What India can learn from Israel

[blr_p]

For years i've heard about their tech but not much about its implementation in India. Now that will change.

 

[TheGreatOne]

Everyone can learn from jew overlods.
We just have to be good goy and they will bless us.

 

[blr_p]

hah, their problem to date was we treated them like a mistress, have fun in private but pretend not to know in public

We're way past being good goys

 

[rdst_1]

Apart from managing water, there is not much we need to learn when it comes to agriculture. Our farmers don't have an issue with production. We keep on breaking records for production year after year.
The main issue is that agriculture is still an unorganized sector and most farmers don't care about studying markets or acquiring customers. The few, who know how to sell, and consequently what and how much to grow, are doing pretty well for themselves earning crores every year.

 

[6pack]

We can learn from China too. They are converting desert sand into land for growing trees or crops.

 

[blr_p]

We can learn from China too. They are converting desert sand into land for growing trees or crops.

there are several problems with this
- they want to greenify the desert but not one word is mentioned about water. Where does that water come from or is there no shortage to begin with

- somehow we magically solve the water problem in the desert, they aren't talking abut growing food. They are growing shrubs to prevent and reverse further desertification. They will be at this until 2050

- when does the land become productive ? after 2050

- how much people to people contact we can have with China given how strained relations currently are is an open question. There are lots of things both can learn from each other given the large populations we have similar problems. But political relations aren't good. There is zero resolution of border dispute because it isn't a border dispute to begin with.

Compare that with what the Israelis are offering. Huge difference.

For ten years i've heard this yap about what Israel can do, guess what it only happened once we diplomatically recognised them. ie finally got the political right. Until our PM visited Israel nothing would move. Two months later Bibi comes over with a 120 member business delegation to talk shop.

Making farms more productive than they presently are. I understand that nasik oranges and grapes are a proudct of Israeli tech. The water management and what ideas they have are the most important. Nothing grows otherwise.

 

[blr_p]

Apart from managing water, there is not much we need to learn when it comes to agriculture. Our farmers don't have an issue with production. We keep on breaking records for production year after year.
The main issue is that agriculture is still an unorganized sector and most farmers don't care about studying markets or acquiring customers. The few, who know how to sell, and consequently what and how much to grow, are doing pretty well for themselves earning crores every year.

On a macro level i guess this covers it. How to fix things on the micro level though ?

what has to change before we stop reading all these suicide stories.

Govt has this MSP thing which just screws with the market. The last govt had it, so is this one. Why will a farmer care about anything else once he knows he will get paid regardless. That any loans will be waived as well. Basically this is a subsidy to keep farmers alive. All 47% of the population that includes them. Nothing changes in other words with such a regime because they are a significant vote bank and agitating constantly

Israelis get good output because they have collective farms. How do we do that here, no chance. if farms could be joined in some way ( not physically but in a cooperative say) then costs can be shared and better economies made.

And there is the question of why bother. Even if supply is up the cost to the consumer remains the same. No savings are made.

 

[6pack]

there are several problems with this
- they want to greenify the desert but not one word is mentioned about water. Where does that water come from or is there no shortage to begin with

- somehow we magically solve the water problem in the desert, they aren't talking abut growing food. They are growing shrubs to prevent and reverse further desertification. They will be at this until 2050

- when does the land become productive ? after 2050

- how much people to people contact we can have with China given how strained relations currently are is an open question. There are lots of things both can learn from each other given the large populations we have similar problems. But political relations aren't good. There is zero resolution of border dispute because it isn't a border dispute to begin with.

Compare that with what the Israelis are offering. Huge difference.

For ten years i've heard this yap about what Israel can do, guess what it only happened once we diplomatically recognised them. ie finally got the political right. Making farms more productive than they presently are. I understand that nasik oranges and grapes are a proudct of Israeli tech. The water management and what ideas they have are the most important. Nothing grows otherwise.

you didn’t watch the second video, right? In the second video, they are growing sunflower, tomatoes etc in 2nd year itself. The first video was trying to stop the desert from claiming more land. The second video is their results into turning desert land into land fit for cultivation. They used some sort of plant paste or something along with clay or some other powder to allow sand to retain water. The plant paste (not waste) brings back nitrogen to soil.

Does not matter where they are bringing water from. Once trees and plants take root, they will bring rainfall and water will seep into natural reservoirs. No trees or anything to bring down temps and no rain. Israel tech is all great, but Indian farmers are monkeys. They've chopped down all the trees near their farmland and will never see rain in the quantities that was falling years back. No wonder lots of places are getting turned into IT parks or smart cities or just lying vacant. One or two farmers saving water isn't going to do anything here. Go large scale like China. Force all farmers to adopt their tech.

 

[rdst_1]

On a macro level i guess this covers it. How to fix things on the micro level though ?

what has to change before we stop reading all these suicide stories.

Govt has this MSP thing which just screws with the market. The last govt had it, so is this one. Why will a farmer care about anything else once he knows he will get paid regardless. That any loans will be waived as well. Basically this is a subsidy to keep farmers alive. All 47% of the population that includes them. Nothing changes in other words with such a regime because they are a significant vote bank and agitating constantly

Israelis get good output because they have collective farms. How do we do that here, no chance. if farms could be joined in some way ( not physically but in a cooperative say) then costs can be shared and better economies made.

And there is the question of why bother. Even if supply is up the cost to the consumer remains the same. No savings are made.

The appeasment policies and the subsidies ****s it up for everyone, especially the people who can bring the change.
It has already bought enough problems whether it is at the industrial level, where companies are not afraid to make reckless decisions and operate even at huge losses because the govt will offer them subsidies or they will become NPA, or at the very low level where it is difficult to find labor because people can get rations for whole house at as low at 100 bucks.

The Kibbutz culture of Israel is definitely fascinating and can be very easily implemented. The problem is that, this sense of oneness amongst them has been ingrained due to what they went through. Our people have already forgotten that, despite us being ruled by a foreign government not so long ago.
The new leaders also try and follow the divide and rule policy and we, as a society, have seemed to learn nothing from our rich history.
I don't know how many times I have pitched the idea of co-operatives to my Mamaji and asked them to sell flour instead of wheat. But he tells me that the farmers of his village will never unite for such an endeavour.
I myself don't want to form a co-operative even though I have the oppurtunity, as the people I have seen around me, whom I will have to make as members, are neither sincere nor willing to take directions from someone who is new to farming like me.
Actions speak louder than words, so once I get things moving at full gallop, I'll find people to be more willing to listen and follow. There are many examples of people who have done this by making whole villages grow and sell produce together and the farmers there are very happy.

Setting an MSP for everything will be horrible. But the way the current market is setup for the farmers and how bad we have let the situation become, such drastic steps seem to be the only way to get back to a fair environment. However it still won't be as our implementations are nearly always disasters.

Same is true for how we are destroying nature, especially our rivers. Even there, we are letting situations go so bad that soon there will be riots for water.

 

[Fenix]

Apart from managing water, there is not much we need to learn when it comes to agriculture. Our farmers don't have an issue with production. We keep on breaking records for production year after year.
The main issue is that agriculture is still an unorganized sector and most farmers don't care about studying markets or acquiring customers. The few, who know how to sell, and consequently what and how much to grow, are doing pretty well for themselves earning crores every year.

I am from Shimla - On the same piece of land a farmer makes 20 lakhs by selling Apples and on the second one makes 5 lakhs. People are not keen to change or learn new ways., Those who do - stand the beating of the time while others perish.

 

[rdst_1]

I am from Shimla - On the same piece of land a farmer makes 20 lakhs by selling Apples and on the second one makes 5 lakhs. People are not keen to change or learn new ways., Those who do - stand the beating of the time while others perish.

I know what you are saying man. I have friends from the apple growing Kotkhai and even there, there is so much disparity between traditional and progressive farmers, although people from that area have come a long way. But still there are people over there who produce more from their 8 bighas than what some people grow from their 30.

However, Kotkhai is also an example of how greed, even though they are farmers, are destroying the surroundings. You must now that many of those farmers, especially the ones who had smaller land holdings, have destroyed the Devdar forests and converted forest land into illegal apple orchards. I remember just a month or so ago, many such illegal orchards were cut down by the forest department.

 

[blr_p]

you didn’t watch the second video, right? In the second video, they are growing sunflower, tomatoes etc in 2nd year itself. The first video was trying to stop the desert from claiming more land. The second video is their results into turning desert land into land fit for cultivation. They used some sort of plant paste or something along with clay or some other powder to allow sand to retain water. The plant paste (not waste) brings back nitrogen to soil.

I watched both to see how they solved the water problem. Not mentioned anywhere and is a curious omission since this is the Gobi desert we are talking about. They talk as if there is no water shortage.

When does the land become fit for cultivation? He mentioned things grew in the wild but it wasn't farms. So there is a long lead time here.

Does not matter where they are bringing water from. Once trees and plants take root, they will bring rainfall and water will seep into natural reservoirs. No trees or anything to bring down temps and no rain.

I don't understand how plants will bring rainfall. They certainly don't do that in Israel. No, water has to be pumped to them and very carefully managed to prevent loss.

Israel tech is all great, but Indian farmers are monkeys. They've chopped down all the trees near their farmland and will never see rain in the quantities that was falling years back. No wonder lots of places are getting turned into IT parks or smart cities or just lying vacant. One or two farmers saving water isn't going to do anything here. Go large scale like China. Force all farmers to adopt their tech.

In my state the problem is farm labour. Hard to find people who want to do this work. So people are developing land for other purposes. Residential or other. The Israelis depend on Thai's for seasonal farm work.

As for rain we have years with good monsoons and drought. A significant portion of people are dependent on monsoons.

China again is collectivised and they make laws that everybody has to comply. That isn't going to work in India.

Most valuable thing we can learn from China ? learn from their mistakes and they made loads of them.

 

[blr_p]

I don't know how many times I have pitched the idea of co-operatives to my Mamaji and asked them to sell flour instead of wheat. But he tells me that the farmers of his village will never unite for such an endeavour.
I myself don't want to form a co-operative even though I have the oppurtunity, as the people I have seen around me, whom I will have to make as members, are neither sincere nor willing to take directions from someone who is new to farming like me.
Actions speak louder than words, so once I get things moving at full gallop, I'll find people to be more willing to listen and follow. There are many examples of people who have done this by making whole villages grow and sell produce together and the farmers there are very happy.

ok, so there is some promise to co-ops. Problem you have is of credibility and of course everyone needs to pull their weight. It's a problem that happens often when land gets divided between descendants. Will they unite and build a big apartment complex ? Very difficult. Instead the land is divided into small plots and everybody has their own little castle.

Solving the problem of lack of oneness comes about when the simple question 'what's in it for me' can be suitably answered. Only if a collective results in tangible gains over and above the present will it ever come about. It needs to be a bottom up driven and not top down enforced

How did those villages that agreed to form a collective get started ? many examples you said

How homogeneous are they as in same community etc etc

Setting an MSP for everything will be horrible. But the way the current market is setup for the farmers and how bad we have let the situation become, such drastic steps seem to be the only way to get back to a fair environment. However it still won't be as our implementations are nearly always disasters.

Same is true for how we are destroying nature, especially our rivers. Even there, we are letting situations go so bad that soon there will be riots for water.

What this tells me is problems in this sector are good because money will be thrown at them if enough noise is made. If the problem goes away less money comes and people have to work and take on risk. So best is to keep things in a mess then everybody can cry, elections can be won and money continues to flow.

Same thing going on in Kashmir too

 

[Fenix]

I know what you are saying man. I have friends from the apple growing Kotkhai and even there, there is so much disparity between traditional and progressive farmers, although people from that area have come a long way. But still there are people over there who produce more from their 8 bighas than what some people grow from their 30.

However, Kotkhai is also an example of how greed, even though they are farmers, are destroying the surroundings. You must now that many of those farmers, especially the ones who had smaller land holdings, have destroyed the Devdar forests and converted forest land into illegal apple orchards. I remember just a month or so ago, many such illegal orchards were cut down by the forest department.

Yepp, thats the plight of my Great Nation. Its the people who are at fault and they are not thinking of growing indigenous varieties more like a sheep walk.

 

[rdst_1]

ok, so there is some promise to co-ops. Problem you have is of credibility and of course everyone needs to pull their weight. It's a problem that happens often when land gets divided between descendants. Will they unite and build a big apartment complex ? Very difficult. Instead the land is divided into small plots and everybody has their own little castle.

Solving the problem of lack of oneness comes about when the simple question 'what's in it for me' can be suitably answered. Only if a collective results in tangible gains over and above the present will it ever come about. It needs to be a bottom up driven and not top down enforced

How did those villages that agreed to form a collective get started ? many examples you said

How homogeneous are they as in same community etc etc

In most of the examples I have seen on the internet, it is usually an outsider who has come and united these groups of farmers. In most cases, the farmers with small land holdings and who were poor were the ones most amenable to hear out and join such initiatives.

But not always. There are many cases also where young educated Sarpanchs have done enormous work and made those villages into heaven. One such example is Hiware Bazar - http://www.downtoearth.org.in/coverage/hiware-bazar--a-village-with-54-millionaires-4039.

There are many more examples like this one across India. All it usually takes is just one intelligent and honest person and the ability of the people to look past their trivial differences and choose that person as their leader.

We usually are late to realize and correct our course. Till now, it has been still doable but who knows how far we end up destroying nature before we come to our senses next time.