LFP battery costs 25k to 35k plus GST , for a 1500 cycle life 80% DOD, but they don't fall of the clip like lead acid.
A more reputed 4000+ cycle 80% DOD battery price for 12v 100AH x 4 costs 1.2 lakh plus ( GST is extra), for that price I can get 200AH x 4 and still have 40k left in the bank.

LTO chemistry is a whole different ball game with very few manufacturers even in China, they are priced at $700/kw for a Toshiba cell compared to Li-on at $150/kw average international price. LFP is some where in the middle in terms of price.

I had postponed my battery purchase till the 31st GST meeting but alas the tax on lead acid battery is still at 28% GST. Lithium based ones is at 18% GST. I am unhappy that I will have to settle for the inferior Lead acid battery and Lithium is too expensive for now. Once electric cars enter the market, we will see price dropping and also used batteries of crashed EV vehicles will be even cheaper and still 10x better then lead acid.

 

[NotMyRealName]

I visited two homes recently and it amazed me how people had to run around switching things off because the UPS tripped when the power went off (!) That is ridiculous, its as if there is no UPS

A family of four. 600VA UPS with a 150AH instabrite. 2 LCD TV's, four lights, two fans for two hours. They've had that setup for ten years now. That's a max load of 400W, one extra light or fan and it trips. Now if i say they should have upgraded their UPS and got an extra battery they would say that isn't necessary. Course its necessary but anyone who recommends it will be considered a cheat because these people don't know better. And they have friends with similar setups and nobody got more.

That's just retarded. Must be a really bad system. Till 2012 I had a su-kam falcon, 600VA i think or maybe 750VA. And a su-kam 180Ah non-tubular. Like straight out of a truck! I can't remember the figures now, but my load was like 1 PC (lcd), 3 fans, 2-3 (36W) TLs, and a Sony 25" CRT. If the TV was on when the power went out it was fine, but the system couldn't handle the startup if the TV was off when on backup. This setup would run for 4-5 hours, never had a low battery, for almost 2 years of load shedding all summer. Every day there was either 1x4 hour cut or 2x2.5 hour cuts. I sized the VA correctly and guesstimated the Ah required. So i did the calculations back then too, but now i speak from experience. I dunno, maybe current batteries are crap, even back then every one was cursing su-kam, but in my experience they were way better than exide crap.

Corporate companies use batteries only for change over time till the Generator kicks in, hence there usage is mostly at float voltage storage, where lead acid batteries can last 8 years+

This is true. It's just so the DG can kick in. But the load is phenomenal no doubt. Our DC backup power rooms were so huge, the server rooms paled in comparison. Yet, when you consider the wattage all that equipment pulls, it was again wondrous the backup system would cope.

And talking about DoD, what percentage of users really discharge to 100% or close to that?


Hang on a sec though. You guys are talking about specs of advanced Li chemistry, but then LA price is being compared with the Regal etc. models. Do those have the same advanced Li-Ion inside? These figures all sound nice but there's no way Li-Ion works out cheaper than LA today in reality.

 

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If the TV was on when the power went out it was fine, but the system couldn't handle the startup if the TV was off when on backup.

My apc 1000va smart ups triped when the a 21" Sony CRT was switched On in back up mode but used to run fine when it was already On and then switched to back up.

And talking about DoD, what percentage of users really discharge to 100% or close to that?
Hang on a sec though. You guys are talking about specs of advanced Li chemistry, but then LA price is being compared with the Regal etc. models. Do those have the same advanced Li-Ion inside? These figures all sound nice but there's no way Li-Ion works out cheaper than LA today in reality.

I think Regal as a LFP battery but doesn't have the cycle life of modern LFP cells like those found in chinese EV vehicles.

People in villages or people who are unaware do discharge them to 100% DOD, as do EV scooter/car owners.
I think everyone agrees.

 

[NotMyRealName]

People in villages or people who are unaware do discharge them to 100% DOD, as do EV scooter/car owners.
I think everyone agrees.

I meant that it's rare to have such long power cuts that people fully discharge their batteries on a regular basis. EVs, definitely done so, but we were talking about home backup i thought.

 

[rdst_1]

I meant that it's rare to have such long power cuts that people fully discharge their batteries on a regular basis. EVs, definitely done so, but we were talking about home backup i thought.

Come to rural India sometimes. My Mamaji used to go and get his tractor battery and attach it to his inverter once the inverter battery ran out. Couldn't afford to buy a 2 battery inverter. This was when only running 2 fans because electric supply came for only few hours daily. Situation has improved but he still only gets 12hrs of electricity a day. His inverter battery gets used daily 365 days a year.

 

[NotMyRealName]

But i thought all the villages were electrified now[DOUBLEPOST=1546221930][/DOUBLEPOST]On a serious note, what village is this? My village is 100 times better i think !

 

[rdst_1]

But i thought all the villages were electrified now[DOUBLEPOST=1546221930][/DOUBLEPOST]On a serious note, what village is this? My village is 100 times better i think !

There are thousands of villages like his in India.
Depends on which state you are in. He is in Haryana. 0

 

[NotMyRealName]

In any case, villagers are not going to be investing in Li ion any time soon when they can barely afford LA.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against Li ion, just saying realistically it's more expensive than LA today. All these figures pulled from brochures etc. aren't changing that fact.

On a different note, what is the environment impact of manufacturing LA vs Li Ion? I'd guess Li Ion manufacturing is more environment friendly but you never know...

 

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In any case, villagers are not going to be investing in Li ion any time soon when they can barely afford LA.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against Li ion, just saying realistically it's more expensive than LA today. All these figures pulled from brochures etc. aren't changing that fact.

On a different note, what is the environment impact of manufacturing LA vs Li Ion? I'd guess Li Ion manufacturing is more environment friendly but you never know...

You will be surprised I get images from Li Battery suppliers in India who have installed in villages, for their solar home/land. Whether the villagers paid for it or their siblings paid is another matter.

Lead is harmful for the workers in battery plant, If you look at the pictures of even reputed company plants from Exide India the lead is still handled manually. Lithium batteries like those cylindrical cells are completely automated. Currently there is no facility or company in India that manufactures lithium batteries. Of course both metals are mined that's a different matter, but Lead is 100% recyclable.

 

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I am still doing the math but the initial investment is just two much knowing well that the price of LFP will fall.

Price of LFP may fall but cycle count for LFP will not increase. Besides, you are considering titanate not LFP i thought.

I have to spend about 80k for 12v 200ah x 4 and will be able to get around 530w continuous for 20hrs or 960w continuous for 10hrs, for my application 4pm to 9am there will be no Sunlight. So it will about within it spec at c15 even after discharging to only 80%. I have 5 years of warranty, so not sure how they will honor it. Since at 80% DOD my batteries will lost significant capacity at just 3 year mark.

Currently a 12v equivalent 80AH LFP battery costs 25k to 35k plus GST , for a 1500 cycle life 80% DOD, but they don't fall of the clip like lead acid.
A more reputed 4000+ cycle 80% DOD battery price for 12v 100AH x 4 costs 1.2 lakh plus ( GST is extra), for that price I can get 200AH x 4 and still have 40k left in the bank.

LTO chemistry is a whole different ball game with very few manufacturers even in China, they are priced at $700/kw for a Toshiba cell compared to Li-on at $150/kw average international price. LFP is some where in the middle in terms of price.

I had postponed my battery purchase till the 31st GST meeting but alas the tax on lead acid battery is still at 28% GST. Lithium based ones is at 18% GST. I am unhappy that I will have to settle for the inferior Lead acid battery and Lithium is too expensive for now. Once electric cars enter the market, we will see price dropping and also used batteries of crashed EV vehicles will be even cheaper and still 10x better then lead acid.

You are calculating on the basis of price/capacity

What if you calculate on the basis of price/ energy stored over the life of the battery ?

See the video i posted a few posts back comparing lead with lithium

 

[NotMyRealName]

You will be surprised I get images from Li Battery suppliers in India who have installed in villages, for their solar home/land. Whether the villagers paid for it or their siblings paid is another matter.

Lead is harmful for the workers in battery plant, If you look at the pictures of even reputed company plants from Exide India the lead is still handled manually. Lithium batteries like those cylindrical cells are completely automated. Currently there is no facility or company in India that manufactures lithium batteries. Of course both metals are mined that's a different matter, but Lead is 100% recyclable.

That IS very surprising !

Lead's recyclability is the main reason it's so popular. Extremely profitable to manufacturers. But we need to move ahead. Just like fossil fuels...

 

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Hang on a sec though. You guys are talking about specs of advanced Li chemistry, but then LA price is being compared with the Regal etc. models. Do those have the same advanced Li-Ion inside? These figures all sound nice but there's no way Li-Ion works out cheaper than LA today in reality.

I've been trying to figure this out. What sort of batteries does that regalia battery posted on the first page have. Prismatic or cylindrical. So i searched for similar looking batteries. Rack mount like battery packs and found this model from Hunterhex in Sweden. Its 48V and 50AH too. Browsing through the specs we see the cell type and its configuration.

So its using lithium phosphate 26650 cells. In a configuration of 15 in series to make 48V & 16 strings in parallel to make 50AH. That is 240 26650 cells in an enclosure with BMS weighing just under 35kg.

Anyway I'm guessing that's what the regalia 50AH battery uses as well. Looking at okaya's lithium catalog shows they also sell battery packs of 26650 cells. These would be chinese ones. Not the Sony's with 8000 cycles.

Same protocols on the regalia battery.

Rregalia says 4h to charge so its using a similar charge protocol

This bit is slightly confusing. I don't know why they say it needs to be recharged if stored longer than 3 months. Self-discharge must be higher than normal with these 26650 cells i suppose. In any case there is a test function for the battery and if the test lights don't come on i will have it replaced.

And here we see the cycle life for the hunterhex is 2000. Warranty for reglia battery is 5yr, so i suppose full discharge everyday would be around 5 yr. Lithiums do not completely die after that point there will still be some capacity left. So a 10yr life as mentioned in the regalia brochure is plausible if not fully discharged.

So instead of 3000 cycles, we can expect 2000 cycles at full discharge. How do the figures stack up now. The regalia works out slightly less than buying 6 x 150AH batteries over a 10 yr period. In other words the price is competitive without any of the hassles of LA.

 

[NotMyRealName]

^^ tell you what. You buy one. Tear it down. And then use it too.

That way we'll know for sure !

p.s. my experience with luminous (& livguard) products is that they are just above average quality. Maybe even good. Not great. A close friend is a distributor for Livguard here. He sells way more water purifiers than inverters and batteries though, because our load shedding has been scrapped for a few years now. Batteries he does more of amaron. He actually started with car detailing but is now doing more of this kind of retail.

 

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Thane based company doing lithium power backup. Monitoring via ethernet only, suppose that qualifies as smart.

https://vmechatronics.com/OneBox.php

Only automotive section for Bangalore though

 

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Price of LFP may fall but cycle count for LFP will not increase. Besides, you are considering titanate not LFP i thought.


You are calculating on the basis of price/capacity

What if you calculate on the basis of price/ energy stored over the life of the battery ?

See the video i posted a few posts back comparing lead with lithium

I was considering LTO battery but seeing that there are zero suppliers in India and the fact that you can get LFP with different cathode and these chinese batteries have about 8000 cycles now available in India.
LFP pack costs about $250/kw and LTO costs about $700/kw without any taxes, freight. Lead is equivalent is $125/kw with GST retail (for a 130AH c20 battery at c1 is around around 80ah, if you discharge at c20 you get even more kw/$) .

Now I know the cycle life LFP and LTO is a lot more, but so is the initial investment and knowing the ever increasing worldwide need for energy storage required for solar and wind we will see fall in prices for these two chemistries. LTO and LFP packs are not used in EV cars or scooters, they are only used now in buses or large size vehicles due to weight and space issue. So it doesn't have the economics of scale as other 4.2v based lithium batteries.

Tesla batteries (made by panasonic) because of their scale and very low or nil use of cobalt(most expensive element in lithium batteries) is a good 2 to 3 years ahead of the competition in terms of price and energy density at around $120/kw, they are projected to hit $100/kw next year, again these are price at which Tesla buys from panasonic, for the common man in India with GST and freight/customs it will increase the price by atleast 60% and then once the cells are made to a pack by some battery assembler in India, they will keep a minimum profit of atleast 50%.

Even Tesla power wall which cost $6700 for a 13.5kw battery capacity that includes a built in 5kw inverter and charger, you can subtract about $1000 for the inverter circuitry and it would still cost $422/kw. Despite the fact that they are getting batteries at really low price.

 

[adder]

I've been trying to figure this out. What sort of batteries does that regalia battery posted on the first page have. Prismatic or cylindrical. So i searched for similar looking batteries. Rack mount like battery packs and found this model from Hunterhex in Sweden. Its 48V and 50AH too. Browsing through the specs we see the cell type and its configuration.

And here we see the cycle life for the hunterhex is 2000. Warranty for reglia battery is 5yr, so i suppose full discharge everyday would be around 5 yr. Lithiums do not completely die after that point there will still be some capacity left. So a 10yr life as mentioned in the regalia brochure is plausible if not fully discharged.

So instead of 3000 cycles, we can expect 2000 cycles at full discharge. How do the figures stack up now. The regalia works out slightly less than buying 6 x 150AH batteries over a 10 yr period. In other words the price is competitive without any of the hassles of LA.

When I went to the solar expo 3 weeks back, most of the lithium packs looks like those rack mount and pretty much all of them have a can port for balancing and RS232/RS4xx ports. The realy crappy ones have a cycle life of 1500 and average is about 2000 cycles. Good ones have cycle of 4000 to 8000 cycles including those from Vison mechatronics who where also a exhibitor.

btw that One box costs 1.2lakh plus gst it will have batteries equivalent to 4x100ah. They refused to tell the make and model of the battery inside, I told them I need to validate their cycle life claim with the data sheet from the manufacturer. They refused and they didn't get my sale. This was prior to going to the solar expo.

 

[NotMyRealName]

When I went to the solar expo 3 weeks back, most of the lithium packs looks like those rack mount and pretty much all of them have a can port for balancing and RS232/RS4xx ports. The realy crappy ones have a cycle life of 1500 and average is about 2000 cycles. Good ones have cycle of 4000 to 8000 cycles including those from Vison mechatronics who where also a exhibitor.

btw that One box costs 1.2lakh plus gst it will have batteries equivalent to 4x100ah. They refused to tell the make and model of the battery inside, I told them I need to validate their cycle life claim with the data sheet from the manufacturer. They refused and they didn't get my sale. This was prior to going to the solar expo.

8000 freaking cycles is insane! I keep telling everyone, the next big revolution that will change the world is power. Like nuclear levels of power density in ultra small packages, from watches to phones to vehicles.

 

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^^ tell you what. You buy one. Tear it down. And then use it too.

That way we'll know for sure !

If the battery is enveloped in shrink wrap there won't be much to see. I was trying to think where did i hear about litium phospate and i think it was a luminous ad. There is nothing mentioning the specific chemistry used. Could very well be the same 18650's used in laptops. However the difference here is the UPS runs of the mains whereas the laptop constantly runs off the battery and unsurprisingly kills it entirely within two years what with the constant charging.

p.s. my experience with luminous (& livguard) products is that they are just above average quality. Maybe even good. Not great. A close friend is a distributor for Livguard here. He sells way more water purifiers than inverters and batteries though, because our load shedding has been scrapped for a few years now. Batteries he does more of amaron. He actually started with car detailing but is now doing more of this kind of retail.

What are my options then ? Luminous has a tie up with Schneider which is why they could even introduce this regalia product. I've recently learnt model i want will be available for 94k

See the feedback they get on their twitter page, here, here

Clearly the inspiration is Tesla's Powerwall. How much does that cost. First gen back in 2015 came in two sizes 7kWh for $3k and 10kWh for $3,5k. Installation adds another $200 to $800 and get this you have to spend further on an inverter as the first gen is just a battery bank and nothing more. Second gen Powerwall is 13kWh, this time it has an inverter and goes for nearly $7k odd. Bringing the total cost to nearly 5L. Tesla's batteries are Lithium NMC and come with a 10yr warranty or 3650 cycles. Regalia with five years will do half that or close to 2k cycles.