Forum Feedback Pictures in market

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cranky

Juggernaut
Hi,

Quick clarifications on rule no. 2 in the amended rules in Market section.

1. Does this mean that a trade without a pic is considered invalid?

I don't have a camera or other means to take a pic (maybe I personally do, maybe I don't, maybe I do and it doesn't work - the question is of the principle). I'm willing to let the buyer inspect the goods to his satisfaction, in action at a mutually convenient time. Heck I give my stuff for test drives before closing the deal.

How is a picture relevant in such a situation? It may help the sale, but does its absence suggest intention to dupe? In any case members do request pics from time to time, and sellers do oblige (I refuse many times, because the camera I have available makes everything look worse than it really is).

2. What is the meaning of 'clearly visible'? Is it a specification thing, is it an indication? Do we need to photograph one side, both sides, multiple angles?

I totally get the need of putting the member handle and date IF the pictures are a necessity - but I don't see that they are. The kind of stuff we trade on this forum - photographs aren't indicative of abuse and damage.

And if we are ruthless anyway (I've seen the big thread on that phone deal), we can find all sorts of ways to cheat people, if we really wanted to.

Back to the question: what is the picture supposed to prove (or prevent) that it is mandated by rule?

Thanks for the response.

Edit: If responding to a WTB post, is a picture mandated? It would seem from the rule that such a step is necessary as well!
 
^^i to agree with sangram...even i got only a 2mp phone camera...cnt take clear pics with all details with tht..:(.
does pics are necessary if the buyer gets full support n details on phone, bills etc....mean if buyer is ready to take it...with d details the seller provides??
 
Rule 2.

Question 1 : Yes, after 23rd, trades without pics will be considered invalid.

Look we cannot give exceptions for 1 person or special case. This rule was introduced after lots of thoughts and consideration and is there to help buyers identify and validate product.

And also to make sure you actually have possession of product with you while making a thread.

Question 2 : Clearly visible means pic should be good enough to make out the product and name tags. Does not mean it has to be pic form high quality digital camera. Even cell phone cams will do. Just product and name / date should be visible and identifiable. And yes 2 pics from different angles/views.

Beg, borrow, steal camera for few minutes, does not matter. The penetration of digital camera / camera phone is good now even in India.

All these are standard practices everywhere. Till now we delayed it on TE fearing low penetration of camera. But thats honestly not the case. Tell a friend will phone cam to come over for 5 mins, ask neighbors for a little favor. Its not that difficult.
 
The question wasn't about exceptions to the rule or personal difficulty of getting photographs, or even solutions of how to get a photo. There are ways to do everything, I agree.

The question is what is this rule is supposed to prevent or do, which you answered reasonably comprehensively. Except that for both the issues, it's easy to fake things and IMO a picture doesn't help in such a situation.

The real issue is not tackled by a picture, unfortunately. Which was my only point, illustrated by the clear lack of applicability if I was offering something in a WTB thread, for example. By nature of its absence in that specific example, the rule is somewhat arbitrary. I can understand it not being applicable for GOs (where the organiser does not have the product in hand) or Dealers section (where the dealer does, but it's the same as buying offline).

In any case, I will try and abide by the decision, except that I still don't agree with its somewhat fickle nature.
 
I use a temporary w700i w/o autofocus- does an ok job. :)
http://www.techenclave.com/market/fs-120mm-led-fans-106305.html
http://www.techenclave.com/market/big-6600gt-pcie-128mb-ddr3-factory-110772.html
http://www.techenclave.com/market/coolermaster-hyper-tx-socket-754-939-a-110596.html

Earlier, i have asked friends(with cam phones) to drop in for some pics and mail it to me to post in the FS thread. :)

p.s. for WTB or offers via PM etc., i have asked people to PM/mail me the pics and everyone till date has obliged- thanks to all of them. :)

For cpu/gpu, i take a full screenie of cpuZ/gpuZ with the date showing in the right hand corner and maybe the 'mycomp>props' window and maybe a pic of the inside of the case showing the mobo and cooler if insisted upon and if the cpu/gpu is in use at that time.
Gpu can be taken out for a moment for the pic.
Cpu should not be- though i don't even mind that. :P

HDD maybe clicked in situ- better- will show how bad the airflow is and how dusty it is. :lol:
And HDtach/HDtune is great- i think many ask for HDtach reports while buying a hdd. :)

ODD really doesn't matter unless someone wants to see the condition of the bezel :P
 
i think its a good move , considering the amount of deals on TE the number of people it becomes impossible . tell me FUNKY like if i want to sell in a HDD in my PC :D . can we have hdtune + hdtach shots + te opened in the background :) with the current date being seen on TE types ??? . just clarifying :) proves actual possession and the good health of it.
 
a pic is pointless for a lot of things- like a CPU for example, even optical /HDD's

If i were selling a CPU, i certainly wouldnt bother taking apart my HSF just to take a pic which would neither help me not the buyer.

but still, a pic sure helps in the majority of cases :)
 
2. You must provide 2 clearly visible pictures of the product along with your TE username and date written by hand on a piece of paper next to the product.
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Written by hand part is there for a reason. think about it. ;)

Nothing is full proof. But these things are there to make things better.

You are making a sale. take some efforts to make it more authentic and assuring for person looking to buy the items.

TE market has huge traffic and too many people that even I dont know. Thats why these steps are there.

And trust me. It will help you a lot to make sale.

Visual impression is always effective.
 
About edited question. See the rule, nowhere is said its only for FS. Pic is required.

When you are putting up WTB thread, it becomes your responsibility to ask for pictures.

When you create FS thread, its right there on TE to be sold to a user. Pics must be there in first post.

Responsibility lies on the thread starter. Be it FS or WTB.

Its a simple rule and request.. Its not like we are asking you to build a mars lander.
 
About edited question. See the rule, nowhere is said its only for FS. Pic is required.
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To be fair, the edited question was edited about two hours before your reply to it, it's been edited even before WingZero posted.

Thanks for that clarification. My point is, that is exactly why the rule is arbitrary.

Responsibility lies on the thread starter. Be it FS or WTB.
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I see that point of view and I somewhat agree, but before the trade completes, it is up to the seller to satisfy himself with the offered product, whether through a photo, a conversation, or a look.

Written by hand part is there for a reason. think about it.
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Well, maybe I'm a little dense, but I haven't figured out why just yet. I wouldn't mind being taken through the logic of the decision, if it's not too much trouble.

I don't think I'm really talking the same language as everyone else on this thread, so I'll try and say it another way.

Let's say there's a trade running. Seller X puts up a pic, And buyer Y identifies the product and the transaction is completed.

When Y receives the product, he logs in a complaint that the product he received was defective/different/damaged.

X says he shipped the goods intact and as promised, and that Y has manipulated the received goods.

What good is the picture? This is the most extreme example, and is difficult to prove either way. The real disputes will be somewhere midway, and I'm not sure a picture will help at all in any case - though I'd be glad to be corrected, specially if past experience has shown that a picture posted along with the sale has protected a user.

A picture will help a sale - I am totally with you when you say this. Whether it helps prevent malpractice or not is a different issue altogether.

Which really is my point. I'm trying to weed out the difference between optional, which it was, and compulsory, which it is, specially in the light of the fact that a picture does not protect anybody.

What is the forum's interest in making pictures mandatory, how does it protect the interest of users (both buyers and sellers), and keep the forum owners/mods safe (which is also critical, to my mind)? That question is still unanswered.

I understand that not all the rules may be open to discussion, as you've mentioned earlier. But do we deserve a proper explanation?

Its a simple rule and request.. Its not like we are asking you to build a mars lander.
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Never said (or thought of) that. Consider...

A product may have aesthetic appeal which a basic camera ruins (and therefore degrades the chance of the sale).

A product may perform brilliantly, but look damaged, chipped, old and dusty, or otherwise blemished. A photograph would similarly damage chances of the sale.

A product may have to be disassembled (I hadn't thought of that earlier), before a reasonable photograph can be taken. This may require considerable effort.

A damaged product may be covered up and prettied up before the sale, improving its chances of sale to gullible buyers.

Unscrupulous sellers may photograph a new or unblemished product and ship a damaged one (not difficult if you have a shop full of product) to the buyer.

Seller may want to sell complete rig, or optionally, part it out. Photographs would be required for a) complete functioning rig b) individual parts c) both?

Has the rule and request considered all these possibilities and covered all these bases?

Understand I've already said in post #5 that I would try and abide (which means that unless I had the means to post a pic, I would not sell on TE), but I would really like to know why the rule was formulated.

To my mind, the only thing a photograph does is establish that the product is indeed with you and not somewhere else (as your own pictures, Funky, do indicate very well indeed, with a masthead for proof), and it is the same make and model as your post indicates. Beyond that, they're pretty much just a waste of bandwidth, time and carbon.

Unless, of course, there's a really good reason for this.

I'm all ears.
 
Dude, its simple.

Its not to ensure good working product. Thats expected from you, all products must be as per stated in the thread.

These rules are there to make life easier for buyers, sellers and for mods to make sure there are no fake / imaginary / proxy trades taking place here.

Read all the rules. Its not about single rule. All general rules + all TE market rules and guidelines apply.

And these are here to stay.
 
From my understanding this rule was implemented in order to minimize risk to members trading on TE Market. Yes, things can go wrong and in the end it still boils down to the intergrity of the traders but at least in this way we can be sure that the item in question does exist and no one is selling smoke.

Of course with any rule there are chances that there maybe obvious exploits or loopholes we may have overlooked and once pointed out we can try to amend them. Suggestions are welcome for the same.
 
Read all the rules. Its not about single rules. All general rules + all TE rules and guidelines apply.

And these are here to stay.
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I don't know what to make of that statement, really, and I'm not sure it was necessary, the first two sentences of your reply would have been enough for me.
 
sangram said:
I don't know what to make of that statement, really, and I'm not sure it was necessary, the first two sentences of your reply would have been enough for me.
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I dont know what would have been enough for you because its already in black and white. Thats why I stated, read all the rules.

All 11 marker rules combined and then the guidelines stated below them are to ensure safer, more reliable and transparent market @ TE and not some chaotic place.

And it was not an offensive statement.

Rule no 10 clearly states that in the end its not our responsibility or liability to ensure perfect trade. We are doing some basic things we can, and impose some basic rules and give some basic guidelines. Thats about it.

And this is the first basic step we have taken with introduction of this new rule.

These rules are still pretty relaxed. And ample time is given to all to modify their threads.

Have a look around the internet. Market , FS threads have pretty strict restrictions everywhere. And with growing popularity of TE market and TE itself these steps are needed.
 
Funky said:
Rule no 10 clearly states that in the end its not our responsibility or liability to ensure perfect trade. We are doing some basic things we can, and impose some basic rules and give some basic guidelines. Thats about it.
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Hw abt getting some free stuff like RAM sticks with the shipment?? :P

Jokes apart, I think its certainly a good move [But frankly, I feel very lazy to take my cam, click a pic, transfer it to my comp, resize it, host it in a server, post thumbnails here..... :P But then I cant market it if I dont post them; I've seen trades with well laid out pics getting dealt with faster; Personally, in my case, the motherboard; Took more than a month w/o pics.]

Off-lately newbies who're wanting to get stuff from the market don't even seem to trust us. :( [Even the itrader seems to be of no use]

A pic/snapshot/PrtScn capture of the product [whatever it maybe] should be a welcome move so that buyers can ensure they're getting a product in working condition.

2 cents here. :)
 
Point to be noted is these rules have come up after one guy tried to sell "8600GT smoke" to 5 or maybe more buyers over a period of one month or more. :P
 
OT: If you have a cell phone and want to take pics with readable text with it, make the text real thick and big will help.
 
The new Pic-is-must rule is enforced after a li'l deliberation to facilitate the sales. As such, the only logic is to show that the product really exists. Also, in some cases to avoid proxy sales.

As for the queries raised, the rule is not foolproof. As with all rules, there are loopholes. Anyone can circumvent these but the idea is to make trading a li'l more easy & comfortable for all members here, new and old alike.

We regret any inconvenience caused and hope all the members appreciate and abide by the new rules.
 
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