Max range router for 3000sq ft residence. Budget 10k.

[Jasku]

Hi guys,

My aunt has a 3000 sq ft house, the house is like a rectangle and the connection is at one end of the house, so would require the best range router available, no other requirement. Budget is not an issue, it would be great if its <10k.

I have been doing some research and shortlisted a few, but need help in narrowing down.

1) TP Link 1043ND - seems like the cheapest and best performer, but mixed reviews on the net.
2) Asus N56 U - tried and tested, seems decent, but overkill for the requirement?
3) Cisco E3200 - Not sure, just listed based on internal antennae, and a few reviews.
4) Netgear WNDR4000 - Again, this is up there in most reviews with the N56U and N66U

So, networking experts, please shed some wisdom and help me pick a winner!

Tagging @cranky @ALPHA17 - please add any others.

Thanks in advance.

 

[blr_p]

Specify the wifi capability of the clients.

What will these clients be doing as in apps expected to run on them.

Where will they be located along with what obstacles are present with distances from the router. A floor layout indicating the location of the expected clients would be ideal.

Do you have an existing wifi router ? which model is it and in what way does it under perform. if you do not have one can you borrow one and try it out. This will serve as a useful benchmark and help to better assess what a new router is expected to do.

 

[cranky]

What will the network be expected to do: Streaming, fileserver, or just 'net access?

Best coverage if the router is at the long end of the rectangle, is to run one router plus one wired AP. Two cheap routers used this way will give you more coverage than one 'super-router'.

For just internet usage, G mode at 54Mbps is overkill let alone N.

 

[Jasku]

Specify the wifi capability of the clients.

What will these clients be doing as in apps expected to run on them.

Where will they be located along with what obstacles are present with distances from the router. A floor layout indicating the location of the expected clients would be ideal.

Do you have an existing wifi router ? which model is it and in what way does it under perform. if you do not have one can you borrow one and try it out. This will serve as a useful benchmark and help to better assess what a new router is expected to do.

What will the network be expected to do: Streaming, fileserver, or just 'net access?

Best coverage if the router is at the long end of the rectangle, is to run one router plus one wired AP. Two cheap routers used this way will give you more coverage than one 'super-router'.

For just internet usage, G mode at 54Mbps is overkill let alone N.

Its just for internet usage guys, as for the clients connected 2 to 3 laptops, 2-3 phones, a couple tablets. Like I said basic internet usage, youtube videos, etc. I just had them bump up to 4 Mbps plan from Airtel.

They are currently using Linksys WRT54G, and the signal doesnt reach at the other extreme of the house, there are about 2-3 walls, think the max distance would be 50-60ft. I will try and get a sketch of the house, but may be difficult.
cranky I did suggest her to move the connection in the middle, which is their hall, she is apprehensive to all the wiring shift. I am not sure how comfortable she will be with the wired AP, will the wired AP setup not suffer a loss, like the way it is halved in case of a wireless repeater?

I did away with the repeater setup due to the loss in the second network, but that is plan B.

So, please suggest the best option guys.

@blr_p

 

[cranky]

Repeater doubles up a single radio for receive and transmit, hence the loss. Wired AP = practically zero loss, as the connection between the routers is wired. Even a repeater is enough for browsing. I only had problems when trying to stream media over a repeater link, it's simply not possible as the latency is too high. Most apps including Remote Desktop work fine over a repeater link, and browsing is just fine. I use a repeater to extend my network across three floors, and as long as I don't try watch HD rips, I'm fine.

The WRT54G/G2 has more range than my puny little WNDR3700. The signal from that router used to reach three floors down and two buildings away from mine, on the street. Compared to those routers, nowadays all you will get is disappointment.

I guess you can try hooking up a couple of high-power directional antennae to try and boost the range in the far corner of the house. I suspect even the best workhorse routers will struggle to get a stable and reliable signal 60 feet away unless it's free air.

I still think a wired AP is your best bet. If you are balking at wires, try the wireline solution for the physical link. You will need to put up some cash, but can get away with using the current router as the AP for the far end of the house, and a (very) cheap 150N or G router. I suspect a pair of wirelines and a basic router should be within your budget, maybe just about.

 

[blr_p]

cranky I did suggest her to move the connection in the middle, which is their hall, she is apprehensive to all the wiring shift.

How about getting the guys that installed the connection to do it. The connection from the outside to be moved to the middle and you move the router there. There is no internal wiring required to be done in that case as its the external connection that gets moved. Given your requirements this just might do the job. If the desktops were wired to the router then they will need either a wifi card or a dongle. You could even try to attach higher gain omni antennas to the linksys in this location.

Try a dry run to verify. Just take the router on its own and place it in the hall. Then power it up and once the radio is up, test the signal with inssider at different points in the house. Before you do this measure the signals with the router in its present location so as to get an idea of what the minimum RSSI in dbM should be at the preferred client locations ie ideally more than -80dbm. You will need to run inssider on their clients that have trouble, ie if its the phones then run inssider on the phones/tablets otherwise the laptop.

Thing with wireline is you have to ensure that the rooms where the adapters are placed are on the same electrical circuit for the best performance.

How do you know which rooms are on the same circuit ?

Go to the fusebox and start pulling fuses and see in which rooms the lights go off. There will be a performance drop if they are not on the same circuit. If it turns out that the rooms on opposite ends of the house just so happen to be on the same circuit then you're in luck as you've got your link without any wiring and just need to attach another router as the AP, maybe just pick up the same router again if its available.

Another downside of using a repeater is, that you will have a WPS connection that uses WEP encryption and that is a potential security risk. Easy to crack the password and for others to gain access to the network.

Do you by any chance happen to have access to a macbook ?

 

[Jasku]

Repeater doubles up a single radio for receive and transmit, hence the loss. Wired AP = practically zero loss, as the connection between the routers is wired. Even a repeater is enough for browsing. I only had problems when trying to stream media over a repeater link, it's simply not possible as the latency is too high. Most apps including Remote Desktop work fine over a repeater link, and browsing is just fine. I use a repeater to extend my network across three floors, and as long as I don't try watch HD rips, I'm fine.

The WRT54G/G2 has more range than my puny little WNDR3700. The signal from that router used to reach three floors down and two buildings away from mine, on the street. Compared to those routers, nowadays all you will get is disappointment.

I guess you can try hooking up a couple of high-power directional antennae to try and boost the range in the far corner of the house. I suspect even the best workhorse routers will struggle to get a stable and reliable signal 60 feet away unless it's free air.

I still think a wired AP is your best bet. If you are balking at wires, try the wireline solution for the physical link. You will need to put up some cash, but can get away with using the current router as the AP for the far end of the house, and a (very) cheap 150N or G router. I suspect a pair of wirelines and a basic router should be within your budget, maybe just about.

The repeater is a good option, and one I had as a backup. I was just worried about the repeater network performing at 50% capacity, let me clarify, will the bandwidth drop as well, or is it just the latency? If you are saying that its fine for internet usage, then this is probably the best option.

Yes, absolutely the WRT54G is an absolute workhorse, I had for more than 7 years, now performing its functions in my sisters office, whilst I switched to the RT-N13U. Anyways, coming back to aunts issue, her router was pronounced dead by the airtel engineer, it was unused for 3-4 months (renovating their house). Anyways I told her to hold off buying a new router based on the engineers suggestion, took a look, wasnt giving an IP, performed a hard reset and voila, it was back. I think the power chord connection is loose, keeps restarting at the slightest of touches, and is pretty old too, maybe its best to change the router.

The powerline is a good idea, dunno why I missed it, but will it be as effective / better than the repeater setup? I ask, cause our power cabling most times is not as good compared to western countries, would it be worth the extra investment? Have you seen it in action.

Also, I was looking at access points on flipkart, and they are priced more than wifi routers, is there any particular reason for this? Any difference in performance to a couple routers vs router and AP pairing?

As of now, I am leaning towards the repeater setup due to your first hand experience, will take a final call once you guys help me evaluate the other options.

Thanks cranky

PS-

Issue 1:The airtel guy had setup the beetel 200bx in PPOE mode, since I dint know the login credentials, I simply let the WRT54G be in DHCP mode, and connected the cable from the 220BX to the lan ports of the WRT54G, made sure IPs dont conflict. The wifi worked fine on the netbook without WEP, once I setup WEP, the netbook was unable to browse, but internet was working with iphone, ipad, and my galaxy s3. I tried playing around for a few mins, and then set the google DNS on the netbook, and then it started working, any idea why the wireless security is causing an issue?

Issue 2: If I were to go with repeater setup and got 2 new routers, would it be possible with the above mentioned modem config, or will we have to switch to a bridge mode? or simply having both routers in similar IP range would work?

Thanks!

- - - Updated - - -

How about getting the guys that installed the connection to do it. The connection from the outside to be moved to the middle and you move the router there. There is no internal wiring required to be done in that case as its the external connection that gets moved. Given your requirements this just might do the job. If the desktops were wired to the router then they will need either a wifi card or a dongle. You could even try to attach higher gain omni antennas to the linksys in this location.

Try a dry run to verify. Just take the router on its own and place it in the hall. Then power it up and once the radio is up, test the signal with inssider at different points in the house. Before you do this measure the signals with the router in its present location so as to get an idea of what the minimum RSSI in dbM should be at the preferred client locations ie ideally more than -80dbm. You will need to run inssider on their clients that have trouble, ie if its the phones then run inssider on the phones/tablets otherwise the laptop.

Thing with wireline is you have to ensure that the rooms where the adapters are placed are on the same electrical circuit for the best performance.

How do you know which rooms are on the same circuit ?

Go to the fusebox and start pulling fuses and see in which rooms the lights go off. There will be a performance drop if they are not on the same circuit. If it turns out that the rooms on opposite ends of the house just so happen to be on the same circuit then you're in luck as you've got your link without any wiring and just need to attach another router as the AP, maybe just pick up the same router again if its available.

Another downside of using a repeater is, that you will have a WPS connection that uses WEP encryption and that is a potential security risk. Easy to crack the password and for others to gain access to the network.

Do you by any chance happen to have access to a macbook ?

blr_p - good points mate. The thing is I suggested the same thing, but apparently she had the telephone junctions fixed within the house, and moving to the hall entails messing with that wiring and conduits, but she is willing to do it if absolutely necessary, cause they are currently renovating .

Testing the signal with router in the hall is a great idea, will do it over the weekend if possible. I dont want to test whether the rooms are in the same phase, too much of a hassle, and just helping her out, want the solution to be as simple and durable, else I will keep getting 'called'.

I will try and look it up, but can you elucidate the security vulnerability on a repeater setup, please?

I can try and get hold of a mac, why do you ask?

Thanks again!

 

[cranky]

Most routers can be made to act as APs. My understanding is that APs usually have better radios, which is part of the cost difference. Repeaters are also more expensive than routers because of switching logic that needs to be implemented, and also because very few routers can be used as repeaters (your Asus, for example, can be used as router, repeater or AP). You will have the option of letting the repeater provide DHCP services or not, as well as SSID and the level of security you need. The repeater itself appears as just another client to the router, so setup is pretty painless. Netgear dedicated repeaters take about 4 minutes to set up for a total newbie, so I recommend picking one just for the ease of use. I have the WNRPT2000, which is N-capable repeater and provides upto 4 wired clients (media players etc), and it is fully capable of deploying in wireless AP (same SSID) or wireless repeater (different SSID) modes, with up to WPA2 encryption and an independent DHCP server (that you can turn off if you want your router to provide all IPs).

I think two N-13s will do everything you want. For a 4Mbps internet connection, even a 16-18Mbps link between the two routers will be overkill, let alone sufficient. Some setup legwork is required, and you will require both routers to be rebooted every 2-3 days if the link is not used all the time and IPs do not get renewed. Wired APs usually never need rebooting unless there is fault somewhere. I have tried both, and prefer wired AP operation wherever possible. My house now has a centrally located, ceiling-mounted router so even a weak 170mW signal is seen at over -70dbM (usually -64 or better) throughout the house

Wirelines work great too. Since we mostly use branching mains and not ring mains, you can pretty much connect the wirelines anywhere inside the same house and it will work unless you trip a fuse or breaker on one switchboard or room due to some other fault. However it will add needlessly to your cost and if you're not hitting the network hard (4Mbps is nothing) it may not be required.

 

[blr_p]

I will try and look it up, but can you elucidate the security vulnerability on a repeater setup, please?

Repeaters tend to use WEP encryption vs WPA/WPA2 which is a more secure encryption algorithm. It depends on the product, more recent routers use WPA. Its preferable not to use WEP.

I can try and get hold of a mac, why do you ask?

Because there is this nifty heatmapper availiable for free but only for macs. Remember to make a floor layout and take lots of measurements in each room. The video just shows 2 per room try and take 8 at the different extremities to get a more accurate picutre.

Do bear in mind that the macbook might have a better wifi receiver than your aunt's clients so you will have to set the minimum acceptable wifi signal strength in netspot accordingly from the values inssider gives you on those clients.

If you need to convince anyone as to the merits of one configuration over another i cannot think of a more persuasive presentation than this.

Just show them the before and after heatmaps

 

[cranky]

Repeaters tend to use WEP encryption vs WPA/WPA2 which is a more secure encryption algorithm. It depends on the product, more recent routers use WPA. Its preferable not to use WEP.

As far as I know this is an issue with one brand, and if and only if the router is used as a repeater. Dedicated repeaters do support upto WPA2-TKIP/AES encryption, as does my Asus RT-N13U (V1) when used as either a repeater or wireless AP.

Of course, one-touch configuration will use WEP, but that issue is not restricted to repeaters. Don't believe everything you read on foreign forums, they're mostly idiotta.

 

[JuGGa]

Thing with wireline is you have to ensure that the rooms where the adapters are placed are on the same electrical circuit for the best performance.

How do you know which rooms are on the same circuit ?

Go to the fusebox and start pulling fuses and see in which rooms the lights go off. There will be a performance drop if they are not on the same circuit. If it turns out that the rooms on opposite ends of the house just so happen to be on the same circuit then you're in luck as you've got your link without any wiring and just need to attach another router as the AP, maybe just pick up the same router again if its available.
?

By wireline, did you mean LAN cable? If yes, how is electrical circuit, fuse and the likes related to it? Sounds confusing to me. And which adapter are you taking about?

 

[blr_p]

As far as I know this is an issue with one brand, and if and only if the router is used as a repeater. Dedicated repeaters do support upto WPA2-TKIP/AES encryption, as does my Asus RT-N13U (V1) when used as either a repeater or wireless AP.

Of course, one-touch configuration will use WEP, but that issue is not restricted to repeaters. Don't believe everything you read on foreign forums, they're mostly idiotta.

This is dependent on the product he goes with. I was thinking getting another linksys of the same and using it as a wired repeater. He could borrow an extra linksys from his sister's office to try. Why buy two new products to replace the existing when just one would work with the older. The linksys will still have better range than the newer products. If testing at the aunts is successful then he just has to get his aunt to buy his sister a new N13. Or pass his N13 to his sister and get the aunt to buy him a new router of his choosing, in gratitude for services rendered

But the linksys stock firmware does not even support encryption in repeater mode and would require alternative firmware to use encryption. If alternative firmware is required then there is an extra learning curve which would not be there with the N13 which supports wireless repeating out of the box. Plus, the N13 is an N300 vs the linksys 54g. A 130mbs link speed is possible with a mimo capable client vs just 54mbs.

So, what are the chances that all his aunt's clients will be n-capable, will there be any g-only clients in the mix. Will the g clients force the N13 to operate at g only speeds in a mixed network ? or can the n13 also service n clients at 65/130mbs as well. Otherwise only 54mbs or 108 mbs is the max attainable.

One thing he definitely does not want to do is mix products here. Has to stay with the same brand or better still same model otherwise if there is a problem vendors will only support their own products.

By wireline, did you mean LAN cable? If yes, how is electrical circuit, fuse and the likes related to it? Sounds confusing to me. And which adapter are you taking about?

That was a typo, should have said powerline.

For example...

TP-Link Powerline adapters

 

[cranky]

One thing he definitely does not want to do is mix products here. Has to stay with the same brand or better still same model otherwise if there is a problem vendors will only support their own products.

Really? I've run my own environment multiple times with mixed brands and never had an issue. Netgear, Linksys and Asus brands have happily coexisted with each other for many years now and I've not had a situation that could not be solved with a little help from the internet and a few hours of my time. Maybe average Joe consumer does not get it and has to run like a crybaby to customer support - whose combined knowledge is probably half of some of the people on the forum in the first place.

Most wireless issues are caused by terminology confusion, placement and misconfiguration. I would think it folly to recommend staying with one brand just for support, at the expense of security. Yes, the wire is the best idea but you can work without it if needed. As for distances, I have a repeater about 50 feet (three RCC ceilings)below the main router and though it is able to only connect at 11Mb/s, wireless clients are far more easily able to use the repeater's signal than the router's at the same location (even though the link speed between the router and repeater is not half of 54Mb/s or even close). Internet browsing and Remote Desktop are fast and smooth, with absolutely no issues in streaming music and some low-resolution SD video. I really can't ask for more.

 

[blr_p]

Really? I've run my own environment multiple times with mixed brands and never had an issue. Netgear, Linksys and Asus brands have happily coexisted with each other for many years now and I've not had a situation that could not be solved with a little help from the internet and a few hours of my time. Maybe average Joe consumer does not get it and has to run like a crybaby to customer support - whose combined knowledge is probably half of some of the people on the forum in the first place.

A wired AP configuration means less headaches and you could mix and match there.

But what about a wireless repeating configuration where there is no possibility for a wire ?

Pairing wireless bridges & repeaters is more tricky as there is no operational guarantee that one vendors products will co-operate with another because there exists no standard at all for wireless repeaters to begin with. Unless you know the products concerned mixing them is a gamble, generally speaking.

You paired your wndr3700 with a netgear repeater and not one from another vendor and you recommend two N13s as well. The common thread with both is the vendor.

Am wondering whether the N13s could work with the wrt54g. He already has both models and could try to experiment in a mixed configuration.

Most wireless issues are caused by terminology confusion, placement and misconfiguration. I would think it folly to recommend staying with one brand just for support, at the expense of security. Yes, the wire is the best idea but you can work without it if needed. As for distances, I have a repeater about 50 feet (three RCC ceilings)below the main router and though it is able to only connect at 11Mb/s, wireless clients are far more easily able to use the repeater's signal than the router's at the same location (even though the link speed between the router and repeater is not half of 54Mb/s or even close). Internet browsing and Remote Desktop are fast and smooth, with absolutely no issues in streaming music and some low-resolution SD video. I really can't ask for more.

Once past the cutoff date, free technical support from the vendor isn't an option any longer. That leaves the vendors user forums, which work best only with that vendors products. He will be supporting the family here. Sticking with one brand means easier maintenance as you have the same on both.

Security can be handled with alternative firmware. With the linksys wrt54g, one is spoilt for choice, this product deserves a place in a router museum given the number of alternative firmwares it spawned. A very popular and much loved product. Provided of course one is willing to learn the ins & outs and quirks these alternatives bring. One downside with sticking with the 54g is more capable clients in the future will be stuck at that speed so there is no growth option available. The 54g would be better used as a repeater in this case rather than as the primary router, and that too only on the last leg.

In comparison, working out of the box is much easier with two N13's. Presumably he has already experimented with alternative firmwares as both his routers are compatible. I'm not advocating one over the other just putting the possibilities out there as there are a number of possible permutations within this scenario. His call.

What worked to your advantage with your setup over three floors is the repeater is directly under the router. This is a much simpler configuration than setting up repeaters horizontally across a floor. Bear in mind RDP was designed to work even over dialup. Citrix did a fantastic job there in optimising its performance over say VNC. I'm not surprised RDP works well for you. Streaming or downloads also isn't too latency dependent.

But what about games or video chating. Those apps are latency sensitive. And to a lesser extent heavy websites requiring lots of connections to load up.

 

[cranky]

1. Asus and Netgear WNRPT worked fine.

2. Asus and WRT54G2 worked fine, using the Linksys as a repeater.

3. Netgear WNDR3700 and Asus RT-N13U worked fine, Asus as repeater.

The trick is to set the repeater up as just another WPA2 client. A good device will know what to do after that point. Whereas the Asus is a more 'dumb' repeater, the WNRPT gives you the option of setting up its own, independent network. All the router knows is that it's another client which shares the connection.

Frankly, my router and repeater *are* horizontal, because the router is mounted 90 degree vertical (arse up). With omni antennae it does not really matter much how you mount it, but line of sight and how often it is broken is a bigger issue. The dispersion pattern of most (Netgear, at least) routers with internal antennae is 'all ears', for lack of a better term.

Wiring is always the better solution, but I keep going back to the TS's concern of drawing new wire. And we are clear that the only purpose of the network is to share the internet, no difference between N and G at all as the limiting factor will be the 'net connection (and to some extent the processor in the router if more than 7-8 clients access the 'net simultaneously).

I guess we have generated enough discussion for a decision to be taken.

 

[Jasku]

Wow, fantastic discussion, loads to be learned here.
blr_p that really is a nifty app, and I havent been able to survey her house, honestly I cant all the way there just for the survey. All they want is internet connectivity in the entire house.

The repeater setup that you guys discussed more than the brand, its more to do with the chip set that's used in the 2 devices can cause issue, they all use the universal standard. My 2 cents.

Anyways, I know you cranky suggested 2 RT-N13Us, but I really want to try out TP-Link and have heard and read about their awesome throughput, especially with 3 detachable antennae, the router outperforms the N56U in pure wifi throughput (Check 08:10 of video). Please let me know if anyone has experience with TP-Link. This dude goes on raving about this router, review could be biased, not sure.
Checkout this review -

Guys, lets just forget the WRT54G for now, please suggest the best router pair for a repeater setup! Like I said earlier money is not an issue for her, so she would happily spend if its worth it.

I was supposed to set it up this weekend, but looks like will have to do it next after you guys help me zero in one the pair.

Thanks!

 

[d6bmg]

^^ Router pair as repeater? Get 2x Asus RT-N13U (B1)

 

[JuGGa]

After having experience with couple of TP link routers, I can vouch for their credibility. For instance, a basic 1k tplink router beats my N13u completely in range. I haven't used the exact model you mentioned, but even I've read good reviews about it.

 

[d6bmg]

After having experience with couple of TP link routers, I can vouch for their credibility. For instance, a basic 1k tplink router beats my N13u completely in range. I haven't used the exact model you mentioned, but even I've read good reviews about it.

Range depends on the strength of the wireless antenna you are using. There are several antenna available which are so strong that it can totally blank your neighborhood. (Using those antennas are not legally permitted)

IMO, tp-link is a cheap company, period.

 

[blr_p]

I havent been able to survey her house, honestly I cant all the way there just for the survey. All they want is internet connectivity in the entire house.

Get somebody else to do it then. Else you won't get an optimal solution.

Start with a floor layout.

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Like I said earlier money is not an issue for her, so she would happily spend if its worth it.

Exactly