Suggest a Microscope EDIT: Bought Radical RXL-4B

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A couple of clarifications/opinions:
Not really. I have seen high eyepoint eyepieces in microscopes from Carl Zeiss and Leica as well.
But Leica/Zeiss aren't technically Indian. By Indian, I meant scopes made in India. :-)

Btw from what I hear, Zeiss isn't interested in selling microscopes less than Rs 1.5-2 lac. They concentrate on high end ones, ones with fluorescence, phase contrast etc built in.
 
(On a sidenote)
Lol... I ain't a biology fan. Just curious about everything in life - starting from the "brain" [neurology]; to earth sciences; to philosophy; to cooking & creating my own dishes each time :rolleyes: ; to the realms of the cosmos.

We hardly ever bat an eyelid today when we spend (30-40k on a cellphone or tablet - thanks to all those blasted EMI schemes that is making fools out of us & these devices have hardly any shelf-life). I for one will now never spend more than 6-10k on a cellphone & use it till that damm thing lasts (which is hardly 3-4 years). So when it comes to spending on certain other things (especially for our children) like - microscopes; telescopes; musical instruments; Books .... I would like to do the best I can to encourage them to learn & discover more of the real world around us. In the process - I keep alive my own interests in forever wanting to learn & study & hopefully our children will pass on this "curiosity & quest" to their next gen.


My brain is also wired in a starkly & strikingly similar fashion! :)
among many other interests, i have also always had a fancy for 'things' that could help us see into the micro-world (in this case, microscopes), as well as an affinity for microcosm (both metaphorically, and literally/physically).
but, never thought of even thinking deeply to either delve in this subject and involve myself more, learn more, or, to invest in a venture like this.

Thanks a lot Terence for this treasure of a thread, with so much valuable info in it! without a doubt, this page is going to be saved in my 'database of webpages'. subscribing to it as well! :)
 
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Umm, unfortunately we cannot help you with the BX series. They use a different set of lenses that we do not have access to, so we cannot design the adapter.

We usually have adapters for the MLX series, CH20 series and CX21 in Olympus. Basically, almost all microscopes which have a 25mm phototube.

So sorry again.

Regards,
Mohit.
www.BioZen.co.in
 
Umm, unfortunately we cannot help you with the BX series. They use a different set of lenses that we do not have access to, so we cannot design the adapter.

We usually have adapters for the MLX series, CH20 series and CX21 in Olympus. Basically, almost all microscopes which have a 25mm phototube.

So sorry again.

Regards,
Mohit.
www.BioZen.co.in


No problems. But we do have CH20i in our department for PG use. How much does it cost to make an adapter for these, and what does it involve?
 
If its a trinoc, then we can get an adapter ready in about 10-15 days. Depending on the SLR, the price varies, but not by much. A Canon adapter is about Rs. 7K. For a Nikon, its about Rs. 7.5K.

If its okay to ask you, which medical college are you in?
 
Thanks @biozen (Mohit) & @logistopath - I am carefully pouring through everything that you have shared thus far [including the Labomed & Olympus scopes]. I am really captivated by the Magnus Theia-i scope (she is a rare beauty). But the price really frightens me. So maybe a few years 3-5 years down the line if my daughter "really" needs something like that, then I would go ahead and buy a 50k scope. I will most likely take a final call by next week.

A querry - There are some scopes which come with a "Darkfield Filter/dark field stop & Abbe Brightfield condenser" BUT NO Iris Diaphragm - and the foll as optional accessories - Darkfield Condenser and phase 10x; 40x; 100x

Now I really am not sure whether these things (darkfield) are needed for us at this preliminary stage..... [certainly NO]. I think I have understood the functioning of this - as it helps view unstained slides & in low magnification - http://www.microscopemaster.com/dark-field-microscope.html -
Therefore - 1] Can I still view slides/specimens as if an "iris diaphragm" were there (i.e control the amount of light) or
2] Request the assembler to remove the "darkfield filter/stop & abbe brightfield condenser" and just include - the Iris diaphragm & the normal abbe condenser.

Dunno if I have muddled up things :nailbiting:
Terry
 
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@terence_fdes The Abbe brightfield condenser, if I'm not wrong, is the condenser routinely seen in all normal microscopes. You certainly don't need a darkfield or phase contrast attachments right now. There is a simple workaround to achieve dark fields in normal microscopes. Just place a small coin on the condenser in such a way that there is just a narrow rim of light coming out from the periphery of the condenser. That should produce sufficient dark field. :)
 
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@terence_fdesJust place a small coin on the condenser in such a way that there is just a narrow rim of light coming out from the periphery of the condenser. That should produce sufficient dark field. :)
This is exactly what the dark field stop is. Darkfield technique is used for studying quality of diamonds and gemstones amongst other applications.

Phase contrast is a specialised technique for unstained and live specimens. One chief use is in infertility clinics where they impregnate egg with a sperm in a petri dish under a phase contrast microscope and with micro manipulators. Seriously cool stuff, if you ask me.

Abbe condenser and iris diaphragm are standard in almost all microscopes in the market today. So don't fret over it too much.

Edit:
You have to be here if microscopy interests you...
http://microscopyu.com
http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk

HTH,
Mohit.
www.BioZen.co.in
 
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This is exactly what the dark field stop is. Darkfield technique is used for studying quality of diamonds and gemstones amongst other applications.

Abbe condenser and iris diaphragm are standard in almost all microscopes in the market today. So don't fret over it too much.

Which translates - that even if I have the "darkfield filter/stop" - I can STILL USE the scope in a normal way. Right ?

Now I wish to go back to some of the most fundamental issues that you & @logistopath have re-iterated many times - namely "quality optics & mechanical build too"

Quote @biozen
The low cost binoculars aren't very well made. Both eyepieces may not be centered properly, so each eye sees a slightly different field and that may cause a eyestrain.

There's really no such things as "semi-plan" optics. They are plan or they are not. Plan means that all of the field that you see is completely focused from center to periphery. In non-plan lenses, if the periphery is in focus, the center is out and vice versa. Even in non-plan lenses, the goods ones have a fair bit of field focused at the same time compared to lower quality ones - probably, what marketing guys say "semi-plan".

In better scopes, the stage knobs are coaxial and are pointing downwards just a little away from the coaxial focus knobs. These are pretty low down on the microscope body. So your hand/wrist rests on the table top, finger and thumb pointing upwards, and since all the 4 knobs (2 focus + 2 stage) are close to each other, with little flicks of your finger and thumb, you can focus and you can move the slide.
What I meant yesterday about low-cost bino scopes not being centered is that you see two slightly different fields in the left-right eyepieces....... Now supposing the prism arrangement isn't perfect - ALIGNMENT - which worsens this error, each of your eye ends up seeing two slightly shifted fields. So if the nucleus of a cell is right at the centre of the left eye, it may be shifted a bit in the right eye. So, its off-centered. Your brains sees two different views from each eye, and so eyestrain. :eek:

Quote @logistopath
........ The biggest problem with the cheaper devices is that the field of vision is very small compared to the better models. Also, planovision is lacking. The edges of the field tend to be out of focus most often....

QUERRIES:
Professional vs Enthusiast - Choosing a Microscope

1] So is it a given that it's really hard if not impossible to find/expect - "decent quality" say 99.97% or 99.98% in other lesser known builds/brands [apart from the biggies - Olympus; Nikon; Labomed etc]. I understand for a researcher/professional that in the "microscopic world an error margin of 0.005% or lesser [for sharpness/clarity/resolution/field of vision] is absolutely unacceptable.
I cannot find any scopes from the branded guru's which is below 20k :( and I concede - unlike making so many difficult choices in life [like chosing an i7-3920XM vs 3770K vs 3570 or GPU's where the performance is acceptable based on your needs] - chosing a microscope (& telescope) is the hardest.

2] For an "Enthusiast" (such as myself) - would this mean a major compromise which I can live by ? I also plan to spend at least another 5k in getting some quality permanent slides.

3] What is the understanding when an XYZ brand claims that their 'scopes' meet CL, UL & ISO certifications/confirmations ? Is it just that some of their models meet these stringent standards & the rest can be disputed ?
Cases in question
Radical Instruments rate contract and their "impressive list of customers"
Cosmo Laboratory Equipment - seem ok - but most prices may be upwards of 20k
plus scores of other sites [how I wish each one also provided their price list] - http://www.quasmoindianmicroscope.c...cular-Pathological-Research-Microscopes.phtml
http://www.coslabindia.com/microscope-exporters.php
http://www.aimscientific.com/microscope/research.htm
http://www.uniconinstruments.com/micro_new_3.htm
http://www.almicroinstruments.com/biological-microscopes-9.html

It gets really tough to wade through all of this :banghead:

Terry

Of course, I will make a trip to princess street, mumbai and check out things before taking a final call.
 
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Almost all microscopes that you get in the Rs. 10K-50K are brightfield microscopes. The background (=field) is white (=bright). The object that you see (f.e. a cell) is stained so that it stands out clearly against this bright background. Stains are basically special chemicals that attach to specific things in the object and impart colour to it. F.e. in a plant cell Safranin O (a stain) gives red colour to nuclei, Fast Green gives green colour to cell wall. This way the structure of a cell is distinctive to see under a microscope. If not stained, the cells look kind of greyish and artefacts are fuzzy and blend into the background.

Attach a dark field stop to the condenser of a brightfield microscope, you get a darkfield microscope. Well, sort of. Actual darkfields are little more than this.

Remove the brightfield condenser and standard objectives, and attach a phase contrast condenser and phase objectives, you get a phase contrast microscope.

So to sum up, all microscopes, unless specified otherwise, are brightfield by default.

Now about the quality standards...

UL is a quality certification of the electronics/electrical part of the microscope (or any other item, for that matter). Very broadly speaking, it kinda assures you that the product is electrically safe

ISO is a quality management system. It helps you manage/attain some quality. What that quality is, is up to you. For example, a company fabricates certain lengths of iron rods from longer rods. It has automated cutting machines that can cut accurately with a tolerance of +/- 0.1mm length. But the boss decides to cut lengths with accuracy of 1mm, and also claims +/- 1mm error to his customers. So a 100mm rod from this company could be anywhere between 99-101mm. Another company with same machines, says its rods have an error of +/-0.1mm but actually produces rods that have an error of +/- 0.5mm. So this company claims to sells 100mm rods that are supposed to be 99.9-100.1mm long, but actually could be between 99.5-100.5mm. Which company do you think has better quality?.. The first company, coz it gives what it says. But I digress... Very broadly speaking, ISO (ISO 9001 relevant for manufacturing/selling) will document what you do and how you do it; basically your functions, processes, products, systems, designs etc. Its not a validation of the end product, just the processes that go into producing the end-product. Intrinsic in this is if the processes etc. are quality controlled, the product will be too... Once again, ISO is NOT an end-product quality certificate.

For product quality, you should be looking at the ISI mark. But you know how things are in India. A few years back, I was told that the going rate for Ambala microscopes to be ISI certified is Rs. 50. Even a shitty microscope + Rs. 50, and you can have it ISI marked. So basically quality certificates and assurances are not worth the paper they are printed on.

There's a reason optical things are so expensive. Be it camera lenses, telescopes, microscopes. Good ones are really difficult to produce and demand a certain setup of infrastructure, technology, knowledge and personnel that are seriously costly.

If you are going for a low cost microscope, a binocular for Rs. 12K won't be much better than one that is Rs. 8K. You'll find a lot of these in Princess Street.

If you do decide to increase your budget my suggestions once again are: Labomed CxL (~Rs. 28K) -> Olympus CH20i (Rs 39K) -> Olympus CX21i (Rs. 50K).

Regards,
Mohit.
www.BioZen.co.in
 
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Thanks a tonne Mohit @biozen ... your insights and contributions to this thread have been "priceless & invalueable".

You also have a rare art of simplifying "many, many vague and complex things" in the most passionate and down-to-earth way without any biases or personal prejudices.

I yet do not know What, How and Which microscope will be my final decision! (I have many personal financial equations to be sorted out before I plunge into this adventure with my daughter). I hope to conclude things by next weekend (if all goes well).

In this search & process, I have gained a lot of knowledge and all due to your sharing..... [Wud love to meet you some day over a cuppa chai & vada-pav/bhel-puri or always welcome at my place in Mumbai].:happy:

And of course @logistopath ... you have been a catalyst of sorts on this thread. I hope both you guys (and the unknown folks yet on TE) will keep contributing to this thread - for whosoever wants to venture into the world of the "unseen=microscopic" wonders of life.

I have a few more tinny querries which I will post tomorrow.

Ciao for today
Terry
 
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@biozen

Mohit
How is the Labomed Vision 2000 scope [I think it's available for ~ 19.5k] - How much does this differ from the CxL model (~28k)

Querries
1] Eyepeice - Is the 10x (ocular power) sufficient for all purposes [or should I also go for an additional 15x or 20x/25x paired] ?
- Are there situations where a higher magnification eyepiece is necessary ?
- EDIT - [Answers found - see below]
2] Objectives - 100x
- Does the above always have to be used with "immersion-oil" ?
- Can it also be used "dry" ?

Thanks
Terry

EDIT:
I am unable to do a side-by-side comparision between the labomed vision 2ooo & CxL scopes. From their brochures the ONLY difference I see is in their "dimensions" :( Why then a price difference of almost 8k ?
@logistopath
 
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I have found some answers to the above querry regarding Eyepeice - http://www.olympusmicro.com/primer/anatomy/oculars.html
Quote
Care should be taken in choosing eyepiece/objective combinations to ensure the optimal magnification of specimen detail without adding unnecessary artifacts.
For instance, to achieve a magnification of 250x, the microscopist could choose a 25x eyepiece coupled to a 10x objective. An alternative choice for the same magnification would be a 10x eyepiece with a 25x objective. Because the 25x objective has a higher numerical aperture (approximately 0.65) than does the 10x objective (approximately 0.25), and considering that numerical aperture values define an objective's resolution, it is clear that the latter choice would be the best. If photomicrographs of the same viewfield were made with each objective/eyepiece combination described above, it would be obvious that the 10x eyepiece/25x objective duo would produce photomicrographs that excelled in specimen detail and clarity when compared to the alternative combination.

The "range of useful magnification" for an objective/eyepiece combination is defined by the numerical aperture of the system. There is a minimum magnification necessary for the detail present in an image to be resolved, and this value is usually rather arbitrarily set as 500 times the numerical aperture (500 × NA). At the other end of the spectrum, the maximum useful magnification of an image is usually set at 1000 times the numerical aperture (1000 × NA). Magnifications higher than this value will yield no further useful information or finer resolution of image detail, and will usually lead to image degradation. Exceeding the limit of useful magnification causes the image to suffer from the phenomenon of "empty magnification", where increasing magnification through the eyepiece or intermediate tube lens only causes the image to become more magnified with no corresponding increase in detail resolution.

Table 3 lists the common objective/eyepiece combinations that lie in the range of useful magnification.

From the above it appears that above 15x - eyepieces do not serve any great purpose.​
 
Further reading through confirms a misleading fact - BEWARE OF SITES THAT SELL 2000X MAGNIFICATION
We have all visited microscopy websites that advertise "1,600x" or '2,000x" compound microscopes and "90x" stereo microscopes, but what they are really advertising is Empty or False magnification that is mostly useless.

To quote Nikon, "In fact, excessive magnification introduces artifacts, diffraction boundaries, and halos into the image that obscure specimen features and complicate the interpretation of visual observations.

........ it should come as no surprise to know that every compound microscope is designed and sold with 10x eyepieces as the standard benchmark. There is minimal benefit in using higher power eyepieces and considerable disadvantages. As if this were not enough, there are very few and rarefied applications in light microscopy that actually warrant higher magnification than 1,000x.

The important thing to note about Table 1 is that the higher power eyepieces (15x, 20x and 25x) do not operate effectively in combination with the higher power objective lenses. In other words, it is meaningless to advertise a high power, compound microscope as "2,000x Magnification" since it does not work. In reality, standard, light microscopes are designed for a maximum of 1,000x magnification....so, please - don't waste your money on claims of higher magnification via higher power eyepieces.
 
True. In fact, the big four of microscopes Olympus/Nikon/Zeiss/Leica do not give 15x eyepieces with their microscopes. You have to buy them separately, and even then not recommended with higher power objectives.

What people assume is that microscopes are magnifying instruments. Which is not entirely correct. Microscopes are 'resolving' instruments, i.e. they improve optical resolution. To explain this better, assume you are floating about 100 metres above dense orchard of mango trees. Looking down you can only see a mass of something green. Now, go down to about 50 metres. You should be able to see individual trees. At 5 metres, you can distinguish individual leaves. From 1/2 a metre away, you should be able to make out the veins of the leaves... So as you come closer to the object, you are able to resolve the details more. This is how a microscope works. If you remember a bit of physics from high-school, the ray diagrams in the lesson on 'Light' showed you a boy standing next to a lens where two rays of light converge while the object is on the other side of that lens. Imagine yourself as that boy. Each higher power objective, brings you closer to the object (virtually), and you are able to resolve the details of the cell better. Contrast this with a simple magnifier (like the one Sherlock Holmes has). It simply enlarges the image, i.e. empty magnification. Another analogy, clicking with a camera with higher megapixels, versus simply increasing the image resolution of a low-res image in a photo-editor software.

In 100x oil immersion objectives, the layer of oil between the objective and the slide actually works as a lens. Its a special oil with a particular RI (refractive index). In fact, 100x oil immersion objectives are so designed that the cover slip (the thin pieces of glass over the specimen on the slide), the thin layer of oil, and the 100x objective; all three form a lens system. Without the oil, the image is blurred and just about useless. So the oil is necessary and comes with the microscope.


Regarding your query about Vision 2000, its a decent microscope. But has certain issues with the light source electronics. Tends to blow a lot. Repairs are usually: (1) replacement of the bulb (Rs. 150-200) frequently or (2) replacement of light source PCB (~Rs. 3K) in a year or so. If you are looking in that category, Olympus has a better microscope in Magnus-MLX-B. That's about Rs. 23.5K.

Regards,
Mohit.
www.BioZen.co.in
 
True. In fact, the big four of microscopes Olympus/Nikon/Zeiss/Leica do not give 15x eyepieces with their microscopes. You have to buy them separately, and even then not recommended with higher power objectives.

Thanks. Got this part drilled firmly in my brain now.

In 100x oil immersion objectives, the layer of oil between the objective and the slide actually works as a lens. Its a special oil with a particular RI (refractive index). In fact, 100x oil immersion objectives are so designed that the cover slip (the thin pieces of glass over the specimen on the slide), the thin layer of oil, and the 100x objective; all three form a lens system. Without the oil, the image is blurred and just about useless. So the oil is necessary and comes with the microscope.

So is there no situation at all - wherein the 100x objective could/should be used 'dry' ?

.... Regarding your query about Vision 2000, its a decent microscope. But has certain issues with the light source electronics. Tends to blow a lot. Repairs are usually: (1) replacement of the bulb (Rs. 150-200) frequently or (2) replacement of light source PCB (~Rs. 3K) in a year or so. If you are looking in that category, Olympus has a better microscope in Magnus-MLX-B. That's about Rs. 23.5K.

Oh dear .... there goes another 'budgeted' option :arghh: :arghh: . I was actually thinking of the LED option (not halogen) - would this also be a problem (with the Vision 2000) ?

And is the Magnus MLX-B - all ok scope or else, the labomed CxL [I do not wish to compromise on quality & a want a trouble free scope for years].
Note: I am settling for LED - so Magnus MLX-U model

How are Lawrence & Mayo scopes - prices start from 20k (they are ready to come over to my place for a demo)

methinks I have to ask my Boss for a raise :stop:
Should have tried spot-betting in the just concluded IPL - damm I knew the results of the final too (then I probably would have blown 1.5lac on this scope - phase contrast; darkfield; polarized - the works) :greedy:

Terry
 
I've read about special non-oil-immersion kind of 100x objectives. I've never seen them actually. They are pretty expensive I'd guess. Again, don't fret too much about the oil immersion thing of 100x. Its no big deal. Besides, 100x objectives are used much less than the other objectives. They have a very limited Depth-of-Field. Read about this aspect of microscopes to understand what I mean.


Magnus LED microscopes are still more expensive than their halogens. So will be way past your budget. So I believe Vision 2000 with LED should be good for you. I have absolutely no idea about the LED version of this microscope. So you are kind of on your own.

Haven't heard of Lawrence & Mayo microscopes at all. They are most probably a sticker brand. Getting microscopes from elsewhere and sticking their name on it. They were are great (British?) optical brand a long way back, I think. Much like another great optics brand which went by the name American Optical. Great microscopes about 50 years. But no longer existing in their original form now.

Regards,
Mohit.
www.BioZen.co.in
 
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