Pak would nuke us if attacked

young volatile pm's..

well thats precisely why one should not have them. war is not an answer to anything. Look what a young volatile bush did in Iraq,

war is no joke and Pak army is no joke also. There seems to be this misconception that india can "take them out" in a one night raid. frankly thats not the case. even if the battle is a conventinal battle, it will still drag on for weeks. and pakistan army is not getting cornered anytime soon. in all warfares there is covert backing which in this case, heaven forbid, will be chinas to them. From where we get the backing is open question. I am sure in present environment we can expect diplomatic backing from US(which is dependant upon what started the war). Backing from Russia is outta the question apart from rhetoric. they are having a poor time in chechnya anyway. (almost same situation as we have in Kashmir)

One must not forget that the last thing India wants in a muslim vs religion battle. US can live with that we cannot.

And one of the most ridiculous stements made above...

"why india doesn't take the offence and we defend" well the pakistan army resorts to torture too. Infact in kargil they sent mutilated bodies of our soldiers back. you mean to say if they resort to this, we resort to same thing. Then whats the diff between us and them? Nothing annoys a person more if you remain civilized even when they try to provoke you. Agreed there are and should be limits to what can be tolerated, and even when the lines are crossed, there are diplomatic ways of isolating and showing reason. War will is not an option at the moment.
 
"why india doesn't take the offence and we defend" well the pakistan army resorts to torture too. Infact in kargil they sent mutilated bodies of our soldiers back. you mean to say if they resort to this, we resort to same thing. Then whats the diff between us and them? Nothing annoys a person more if you remain civilized even when they try to provoke you. Agreed there are and should be limits to what can be tolerated, and even when the lines are crossed, there are diplomatic ways of isolating and showing reason. War will is not an option at the moment.
Click to expand...

This part was stressed in Lakshya.... one of the better Hindo movies.... Amitabh Bachchan is the commander and one of his soldiers is very tempted to mutilate one of the Pakistani's bodies.... but he restrain him saying that we cant stoop to that level.

I agree with that.

But I also feel that we need a more aggressive PM.

What was the harm in taking back some of the territory that rightfully belongs to us in the 99 Kargil war?? we were in a good position to do thaat.......
 
and start a war.. remember officially pak army was not involved(unofficially it was the highland division of pakistan army dressed as "mujahiddenn"(read whatever you want to.. terrorists)

taking back territory would mean violating loc by indian armed forces(unless we also sed the "mujahideen" in which case we would be condescending to their level
 
aces are u sure ur an indian ? i dont think so coz u dont seem to know THAT WE HAVE LOST MORE THAN A FEW MILES OF KASHMIR TO PAKISTAN , sry for caps , i know this coz my colledge is PAKILAND and i asked one guy where he was frm and he is like "im frm kashmir" and i was like "erm ok , im not good at my geography but isnt kashmir part of india ?" and he said "for me its not" , why do u think im getting so stressed out here ? see guys this is what im talking about , we have had ENUF of diplomatic bullshit and political responses frm our side while pakistan nicely having a pakistandefence forum and in the strat section nicely discussing which part of india to nuke , guys omg i dunoo how 2 say it , uall will call me rascist , BUT THEY DONT REALLY SEEM TO CARE IF WHOLE PAKISTAN DIES COZ THEY FEEL ITS A SACRIFICE TO GOD !!!!! , its a jihad for them , and indian army can wipe out pakistan but ur right that pervez will have something on his mind which can either be a last resort nuke or china backing them WHICH WONT HAPPEN , china wont mingle coz if it does other countries wont just stand there staring . and if all this happens the un will come in da way and either stop the war or tell china to backoff . and did i hear some1 say indias economy wont survive a full scale attack ? accha so ur trying to say after they attacking us in 1998 and we spent millions of dollars in equipment and defence and re habilitation of nuclears will boost our economy ? get ur facts straight . all these years ive been hearing "must be be like them ?" "are we terrorists ?" "war is not the answer" , " peace ftw" , IM NOT SAYING ATTACK THEM , im just trying to say that if they Attack INDIA then we should not ONLY defend but ATTACK THEM AS WELL , we dont wanna capture pakistan coz there are too many social factors involved , but atleast we should teach them war is not a toy game ? the best part pervez will do is call the war a JIHAD so alll muslims will be part of it and we all will keep saying "defend defend" , they have a MOTIVE and we DONT and any1 who has a MOTIVE will do ANYTHING to achieve it .

and the young volatile bush did the right thing to iraq , and every1 knows that only thing that the media has taken his case , safin if people felt he had done something bad he wudnt have won the election AGAIN by such a big margin , iraqi people themselves were happy that they are now a democracy , and iraq and kashmir are two diff things , iraq was about torture done by saddam hussain , kashmir is about pakistan making all attempts to attack india with a strong motive while india are doing NOTHING . i know war is not a joke and im not saying we should attack but if they put one foot forward we should make them take 2 feet back . that territory is OURS and pakistan has no right over it . we are just bowing down to their every demand just to avoid a war , its crap .

ps : guys sry for my offensive language just that in nottingham there are many pakistanis and its the same situation here , india vs pak , both communities b**ch about each other , my frnds hate them and the other way round as well . plus britishers hate pakis as well :D , just that i love my country :)

oh and by the way , just incase some of u were interested :-
MSN India - Pak Generals planned to attack US: Benazir
 
lemme say that i never said bush did the bad thing from US point of view. every country has his own motives and own foreign policy. For US war on Ira was the right thing to do for they get to control the oil plus have another(hopefully) american controlled governemnt.. (they will try their best anyway)

As far as torture goes, well there are more horrendous regimes in the world(north korea?) you would have tht that if the motive is to cleanse evil you would start with the evilest. Anyway nobody is defending saddam. but war to take him out has created a situtaion where you are staring at a civil war(latest rand reports confirms this) and frankly the future of the country is uncertain.

Coming back to Kashmir, easiest thing is to sit anywhere in India and say guys they took the territory, lets take them out. Is it so simple. Ok my father has commanded in kashmir. Its no secret that the major valley population is not India's friends. they believe irrespective of whatever work we do for them or financial aid we throw at them that we are the terrorists(i don't know if you watched this.. but a question time india 3 years back from kashmir hosted by vikram chandra came on BBC. When asked whom do you blame for kashmir trouble, 100% votes were for India(eg us are to be blamed) surprizingly no one said pakistan.

Its not an easy situation we have in the valley. due to some fault of ours(heavy corruption) and some very good strategy ok pakistan ISI wing to create an atmosphere of fear in our armed forces and indulging in ethinic clensing, they created a situtaion where our soldiers adopted the same heavy handed approach as you just talked about. (read putting people in jail for suspicion, taking people for questioning) won't blame our troops you will do the same, they have been driven to this by the strikes on them. Anyway what this meant was that the kashmiris got further against us(as for them its our troops that are heavy handed)

If you know the modusoprendi of the terrorists, if there is a civilian casualty(of the religios faith .. you know which) there are leaflets next day apologizing all over the valley saying they are sorry and the attack was meant for Indians and not them.

The point of all this is that its a tricky situation out there. Pakistan in the 90's has created a situation where majority kashmir valley thinks that we are the persons to be blamed for everything wrong there.(well abdullahs are to be blamed anyway not to forget that the elections were always rigged there before the 2000 one..) and now we have to look to build trust and thats what CBM's are. ofcourse terrorists and ISI has its own plans and thats what we have to prevent. but if you are thinking we are going to start a war and take territory back.. i am afraid 1) no one will support you 2) you are forgettting that the people in that"territory" aren't your friends exactly and are not gonna like the so called forceful occupation(which is how they will take it if taken by force)
 
The problem is we are too nice.

Do you know that during the Kargil conflict, the army was not allowed to use flame throwers?

Why? Because for a Muslim, being burnt (whether alive or even a dead body) is equivalent to being sent straight to hell.

Our army has to worry about such $hit. If they had used flame throwers, the stupid clerics would have had a field day. It is alos why we did not attack after the parliament incident - they did not think they could handle the domestic "our religion comes first" crowd.

And Safin, I have said before - CBMs require that they respond! Yet I have not found a single instance where they have acquiesced to our requests in a straight forward manner, while we have bent backwards several times. They still haven't accorded us MFN status AFAIK, which is in fact a WTO requirement! Yet our government is unwilling to take this up at the WTO for fear of upsetting Pakistan.

We need to follow a carrot and stick policy.

Unfortunately, for years we followed a no-carrot-no-stick policy.

Today we seem to be following a carrot-honey-icecream-and-cookies-but-definitely-no-stick policy.
 
Agree wid few of ur points Safin ..

Been thinkin for quite some time now that how come Indian thinktank is sooo cool abt the POK issue..

I dnt think Indian admin wd hv been the same if Pak wd hv done the same wid lets say Punjab/Rajasthan/Gujrat .. i.e the bordering states..

A close uncle of mine who served in the Army told me that ppl in the valley hv got posters of Pak politicians .. some even wd keep the Paki flags ..

So clearly .. India is not a favourite amongst them ..

I guess India needs to get their confidence back .. and shd make efforts for that ..
 
whether the kashmiris like it or not they should realise kashmir will always b part of india , half of the kashmiri's are terrorists themselves and the other half are their relatives so what do u expect ? we should now bow down .
 
complete OT : . . . i play a lot of strategic games....AOE series, RA series..the thing is i dont go expanding the whole map without any plan....but if any army attacks my empire..they're history.....i would completey destry their army with my allies & take full control over their territory...

this is the kind of attitute our PM shd have....i know comparing a real life scnerio to a game is ridiculous...but still...
i know u guys will lol over this....but think abt this...me too fed up of this bullcrap...eversince i was born this is being happening wihtout any hopes of end...either we shd end it or they shd end it ...( :rofl: )
 
Yeah maybe Microsoft could set up a server for a lan play between Bush, Musharraf and Manmohan in Aoe3 and it gets aired live on CNN.

The looser is nuked.

lol sorry i had to say that!

But i agree, its being said in the thread all along. India is always the one to 'retaliate' and win in defenses. Pak should be taught that India isn't an open door for terrorism.
 
I havent read all posts. but here are the facts.

Pakistan cant use its nuclear weapon even if its on the brink of defeat. Even if country is defeated it needs to be rebuilt in the future. Noone will help pakistan if they use nuke. No country will use nuke no matter what. Specially not in todays world and definitely not the country like Pakistan which is surviving purely on the external help these days.

The future war is just matter of time. The india-pakistan struggle will end with war. I hate to say this but I dont see purely diplomatic solution here.
I see 2 solutions,
1. India Pakistan war
2. Civil war taking apart pakistan.

Those are the only 2 solutions i see.
I really hope there will be diplomatic solution but its highly unlikely. Its just ticking time bomb waiting to go off.
Pakistani army and airforce is totally outgunned at this moment. Pakistan cant survive any full scale war in near future, and not in another 25 years. If war happens in this period result is obvious.

Its good for India that pakistan now stays pakistan forever. Those who say there wont be pakistan left or see dreams of united India should keep dreaming. That part of world is socially and economically soo much behind it will be drag on rest of the country.

Human history tells one unfortunate thing. It takes war to settle issues and differences between humans. Its sad truth of humanity.
Its took 2 world wars and several civil wars to finally bring some sort of stability in most of the europe. It took a civil war to make great america, it took civil war to make USSR, took cold war to break USSR, took kinda civil war to make china a nation it is today. It will take 1 decisive war to end India pakistan differences.
 
params7 said:
Yeah maybe Microsoft could set up a server for a lan play between Bush, Musharraf and Manmohan in Aoe3 and it gets aired live on CNN.

The looser is nuked.

l
Click to expand...
i know that i typed was ridiculous...it was a joke that i said just like that....but theres' a lot of truth in saying just...
 
Well said Funky....

And while in some ways I agree with you on this
Funky said:
Pakistan cant use its nuclear weapon even if its on the brink of defeat. Even if country is defeated it needs to be rebuilt in the future. Noone will help pakistan if they use nuke. No country will use nuke no matter what. Specially not in todays world and definitely not the country like Pakistan which is surviving purely on the external help these days.
Click to expand...
the thing is, the Islamic extremists dont think that way.

If they get control of Pak and its nukes, they wont think so much. They are not interested in developement anyway. All they want is to wipe out the non-Muslims from the face of the planet. They wont care of the world will help them or not.
 
I am aware but noone, not even al quaida is stupid enough to use nuclear weapon. The results of nuclear disaster does not affect the perticular region, it affects the whole world including those who use it. The only place where they will even think or plan to use nuclear weapon is actiually inside USA. That wont affect rest of the world directly. But use it in ASIA or EU the results will be so inormous that it will affect multiple countries including the islamic countries in this region. And i mean direct nuclear radiation and nuclear dust effects.

And in worse case senario if there arise a situation of unrest in pakistan US or NATO will first take out the pakistani nuclear sites just to ensure those nukes dont fall in wrong hand.

Nuclear war is not as big threat to us as it is to say USA. This region is densely populated one and with many muslim nations around India. Even extrimist will think twice using nukes here. Now if they are stupid enough to use nukes here then let their god save them and give them some common sense.

The most likely nuclear threat in this region is in the form of accedent than weapon strike :p
 
Thanks to Countries/People of same faith, India will never attack its neighbours!!:)

And you'll think there is only one enemy!!

Its like kisi ke kandhe pe bandook laga le nishaana lagana- as Safin rightly said!!:p

Its not abt borders, its abt faith!!

People say-
Azhar got kicked out- why- coz he was not majority!!:rofl:
Why did tsunami happen- coz someone didnt believe in our faith!!:rofl:

No matter what the actual reason is, faith will be dragged in to mess everything!!

Kashmir is good the way it is-we can defend well from within that and are better off that way!!

We take what was once ours, we lose peace, economic stability,...:no:

We give what they want, they will want whats next in line!!:rofl:

So i say, let things be the way they are!!

And believe me when i say they will want next in line, i mean it!!
Some states like one of the largest, have more converts, who are absolutely illiterate and mislead in their places of meeting, and totally gung ho abt this conflict!!:no:
And its not exactly their fault either!!

Let me narrate one of the most horrific incidents in my life!!

A tale of 3 mechanics- Tom, Dick and Harry- at a reputed dealership/service centre!!
Me= TOM, is new there!!
Tom knows that Dick and Harry are from the largest state here, so presumes they are of same faith as they talk abt hometown where they come from!!

One fine day, Dick ad harry request supervisor for early leave- time for prayers!!

Tom- how come u guys of ur faith when u are from so-so place!!
Dick/Harry- we always were!!
Tom- means!!
D/H- arey man!! what was here in India 200yrs back!!
Tom- confused- what??
D/H- arey- Brit rule man!!
Tom- so!!
D/h- and before that, what was here!!
Tom- now acting dumb- what??
D/H- Mughals dude!!
Tom- so!!
D/H- so we are of that faith!! Most are!!
Tom's supervisor(same faith as Tom)- furious- so you mean that my grandpop was ur faith and we converted to what we are today!!:rofl: D/H- at least we were taught abt ours in the religious school we went to!!

Now others join in!!

Discussion on who's what and history and blah blah...

I am not getting into details as it was really very gory!!

Some survey had said there are maximum religious schools in one of the largest states of India!!
And now with news of Training camps, sleeping teams,...

And thats where education comes in- though from the right places!!:p

I have close pals from a faith diff from mine and we celebrate everything together!!
Anyways, i believe Religions are paths chosen to reach the same destination!!
You take to a path by birth and later may take to something else coz u like it better!!
So why should it matter to anyone what path one takes!!

I prefer the older twisty route to PUne, Maybe Darky/Harshal will prefer the expressway coz its faster and they can let their Skoda/Honda rip!! :rofl:

Else u will find urself in Tom's place too!!:no:

so i think, things are good the way they are!!:cool2:

Believe me, they can only become worse!!:no:

BTW, 'Nukes or no Nukes', one always creates a mess and invites trouble when one 'Pukes'!!
We did several years back and we have to 'pay for/ clean up' the mess we created!!;) :cool2:
 
direct nuclear radiation and nuclear dust effects.
Click to expand...

Um, dude, modern nuclear boms don't have a fallout. Many are designed to prevent such, so that the invading armies can enter sooner. Also, ever heard of neutron bombs? Which are nothing but radiation? The effect of which is over immediately? This does not spread except over the targeted region
 
well no one is talking targetted strikes here. its maximum destruction bombs that will be used if its to "wipe out" countries and those will have fallout

as far as the al quaida goes, they would love to use any bomb, unfortunately nuclear bomb is not a cracker you can burst. Chances of they having the knowhow is nil to burst one. Irrespective of whether some sypathisers exist in pak army, none of them has complete knowledge to detonate a bomb on their own(unless all of the nuclear command defects which is unlikely)

There is this common misconception aabout pakistan disintegrating. well thats not happeningas long as long as army is in charge and it usually is always. Pak army is one of the most disciplined one in the world and certainly no joke. they can control any civil wars as much as we can(we have as many people fighting for free countries here)

And kk frankly pak army is no longer a rollover as they were in 71. they may not be on par with us, but their airforce and esp navy has improved a lot and can offer a very good defence for any offensive strike

the us/nato support will depend on who starts the war. If its India then you can forget any support(even if we have reasons for starting eg a terror strike.. they will always preach restraint.. ) if pakistan starts as it did in kargil then yes us will intervene(like clinton summoned sharif during kargil) but otherwise you are gonna be a loner.
 
This is what would happen

> > INDO-PAK WAR...

> > Pak army decides to launch a Nuke-missile towards India... They don't

need

> > any permission from their government, and promptly launch the missile.

> > Indian technology is highly advanced. In less than 8 seconds, Indian

army

> > detects it and decides to launch a missile in retribution. But they need

> > permission from The Government of India. They submit their request to

the

> > Indian President.

> > The President forwards it to the Cabinet. The Prime Minister calls an

> > emergency Lok Sabha (i.e., LS) session. After three days, when the LS

> > meets, due to several walkouts and severe protest by the opposition, it

> > gets adjourned indefinitely. The President asks for a quick decision.

> > In the meantime, the Pak missile failed to take off due to unknown

> > reasons. Their attempts for a relaunch are still on.

> > Meanwhile, the Indian ruling party is reduced to minority because a

party,

> > giving outside support, withdraws support. Therefore, its first task is

> > now to get majority. The President asks the PM to prove majority within

a

> > week. Meanwhile, an external affairs spokesman requests Pak for some

> > bilateral talks, at the secretary and minister levels.

> > Next week, as the ruling party was not able to get confidence vote, a

> > caretaker government is installed. The acting PM decides to permit the

> > armed forces to launch the Nuclear Missile. But the Election Commission

> > says that a caretaker government cannot take such a decision because

> > elections are at hand and this decision might affect the swing of votes

in

> > the election.

> > A PIL (Public Interest Litigation) is filed in the Supreme Court of

India,

> > alleging misuse of power by the Election commission. The Supreme Court

> > comes to the rescue of the PM, and says the acting PM is authorized to

> > take this decision, in the interests of the nation.

> > In between, one of the Pak missiles successfully took off, but it fell

367

> > miles away from the target on a government building at 11:00 AM. But

there

> > were no casualties since no employee had reached the office by then. In

> > any case, the nuclear core of missile had detached some where in flight.

> > Pakistan army is now trying to get better technologies from China and

USA.

> > US condemns the use of a nuclear missile by Pakistan, and offers to send

> > its seventh fleet in Indian Ocean. The Indian government, wary of the

> > move, declines. The Indian government finally decides to launch a

nuclear

> > missile, after convening an all party meeting. This time all the parties

> > agree.

> > It's three months since the army had sought permission.

> > But this time, some "pro-humanity", "anti-nuclear" activists come on

road

> > against the government's decision. Human chains are being made in

> > CA, LA and Washington for peace. Many E-mails are sent to Indians

> > condemning the government and mentioning

> > "Please forward it to as many Indians as

> > possible."

> >

> > On the Pakistan side, the missiles keep failing. Some time they fail to

> > take-off, some time the payload gets detached from the missile during

> > flight. Some missiles deviate from target due to technical failures or

> > high-speed wind blowing over Rajasthan, these missiles are neutralized

by

> > Pak itself, as these missiles are now moving backwards towards Karachi.

> > A missile (smuggled from USA) is used. Since Pakistan army is unable to

> > understand its software, it hits its original destination: Russia.

> > Russians successfully intercept the missile and in retaliation, launch a

> > nuclear missile towards Islamabad. (Note: Russian missiles never fail.)

> > The missile hits the target and creates havoc. Pakistan cries for help.

It

> > asks for loans from the IMF and the World Bank. India expresses deep

> > regrets for what had happened and sends in a million dollar worth of

> > soaps.

> > So in the end, India never got to launch the missile. Pak never got it

> > right and got themselves screwed. Indian Diplomacy at its best!

> > Conclusion reached by the DOD: Kashmir is now no longer a dangerous

> > flashpoint, and they turn their attention towards Osama Bin Laden! And

> > they lived happily ever after.
 
@hunt3r : ^^ whoa...where did u get it from.?? u typed it yourself....nice work dude....write to some newspaper....;)
BTW,,,yes...usually this type happens....no wonder our govt is all nuked up already..
 
hunt3r said:
This is what would happen

> > INDO-PAK WAR...
> > Pak army decides to launch a Nuke-missile towards India... They don't
need
> > any permission from their government, and promptly launch the missile.
> > Indian technology is highly advanced. In less than 8 seconds, Indian
army
> > detects it and decides to launch a missile in retribution. But they need
> > permission from The Government of India. They submit their request to
the
> > Indian President.
> > The President forwards it to the Cabinet. The Prime Minister calls an
> > emergency Lok Sabha (i.e., LS) session. After three days, when the LS
> > meets, due to several walkouts and severe protest by the opposition, it
> > gets adjourned indefinitely. The President asks for a quick decision.
> > In the meantime, the Pak missile failed to take off due to unknown
> > reasons. Their attempts for a relaunch are still on.
> > Meanwhile, the Indian ruling party is reduced to minority because a
party,
> > giving outside support, withdraws support. Therefore, its first task is
> > now to get majority. The President asks the PM to prove majority within
a
> > week. Meanwhile, an external affairs spokesman requests Pak for some
> > bilateral talks, at the secretary and minister levels.
> > Next week, as the ruling party was not able to get confidence vote, a
> > caretaker government is installed. The acting PM decides to permit the
> > armed forces to launch the Nuclear Missile. But the Election Commission
> > says that a caretaker government cannot take such a decision because
> > elections are at hand and this decision might affect the swing of votes
in
> > the election.
> > A PIL (Public Interest Litigation) is filed in the Supreme Court of
India,
> > alleging misuse of power by the Election commission. The Supreme Court
> > comes to the rescue of the PM, and says the acting PM is authorized to
> > take this decision, in the interests of the nation.
> > In between, one of the Pak missiles successfully took off, but it fell
367
> > miles away from the target on a government building at 11:00 AM. But
there
> > were no casualties since no employee had reached the office by then. In
> > any case, the nuclear core of missile had detached some where in flight.
> > Pakistan army is now trying to get better technologies from China and
USA.
> > US condemns the use of a nuclear missile by Pakistan, and offers to send
> > its seventh fleet in Indian Ocean. The Indian government, wary of the
> > move, declines. The Indian government finally decides to launch a
nuclear
> > missile, after convening an all party meeting. This time all the parties
> > agree.
> > It's three months since the army had sought permission.
> > But this time, some "pro-humanity", "anti-nuclear" activists come on
road
> > against the government's decision. Human chains are being made in
> > CA, LA and Washington for peace. Many E-mails are sent to Indians
> > condemning the government and mentioning
> > "Please forward it to as many Indians as
> > possible."
> >
> > On the Pakistan side, the missiles keep failing. Some time they fail to
> > take-off, some time the payload gets detached from the missile during
> > flight. Some missiles deviate from target due to technical failures or
> > high-speed wind blowing over Rajasthan, these missiles are neutralized
by
> > Pak itself, as these missiles are now moving backwards towards Karachi.
> > A missile (smuggled from USA) is used. Since Pakistan army is unable to
> > understand its software, it hits its original destination: Russia.
> > Russians successfully intercept the missile and in retaliation, launch a
> > nuclear missile towards Islamabad. (Note: Russian missiles never fail.)
> > The missile hits the target and creates havoc. Pakistan cries for help.
It
> > asks for loans from the IMF and the World Bank. India expresses deep
> > regrets for what had happened and sends in a million dollar worth of
> > soaps.
> > So in the end, India never got to launch the missile. Pak never got it
> > right and got themselves screwed. Indian Diplomacy at its best!
> > Conclusion reached by the DOD: Kashmir is now no longer a dangerous
> > flashpoint, and they turn their attention towards Osama Bin Laden! And
> > they lived happily ever after.
Click to expand...
Tht was kewl post
I think Indian political system sucks:mad:
These politicians shud think of the country at least when u have to go to war
I dont know if it will ever improve tho.
We need sum ppl from this forum to take up politics to make the sytem rite
 
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