Queries on DTH & LCD TVs

[kidrow]

Hi, there is just so much jargon being thrown around & I really need some clarity. So here goes-

1. How is the cablewallah's dth [if I may use that term] different from that offered by Tata, Airtel etc.[in terms of quality, technology]? Will there be any difference if the tv set is a CRT vs an LCD?

2. How significant is MPEG4? What is Airtel's MPEG4 DVB2 [or something similar anyway]? & are Airtel & Big the only ones offering it currently? & what's this about compression I hear all the while?

3. What res are channels being beamed at currently? I've heard all are below SD currently. So does buying a 720p LCD make more sense than an 1080i [1080p is too expensive comparatively, right?]?

4. Can an STB of one company/service provider be used with another service provider's DTH? For eg, can an Airtel STB be used with Tata, currently or in the foreseeable future? [Just so one can switch if prices of the packages are hiked &/or the service is poor]. If the answer is no, then is it possible/viable to sell the STB, through TE market or the like?

5. All the LCD TVs are 16:9 currently. The content via DTH or cable is 4:3 mostly. How is this resolved, & what does one look for [any spec or technology in particular?] to ensure that the picture is not squished/stretched? Is this at the DTH end or the TV end? [I remember watching a football game on an LCD once & finding the ball to be oval rather than round!]

6. Does an IPS panel make a world of difference? How come only Panasonic seems to advertise this feature & none of the other cos. do?

7. When comparing LCD TVs, the Philips sets seem to me to be brighter & sharper than the rest, other things remaining the same. Is it just me? Cos Philips sets are seldom recommended on TE. So what gives?

8. What is the average life of an LCD TV [& I don't mean that figure in hours which is oft quoted]? I mean, the CRT TVs seldom have problems, in general, for quite a no. of years. So are the LCDs the same, i.e. relatively trouble free for a great no. of years? & what is the cost of repairs? It's obvious that the LCD panel itself would be very expensive, but suppose the speakers or some such component needs changing, then would it compare to a CRT? & will someone outside of a service centre be able to repair it? [Just don't want a white elephant on my hands].

9. Lastly, do you really think it's worthwhile trying to compare [& splitting hairs over] TVs in a multi-brand showroom? I mean, generally, you'll have a few at eye level while the rest are above or below. As a result the latter don't look too good because of the vertical viewing angles. That's just my take. So any suggestions to counter that [short of getting a ladder to stand on]? Secondly, once the TV is home, it's going to look great anyways, cos there's nothing to compare the set to. So what are your thoughts on this?

That's it [for now]. Thanks a lot guys.

 

[adder]

Hi, there is just so much jargon being thrown around & I really need some clarity. So here goes-

1. How is the cablewallah's dth [if I may use that term] different from that offered by Tata, Airtel etc.[in terms of quality, technology]? Will there be any difference if the tv set is a CRT vs an LCD?

well usualy ur cable wala ties up with bigger cable tv service providers like hathway,siti cable,in cable etc .now that all or some channels are available in digital,u will need a DVB-C STB to decrypt those pay channels that come from ur regular RF coaxial cable of ur cablewala .

DTH is direct to home where all channels are fed directly from sattelite to ur dish and then to ur DVB-S STB.so in DTH there is less chances of quality degrade,since once all the channels are obtained by ur DTH provider its uplinked to a sattelite which in turn transmits the channels to ur stb.
where as in hathway cable etc they too have all the channels but its distributed via a cable so it depends upon the cables used,the signal amplifiers located every few KMs some of which are of poor quality.

2. How significant is MPEG4? What is Airtel's MPEG4 DVB2 [or something similar anyway]? & are Airtel & Big the only ones offering it currently? & what's this about compression I hear all the while?

mpeg4 is a newer compression tech,it is more efficient,so with the same amount of bandwith mgeg4 transmission can show more channels then mpeg2.
airtel meets newer specs of DVB-S called DVB-S2 ,its has some improvements in bandwith efficiency or some thing,their stb and their transmission are DVB-S2,in the SUN tv HD only the STB is DVB-S2 mpeg4 and newer tata sky new black STB* is DVB-S2 but transmission is MPEG2 DVB-S.

3. What res are channels being beamed at currently? I've heard all are below SD currently. So does buying a 720p LCD make more sense than an 1080i [1080p is too expensive comparatively, right?]?

well most of the channels are SD,only few HD channels are available in india they are discovery HD,NGC HD,soon History ch HD,ESPN HD and much more,currently some of the above HD ch are available in SUN DTH HD

4. Can an STB of one company/service provider be used with another service provider's DTH? For eg, can an Airtel STB be used with Tata, currently or in the foreseeable future? [Just so one can switch if prices of the packages are hiked &/or the service is poor]. If the answer is no, then is it possible/viable to sell the STB, through TE market or the like?

well the proposed laws or yet to be approved laws states that all STBs should be compatible with each others,but its still in the courts,since TS,DISH tv didn't comply,since their STB are only mpeg2 compatible,where as Airtel,SUN,BIG tv etc are both mpeg4 and mpeg2 compatible.
well the STBs,smart card and the dish are the sole properties of the DTH,so u have to return it back,legaly no question of selling it.

5. All the LCD TVs are 16:9 currently. The content via DTH or cable is 4:3 mostly. How is this resolved, & what does one look for [any spec or technology in particular?] to ensure that the picture is not squished/stretched? Is this at the DTH end or the TV end? [I remember watching a football game on an LCD once & finding the ball to be oval rather than round!

well currently none of the DTH providers except SUN HD , provide in 16:9.so u will have to make do with the black bars or a streched image.but some channels like UTV world movies,WB movies even though the DTH companies shrink it to 4:3,if u strech them back to 16:9 in ur tv,their is no difference in the aspect ratio compared to the same 16:9 movie played from a DVD player.i myself have comfirmed this.

6. Does an IPS panel make a world of difference? How come only Panasonic seems to advertise this feature & none of the other cos. do?

well IPS panel has good viewing angle ,low input lag and natively have a good response time.well LG also advertizes but with bull crap info.

7. When comparing LCD TVs, the Philips sets seem to me to be brighter & sharper than the rest, other things remaining the same. Is it just me? Cos Philips sets are seldom recommended on TE. So what gives?

well philips lcd are rare these days.they stopped advertizing,remember those amblight lcd ads.as far as brighter and sharper it has to plainly do with the settings.

8. What is the average life of an LCD TV [& I don't mean that figure in hours which is oft quoted]? I mean, the CRT TVs seldom have problems, in general, for quite a no. of years. So are the LCDs the same, i.e. relatively trouble free for a great no. of years? & what is the cost of repairs? It's obvious that the LCD panel itself would be very expensive, but suppose the speakers or some such component needs changing, then would it compare to a CRT? & will someone outside of a service centre be able to repair it? [Just don't want a white elephant on my hands

well has it with any electronics ur tvs should last no longer then 10years,some exceptional cases where people even watch tvs that are 20years old.lcd tv repairs are exceptional high,same goes to plasma,since unlike the crt days where a individual component could be changed,in flat panels the entire PCB is changed or a entire SMPS etc.most local repair persons refuse to repair lcds,they may try.

9. Lastly, do you really think it's worthwhile trying to compare [& splitting hairs over] TVs in a multi-brand showroom? I mean, generally, you'll have a few at eye level while the rest are above or below. As a result the latter don't look too good because of the vertical viewing angles. That's just my take. So any suggestions to counter that [short of getting a ladder to stand on]? Secondly, once the TV is home, it's going to look great anyways, cos there's nothing to compare the set to. So what are your thoughts on this?

That's it [for now]. Thanks a lot guys.

well why not its fun comparing those shinny new tvs sets atleast for me and many other i know,yes it is hard,only a handfull of people actualy compare them so extensively,most go by the ads or the sales person crap.
u can also read reviews they are plenty,some are biased some are non biased.but it should help.

 

[kidrow]

Thanks for all your replies adder. You've helped a ton.
But I'm not done yet, so hope you can help me out further. Thanks.

mpeg4 is a newer compression tech,it is more efficient,so with the same amount of bandwith mgeg4 transmission can show more channels then mpeg2.
airtel meets newer specs of DVB-S called DVB-S2 ,its has some improvements in bandwith efficiency or some thing,their stb and their transmission are DVB-S2,in the SUN tv HD only the STB is DVB-S2 mpeg4 and newer tata sky new black STB* is DVB-S2 but transmission is MPEG2 DVB-S.

So MPEG4 has nothing to do with the quality of reception? It's just means greater no. of channels?

well most of the channels are SD,only few HD channels are available in india they are discovery HD,NGC HD,soon History ch HD,ESPN HD and much more,currently some of the above HD ch are available in SUN DTH HD

So if I've an SD TV, then will the HD transmission look better or most of the picture will be cut away? What would be the scenario if the TV is 720p & the transmission is 1080p?

well the proposed laws or yet to be approved laws states that all STBs should be compatible with each others,but its still in the courts,since TS,DISH tv didn't comply,since their STB are only mpeg2 compatible,where as Airtel,SUN,BIG tv etc are both mpeg4 and mpeg2 compatible.
well the STBs,smart card and the dish are the sole properties of the DTH,so u have to return it back,legaly no question of selling it.

So an MPEG4 STB will be compatible with other providers' services, if the laws turn out to favour the consumer later, or it won't matter cos of the way it's set up currently, i.e. it's 'locked' with one particular dth provider?

& what are we paying for, if the STB isn't our property?

well currently none of the DTH providers except SUN HD , provide in 16:9.so u will have to make do with the black bars or a streched image.but some channels like UTV world movies,WB movies even though the DTH companies shrink it to 4:3,if u strech them back to 16:9 in ur tv,their is no difference in the aspect ratio compared to the same 16:9 movie played from a DVD player.i myself have comfirmed this.

I'm still a bit confused here. Do I look for any particular spec/feature in the TV or the DTH provider, to prevent squished images? I don't mind the black bars on the top & bottom, but hate the ones on the left & right hand sides. Or is there nothing that can be done about this as it's the individual channels' transmission/spec which controls this aspect.

To put it clearly here's what I've in my head. Suppose I have a 16:9 TV & I receive a 4:3 image, it would have to be viewed with black bars on the left & right hand sides, if the aspect ratio & resolution is to be kept the same. Suppose it's the image of a ball, if I choose full screen, the ball would appear like a rugby ball. If the aspect ratio is to be maintained, the image would have to be zoomed into at full screen, in which case the resolution/sharpness would suffer. Allowing for bars at the top & bottom would stiil not resolve the issue.

So is my supposition above accurate & if yes, what is the one aspect to look for to resolve this?

well IPS panel has good viewing angle ,low input lag and natively have a good response time.well LG also advertizes but with bull crap info.

Well even Panasonic doesn't say much expect that the panel is IPS - no specs or anything. But does the fact that the other Cos. don't say so mean that their panels are non-IPS?

well philips lcd are rare these days.they stopped advertizing,remember those amblight lcd ads.as far as brighter and sharper it has to plainly do with the settings.

So Philips TVs are kept @ higher brightness levels than the rest? But even if that's the case they are good enough, right? Cos like I've said, they look much better to me & I don't really care if I have to turn all setting all the way up if it's going to look good in the end.

well has it with any electronics ur tvs should last no longer then 10years,some exceptional cases where people even watch tvs that are 20years old.lcd tv repairs are exceptional high,same goes to plasma,since unlike the crt days where a individual component could be changed,in flat panels the entire PCB is changed or a entire SMPS etc.most local repair persons refuse to repair lcds,they may try.

In other words, best to buy one when you can afford two.

well why not its fun comparing those shinny new tvs sets atleast for me and many other i know,yes it is hard,only a handfull of people actualy compare them so extensively,most go by the ads or the sales person crap.
u can also read reviews they are plenty,some are biased some are non biased.but it should help.

Any pointers on how one can go about it? For instance, I'd once noticed there was a difference in how sharp/smooth/pixellated smoke [on stage] appeared in a concert video being played across different sets. Before the smoke appeared, they all looked equally good. Now I know what sort of scene to play to make out the differences. So maybe you've some similar tips?

Another thing I'm confused about is whether SD content would seem better on 720p as compared to 1080p. Or there wouldn't be any difference? Also would 1080p content look any better on 720p TVs than 720p content.

Thanks for your time guys, & special thanks once again to adder for the detailed replies.

 

[adder]

Thanks for all your replies adder. You've helped a ton.
But I'm not done yet, so hope you can help me out further. Thanks.

So MPEG4 has nothing to do with the quality of reception? It's just means greater no. of channels?

well there some difference in quality,read the wiki article on MPEG4,but its main advantage is the better compression efficiency.

So if I've an SD TV, then will the HD transmission look better or most of the picture will be cut away? What would be the scenario if the TV is 720p & the transmission is 1080p?

well if u have a SD crt,it will be downscaled,so u will get black bars on top and bottom.same goes 1080p content in a 720p screen,but u may or may not get black bar,depending on the aspect ration such as 2.33:1 etc.

So an MPEG4 STB will be compatible with other providers' services, if the laws turn out to favour the consumer later, or it won't matter cos of the way it's set up currently, i.e. it's 'locked' with one particular dth provider
& what are we paying for, if the STB isn't our property?

yep thats correct about the stb property,eventually the law will come into effect,can't say when.

I'm still a bit confused here. Do I look for any particular spec/feature in the TV or the DTH provider, to prevent squished images? I don't mind the black bars on the top & bottom, but hate the ones on the left & right hand sides. Or is there nothing that can be done about this as it's the individual channels' transmission/spec which controls this aspect
To put it clearly here's what I've in my head. Suppose I have a 16:9 TV & I receive a 4:3 image, it would have to be viewed with black bars on the left & right hand sides, if the aspect ratio & resolution is to be kept the same. Suppose it's the image of a ball, if I choose full screen, the ball would appear like a rugby ball. If the aspect ratio is to be maintained, the image would have to be zoomed into at full screen, in which case the resolution/sharpness would suffer. Allowing for bars at the top & bottom would stiil not resolve the issue.
So is my supposition above accurate & if yes, what is the one aspect to look for to resolve this?

thats correct.only way is if they start transmitting in 16:9 ratio.

Well even Panasonic doesn't say much expect that the panel is IPS - no specs or anything. But does the fact that the other Cos. don't say so mean that their panels are non-IPS?

well panasonic use IPS panels (from thier IPS alpha factory) in their 32inch,some models like LE8 and 26inch lcds may use a cmo panel based on SMVA.thier 42inch lcd has a lg panel,but from next year the alpha ips factory will start producing 42" panels.

So Philips TVs are kept @ higher brightness levels than the rest? But even if that's the case they are good enough, right? Cos like I've said, they look much better to me & I don't really care if I have to turn all setting all the way up if it's going to look good in the end.

well my guess is u like the sharp over processed image of philips tv,some like it other don't,its subjective

Any pointers on how one can go about it? For instance, I'd once noticed there was a difference in how sharp/smooth/pixellated smoke [on stage] appeared in a concert video being played across different sets. Before the smoke appeared, they all looked equally good. Now I know what sort of scene to play to make out the differences. So maybe you've some similar tips?

in HD pretty much every tv looks good,but only when playing SD will brands such as sony,samsung have the edge,both have good sd performance,with sony being the best.
also when they play demo video,some brands choose a demo such that it doesn't show the drawbacks particularly in contrast,shadow details.
batman dark knight ,i am legend have good shadow scenes.

Another thing I'm confused about is whether SD content would seem better on 720p as compared to 1080p. Or there wouldn't be any difference? Also would 1080p content look any better on 720p TVs than 720p content.

Thanks for your time guys, & special thanks once again to adder for the detailed replies.

well SD content will look good in HD ready at closer distance,it also depends upon on the upscaler of the tv,so if u compare a last year HD ready sony model to this year sony FHD model,u may find the FHD better or some what the same SD performance,due to the improvements in upscaling capability.
1080p does look a bit better in a 720p tv,especially tvs that have a resolution of 1366x768.

 

[sureshmilton]

@adder

That was one of the most interesting reads in a long time. Thank you for your time and patience. I don't see see this kind of helping attitude in quite a long time. Thank you for the information.

 

[Arnab Boss]

Well its a good thread for learning abt...'

@ adder

I have purchased a samsung 5 series 32inch lcd tv...' my current cable connection sucks.., so I hav decided to purchase a dth..'

my local showroom is insisting to buy dish tv as he is a dealer of it and its rental is also less than others....'
But after reading ur posts I am confused abt it as it is not mpeg4... So in future I hav to upgrade again...?

Help me guys as I will get it tomorow...?

 

[aayushjoshi]

let me add on to the cable experience here.

i too have cable connected with my 42inch lg lcd which i bought recently. the first time we connected to our cable i was disappointed with the PQ. the wire was a little short for connecting so i called up my cable guy to gimme a new bigger wire. he replace the whole wire with a new one and now the PQ is totally satisfying. it is better than what the showroom guys were showing. so as of now i am satisfied with the cable i have. am planning to get the hathway box on top of it to improve it further.

 

[LaLaCity]

Well its a good thread for learning abt...'

@ adder

I have purchased a samsung 5 series 32inch lcd tv...' my current cable connection sucks.., so I hav decided to purchase a dth..'

my local showroom is insisting to buy dish tv as he is a dealer of it and its rental is also less than others....'
But after reading ur posts I am confused abt it as it is not mpeg4... So in future I hav to upgrade again...?

Help me guys as I will get it tomorow...?

Read in some forums that the new Tata Sky STBs that are being provided are MPEG4 'ready'. But you can confirm by calling Tata Sky CS. The Tata Sky+ is also a good deal currently, as the the STB has a component out which many claim gives slightly better PQ as compared to the regular Composite outputs.

Please note Tata Sky does not currently broadcast MPEG4 signals, is my understanding. However, the STBs they are providing currently are being made 'future-proof' by having in-built capability to process MPEG4 signals. However, this is just something I read in forums and cannot confirm. Do your own research / call Tata Sky CS and confirm. Do let us know what you find out.

I have Tata Sky and very satisfied so far. I too recently purcahsed a Samsung Series 5 LCD. Plan to go with a Tata Sky+ connection for the new LCD. My earlier CRT with its regular Tata Sky connection will be moved to the bedroom.

No idea or experience with Dish TV, hence no comments. Hope this helps.

 

[adder]

Well its a good thread for learning abt...'

@ adder

I have purchased a samsung 5 series 32inch lcd tv...' my current cable connection sucks.., so I hav decided to purchase a dth..'

my local showroom is insisting to buy dish tv as he is a dealer of it and its rental is also less than others....'
But after reading ur posts I am confused abt it as it is not mpeg4... So in future I hav to upgrade again...?

Help me guys as I will get it tomorow...?

well dish tv as by far the worst PQ,if u want good after sales and support u can go for TS,if u want the best PQ u can go for Big tv.
TS although they have the new black stb with component out and MPEG4 ready,they still transmitt in MPEG2,so once if they switch to mpeg4 transmission they might increase the number of channels, they may also give currnet channels with better PQ ,since they have around 40 to 50% more transponders then any other DTH provider.

 

[Vij]

To put it clearly here's what I've in my head. Suppose I have a 16:9 TV & I receive a 4:3 image, it would have to be viewed with black bars on the left & right hand sides, if the aspect ratio & resolution is to be kept the same. Suppose it's the image of a ball, if I choose full screen, the ball would appear like a rugby ball. If the aspect ratio is to be maintained, the image would have to be zoomed into at full screen, in which case the resolution/sharpness would suffer. Allowing for bars at the top & bottom would stiil not resolve the issue.

So is my supposition above accurate & if yes, what is the one aspect to look for to resolve this?

Yes, the picture will look stretched. I choose the "just mode" on my panasonic viera to reduce the impact of stretching. It basically reduces the stretching at the center and stretches it at the sides. Works better than 16:9 mode for me. Some LCDs have this kind of setting.

 

[Arnab Boss]

@ adder...'

Thanks dude 4r the suggestions...'

So what r u suggesting tata sky or reliance big tv...'

As dish tv is offering 188 channels @ 125 bucks and 3 months free...'

So which one will b best and future proof and economic...'

 

[adder]

@ adder...'

Thanks dude 4r the suggestions...'

So what r u suggesting tata sky or reliance big tv...'

As dish tv is offering 188 channels @ 125 bucks and 3 months free...'

So which one will b best and future proof and economic...'

well for future proof based on the current amount of transpondersi.e 12 i would say TS,provided u go in for the newer black stb.
but in the present big tv still has the edge in PQ,but they only have 8 transponders.so they may loose their edge in the future.also BIG tv logo is a distraction,very annoying.

 

[kidrow]

Thanks for all your replies, guys. A few more queries -

1. So at the end of the day, the quality of the SD content when viewed on the 16:9 TV, will depend on the upscaler. So which brand has the best upscaling technology [if there's such a thing]?

2. While viewing DVDs, which is more important when it comes to upscaling - The TV upscaler or the DVD upscaler?

3. Is the Panasonic 'just mode' feature mentioned by vij above, a common feature found across all brands?

4. Big TV is considered to have the best PQ. To what would you attribute this to [transponders/compression]? Will the others catch up? How?

 

[adder]

Thanks for all your replies, guys. A few more queries -

1. So at the end of the day, the quality of the SD content when viewed on the 16:9 TV, will depend on the upscaler. So which brand has the best upscaling technology [if there's such a thing]?

2. While viewing DVDs, which is more important when it comes to upscaling - The TV upscaler or the DVD upscaler?

3. Is the Panasonic 'just mode' feature mentioned by vij above, a common feature found across all brands?

4. Big TV is considered to have the best PQ. To what would you attribute this to [transponders/compression]? Will the others catch up? How?

1 yes it depends on the upscaler and more improtantly the source.currently the sony BE3 based lcds have the best upscalers.

2well it depends in some cases the dvd players upscaling is better.

3well the just mode feature is nowdays available in most brands,but u do loose some picture at the sides.

4well to lesser compression,using the more efficient MPEG4,it also has decent amount of transponders 8,not as much as TS which has 12,but TS uses older MPEG2.big tv also has a component out.so all this factors contribute to PQ.
TS will soon catch up so will others.but can't say when.