OC & Modding OCing - Isn't cheating ?

motxz

Disciple
Hi

I have a very simple question... If any particular Proc is capable of performing at high speed then why the manufacturers are rating it lower .. allowing all OCing by using extra components, costly mobos, rams etc.. :(

Don't you feel it a blind cheating by the Manufacturers..be it Intel/ AMD. Isn't it a gimmick and creating hype for more costly hardware requirement?

Any opinions here
 
Not really.

It does cost Intel / AMD the exact same to Manufacture the lowest end product, to the Highest. But ofcourse, for better stuff you have to pay a premium.

Lets take an eg. of AMD.

X2 3800+ and X2 4800+ cost the exact same to manufacture. (Talking only about Hardware manufacturing prices), The better yields go for the 4800+ and the tad lower yields become the 3800+.

If your lucky, 3800+ will also have good yields and youll be able to reach 4800+ Speeds, with comparatively low Voltage.

Whatever you say, its not "Cheating" by the manufacturers. Its Marketting :p.
 
You cant call it exactly cheating. The manufacturers usally design a processor for highest rated speed but usually only few proccy make it so they rate the speed lower than the original speed. Overclocking usually involves pumping up little bit voltage and getting the desired speed. This can also be done by a manufacurer but then the proccy life may be reduced and also the standard heatsink will not be enough.

So instead of wasting the entire proccy they sell it at reduced rates at reduced speeds.

Intel goes a step further and sells the bad pentium batch as celeron. It aint exactly bad but its not upto the mark to achieve a particular speed. I think AMD is also doing it these days with sempron line of processors
 
You can't call it cheating. Because the lower priced parts are not always gauranteed to reach higher speeds. Also, it would probably cost more to buy a lower end CPU and OC it to the highest speeds, than to buy the higher model itself. This is cause to OC the cheaper cpu, you're likely to feed it higher voltages, which means a better SMPS. Also, the temps will rise, thus requiring better ( and more expensive ) cooling solutions.
 
i think its marketing coz there needs to be a processor for every customers budget.. and if the customer is aware of how to overclock he can get better RAM and a better motherboard and compensate with a lower clocked CPu .. then by ocing u get the desired speed of a higher clocked cpu ... its a balancing act.. its a boon to a customer that CPU's can be overclocked .. u can save a lot of money .. and with good motherboards at lower prices things look good ..its not cheating .. its the range of a product .. a mid range cpu can be overclocked to a mid-high range cpu ... it cant compete with the top of the line cpus coz it will lack several other features... ocin is sqeezin juice out of the procesoor not giving it steroids
 
Yeah, people in the trade call is cross-subsidisation. Charge a premium on one section of customers and provide lower charges for the rest. Demand - Yield also plays an important factor in the issue.

Raghu.
 
Yes from the lowest to the highest model within the same core/architecture - it costs a company the same amount to manufacture a processor. But NO, they are not cheating.

The way they categorise it into different models is based on:

- Clock Speed. Some can do higher clock speeds, some cannot

- TDP. Processors are graded keeping their TDP in mind, even if they pass the higher speeds but fail to stay within the thermal envelope, they're graded down to lower speeds.

- EE and FX editions. These are cream of the crop chips, carefully selected from a wafer (usually the middle) and have in general slightly more stringent tests (but much larger premiums).

Now lets go back up and analyse how those various segments influence overclocking:

- Clock Speed:

Lets say a manufacture(AMD) has a batch of 100 processors made(Athlon64), and 90 of them are able to do 2.4Ghz(3800+ rating) and fall within the TDP envelope as well.

We know a 3800+ is significantly expensive, and not many people can afford it. As a result, common market scenario will have more A64 3000+'s being sold rather than A64 3800+'s. How does the manufacturer keep up with the demand? - By simply re-labeling the 3800+'s as 3000+'s and selling it. Some of the lucky customers get these re-rated 3000+'s and are able to overclock to the 3800+ ratings with little or no effort ;)

The fact that most OC'ers refer to good "Steppings/Batches" when choosing a processor should hold a candle to this theory.

- TDP:

A proccy can do a particular speed, but doesnt fall within the TDP envelope. End result is under the higher speeds, the proccy puts out higher amounts of heat/increased temps. Here, you need to invest in a good cooler/heatsink to negate this effect.

- EE/FX chips:

These chips are only intended to serve as revenue boosters for a company, and are usually targetted at those with absolutely no budget. Most of the extreme OC'ers tend to buy these chips for that last bit of performance they can squeeze out from a chip.

Now about the hardware requirements:

- Good Motherboads: This requirement was brought up primarily when processors started coming with their multiplier locked, as a result boards capable of higher HTT/FSB speeds came into use. Earlier, even with a useless motherboard you could always increase your multiplier and get the higher speeds (Processor Speed = FrontSideBus Speed x Multiplier).

Also for those looking for the additional tweaks like increasing FSB speeds for those proc speeds not falling within the exact range of a multiplier, PCI/AGP locks.. plus the added vCore, vDimm options.

- Good RAM : Good RAM can always be used on non-OC'ed systems as well! The reason OC'ers need it, is to keep it in sync with the increased FSB speeds. Increased RAM speeds also help with increasing the memory bandwidth over the standardised speeds. Now-a-days with memory dividers, you can make do with mediocre memory and get away with overclocking your FSB without your memory holding you back.

- Good PSU's : This is a bit of a misnomer. Personally I feel , ANY system regardless of whether it is OC'ed or not should be treated to a good PSU.
 
zhopudey said:
You can't call it cheating. Because the lower priced parts are not always gauranteed to reach higher speeds. Also, it would probably cost more to buy a lower end CPU and OC it to the highest speeds, than to buy the higher model itself. This is cause to OC the cheaper cpu, you're likely to feed it higher voltages, which means a better SMPS. Also, the temps will rise, thus requiring better ( and more expensive ) cooling solutions.

Lol zhops u sure abt that. So it would be better to go for a FX-60 or instead OC an Opty 165 to that speed :p
 
i would say getting the oced opty is better....

1. if u have good RAM ... (which u can get if u get an opty coz saves lotsa cash) u dont let it sleep around and u can optimise the ram's true potential

2.u can get faster HTT speeds which i know doesnt make any difference... but still marginal

3.optys dont heat much ..which means there arent really any SIDE effects to OCin it...

what we get in the end is top end performance from the comp as a whole rather than top end performance from only the CPU
 
^ HTT speeds are normally maintained at =< 2000Mhz DDR. If you notice, while overclocking the HTT speed, you always have to drop the HTT multiplier to keep it within the 2Ghz spec.

Overclocking the HTT bus does nothing to boost performance. On the contrary, if you overclock it too high it could start generating errors and affect performance.
 
hunt3r said:
Lol zhops u sure abt that. So it would be better to go for a FX-60 or instead OC an Opty 165 to that speed :p
No, my point is that a FX-60 will work @ full speed even on a Rs 2K foxconn board, with stock cooler :tongue: But to OC the 165, you'll need a much better mobo, and hsf.

Not that I'll advice anyone to put a fx60 on a foxconn, but that was just for arguments sake :p
 
i think the point isnt about the fx 60 staying cooler... the point is that it costs much lesser getting an opty and a cooling solution than gettin a single fx 60 with a stock cooler... i would get myself an opty and a peltier or water cooling solution for the price of one fx 60 ... but i am amd specific here.. i wouldnt do the same with an intel

and yes the HTT doesnt do anything... i must not have said that... i am still a padawan when it comes to the LDT BUS:) in fact i had to drop my htt multiplier to get higher ocs
 
one question doesn anyone on TE have a peltier cooler? .. its a power hogger but still it does a helluva good job at cooling
 
OMG!!! Eddy is on a super posting spree today... pity I cant rep you again :p ....

If someone can rep eddy's post, it will be good :p .....
 
well eddy's post gave some wonderful insight into the whole batching of processors and pricing .. not to mention testbeds.. great post..
 
shrey said:
one question doesn anyone on TE have a peltier cooler? .. its a power hogger but still it does a helluva good job at cooling

You really need one? Lemme know. Ive seen some good ones here. If you are really interested i will gather more information.

Ocing isnt cheating unless you break something while trying to get to that 3GHz barrier and then claim warranty on it, feigning ignorace when asked by the support personnel on what happened to the proccie/mobo/graphics card/ram/power supply.

Raghu.
 
no i really cant afford one besides my processor doesnt need that kind of cooling .. my cpu doesnt deserve it...jus wanted to know if people on the forum have it:) ..
 
Crazy_Eddy said:
^ HTT speeds are normally maintained at =< 2000Mhz DDR. If you notice, while overclocking the HTT speed, you always have to drop the HTT multiplier to keep it within the 2Ghz spec.

Overclocking the HTT bus does nothing to boost performance. On the contrary, if you overclock it too high it could start generating errors and affect performance.
Err eddy its 2000 million transactions per second not 2GHz :).
 
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