Android-WP updates scene

6pack

ex-Mod
Note: Posts moved from a recommendation thread.

Micromax after sales is sketchy. You have better chance of winning lottery than getting service from these just born yesterday Indian mobile companies.

Stick with an Android phone if you want to get os upgrades in future. Plus you can't beat sheer volume of support from large number of android users in TE itself.

WP8 phones are good, but may not get future updates when Microsoft releases a new os.
 
You couldn't upgrade from 6.x to 7 too.
Giving excuse of kernel is not valid.

Charging customers for major upgrades has always been Microsoft's plan.
If Microsoft develops v9, they won't support wp8 to upgrade to 9. They allow small upgrades like 7 to 7.1 but not major version changes like available in android.
 
Giving excuse of kernel is not valid.
Why not? Granted that it is a very unsatisfying move from a customer's perspective, but it is completely valid. With enough manpower and money they could've actually made a complete new WP8 version running on old kernel, hence also run on old devices with their apps. But then all the apps made for the new WP8 would have to be written for the alternate WP8 too if you need them. And Microsoft would then be developing a operating system for a hardware which won't be released again.
Charging customers for major upgrades has always been Microsoft's plan.
Like they do with service packs? Or the upcoming Windows 8.1? MS hasn't charged for updates as of yet. There was a big debate that they might do with the next Windows update, but it turned out to be false.
If Microsoft develops v9, they won't support wp8 to upgrade to 9.
You don't know that. There isn't Wp9 planned yet and Microsoft has given assurance to minimum two years of updates. They didn't stop support for WP7 users. They had the WP7.5 update and then the WP7.8 update. In fact it is still supported and Nokia keeps releasing updates for their Wp7 devices even now.
They allow small upgrades like 7 to 7.1 but not major version changes like available in android.
So, if they named it 8, but restricted features, then it would satisfy users? WP8 hasn't even been out for a year and the next major update is expected next month. Another update is set to follow by the year's end and it will be available for all the current Windows Phone 8 smartphones. If you buy a phone released today, you are assured to get updates until June 2015.
 
No doubt we are derailing the TS's thread (sorry TS), but why are you confusing yourself between major version upgrade and minor version updates? 7.0 to 7.5 or 7.8 is a minor update. 7.8 didn't have all the features of v8 I believe. Minor version updates have all security patches and some features in them updated.
So naturally you will get those security updates even if wp7 is not developed anymore.

7.x to 8.0 is a major version upgrade. Just like upgrading from xp to vista or windows 7. Why won't Microsoft charge and restrict users from upgrading? Because they do the same with windows. With windows at least you can keep same pc, but since Microsoft has specific minimum hardware requirements for each iteration of their mobile os you can't upgrade to a newer version. Plus they work closely with phone manufacturer's to push the new phones out. Also you must have noticed that you won't get wp8 to download anywhere except from official sources (if they feel like it).

And thinking that wp9 won't be developed soon is a bit short sighted. If Microsoft wants to win against Android they need to bring out new versions every year or so. And with new better features in them. New features means new kernel as in Microsoft's case. So new phones with faster hardware. :|

Edit: forgot to add why kernel updates don't warrant hardware changes.
Example of android. Gingerbread was based on Linux kernel v 2.3x and new ICS and Jellybean is based on newer linux v3.0x kernel. People on gingerbread can upgrade to ics without changing the phone.

You can't do this with wp7 to wp8.
Same will be the case when wp9 or whatever it's called comes out.
 
Edit: forgot to add why kernel updates don't warrant hardware changes.
Example of android. Gingerbread was based on Linux kernel v 2.3x and new ICS and Jellybean is based on newer linux v3.0x kernel. People on gingerbread can upgrade to ics without changing the phone.

You can't do this with wp7 to wp8.
Same will be the case when wp9 or whatever it's called comes out.

You clearly don't understand the kernels then. Android's kernel update from ICS to Jelly Bean was a iterative one, not a complete overhaul. Think of it as going to Playstation 1 to Playstation 2, and from there to Playstation 3. Microsoft completely screwed up when they released WP7 as they did so in urgency without much planning.

http://crave.cnet.co.uk/mobiles/windows-phone-7-was-doomed-by-design-microsoft-admits-50008466/
http://mashable.com/2012/06/25/lumia-why-no-upgrade/

The change in WP8 was to integrate all their different products into one ecosystem - with Windows 8, Windows RT, Xbox, Skype, Skydrive etc..

Updates assurances for two years aren't plenty? That's what even Android manufacturers give, those who support their customers anyway. I know we all geeks root our phone and get the latest and best ROM on our hardware, but what about regular users? Are the people who were using WP7 devices initially cannot use them now? I know plenty who still use them and they still get the updates to their operating system. Microsoft is supporting the OS till September 2014, and that is more important when you're planning to buy a new WP8 smartphone today.

I clearly think that WP9 will be released on current Wp8 devices, but you clearly think otherwise. Only time will tell now, let's wait and see.
 
Read my post again. I didn't say upgrading from ics to jellybean. I know that jellybean is update to ics kernel.

I said people can upgrade from gingerbread to ics. You agree that both are different kernels right?
 
Micromax after sales is sketchy. You have better chance of winning lottery than getting service from these just born yesterday Indian mobile companies.

Stick with an Android phone if you want to get os upgrades in future. Plus you can't beat sheer volume of support from large number of android users in TE itself.

WP8 phones are good, but may not get future updates when Microsoft releases a new os.


Totally misleading post, sad to see this coming from a moderator!!

It should be " stick with an Android phone if you DONT want OS upgrades in future and want to waste time flashing buggy custom roms"

WP8 will definitely get future OS upgrades from Microsoft, they have already cleared this point:

http://www.slashgear.com/windows-phone-8-will-be-upgradeable-27271753/
http://bgr.com/2013/02/28/windows-phone-8-upgrade-348935/
http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/119792-microsoft-planning-upgrade-cycle-windows-phone-8
 
^^ Not agreeing with 6 pack but most Android devices do receive updates so your statement is not just misleading but plain wrong.

My Burst has received an official update to ICS from GB. Similarly my dads LG Optimus One received an update from Froyo to GB.

And my friends Samsung Galaxy Advance actually jumped ICS and went directly to JB from GB. All these updates are official updates only.
 
^^ Not agreeing with 6 pack but most Android devices do receive updates so your statement is not just misleading but plain wrong.

My Burst has received an official update to ICS from GB. Similarly my dads LG Optimus One received an update from Froyo to GB.

And my friends Samsung Galaxy Advance actually jumped ICS and went directly to JB from GB. All these updates are official updates only.
So did WP7 devices to WP7.5 and then Wp7.8. They still get updates from MS and Nokia in case of Lumia.

The mod was actually scaremongering that no updates would be available when the present situation and as well as the current company policy suggests otherwise.
 
^^ Not agreeing with 6 pack but most Android devices do receive updates so your statement is not just misleading but plain wrong.

My Burst has received an official update to ICS from GB. Similarly my dads LG Optimus One received an update from Froyo to GB.

And my friends Samsung Galaxy Advance actually jumped ICS and went directly to JB from GB. All these updates are official updates only.


Your statement is factually wrong, Most Android phones sold are low and mid-range phones and most of them don't receive OS updates.

Your Pantech Burst receiving ICS update is laughable as the phone was launched in 2012 with GB whereas ICS launched in 2011 itself !!

I agree, some hardware manufacturers give OS upgrades for their High-end and mid-range for one year but that is not the case with the majority of Android phones sold.
 
Your statement is factually wrong, Most Android phones sold are low and mid-range phones and most of them don't receive OS updates.

Your Pantech Burst receiving ICS update is laughable as the phone was launched in 2012 with GB whereas ICS launched in 2011 itself !!

I agree, some hardware manufacturers give OS upgrades for their High-end and mid-range for one year but that is not the case with the majority of Android phones sold.

We are referring to phones with a budget of 10-15k. Almost all phones in this price range have received updates. Why are you referring to below 10k phones when no one is talking about those devices ?

And I am not even talking about custom ROMs which anyone can do.

And you may laugh all you want but the was launched in Jan 2012 and ICS was announced only in Oct 2011. Lets not forget that Pantech is a small company with long development time not like Nokia and Pantech updated the OS to the latest 4.0.4 when it was released. LG, Samsung, Sony and HTC have all given updates for most of their phones in this price bracket.

However none of the WP7 devices received any update to WP8 regardless of price range nor was WP6x devices allowed to upgrade to WP7x.
 
However none of the WP7 devices received any update to WP8 regardless of price range.
They received an update to WP 7.5 Mango and then WP 7.8 Apollo. All of the phones received at the same time and they didn't have to wait much time. They are still getting updates and will continue to do so until September 2014.
 
Yes but not to WP8 though. I will agree that it was good MS upgraded every phone regardless of manufacturer but at the same time all the top tier Android manufacturers have given updates to their mid-tier and top tier devices to JB.
 
Yes but not to WP8 though. I will agree that it was good MS upgraded every phone regardless of manufacturer but at the same time all the top tier Android manufacturers have given updates to their mid-tier and top tier devices to JB.
Yep, no WP8 was due to a mistake by MS when they launched WP7 without much thought. They used Windows CE kernel, but had to change to Windows NT to bring mobile and desktop into one fold.

Unless MS changes the kernel again, which I doubt they'll do (all of their OSs are on the same kernel now), all the current WP8 phones will receive future updates until at least 2015 if not longer.
 
Stick with an Android phone if you want to get os upgrades in future. Plus you can't beat sheer volume of support from large number of android users in TE itself.

WP8 phones are good, but may not get future updates when Microsoft releases a new os.
Very glad I found this thread as i've been recently thinking along the lines of TCO. If i'm going to be plunking down Rs.20 - 30k+ for a device i expect to use it for 3 years. I buy stuff to own not to resell.

So the first thing that needs to be considered is warranty. Let's see what it says for Nokia

  1. twelve (12) months for the mobile device and accessories (whether included in the mobile device sales package or sold separately) other than the consumable parts and accessories listed in (2) and (3) below;
  2. six (6) months for the following consumable parts and accessories: batteries, chargers, desk stands, headsets, cables and covers; and
  3. ninety (90) days for the media on which any software is provided,e.g. CD-rom, memory card.
As far as your national laws permit, the Warranty Period will not be extended or renewed or otherwise affected due to subsequent resale, repair or replacement of the Product. However, repaired part(s) will be warranted for the remainder of the original Warranty Period or for sixty (60) days from the date of repair, whichever is longer.

AFAIK, 12 months is the same for Apple, Samsung, Sony and every other mobile device provider, in India. After 12 months these companies do now want to know you. This has a direct bearing on whether you can expect to get OS updates. Well, if they do not provide a warranty beyond 12 months for their phone then they have effectively washed their hands of their responsibility to you the customer. OS updates in this case depend on the OS vendor and whether third parties can modify the initial release for the phones concerned.

Any one want to tell me what the resale price for a flagship device will be once its out of warranty ? That would be the real test for resale value. How much of a hit in % can one expect from the original price.

Charging customers for major upgrades has always been Microsoft's plan.
True but its also true that m$ has historically been very good with backwards compatibility. Apps bought on previous OS versions usually worked on later OS versions. Granted this philosophy was the case for PC's whether it will extend to mobiles remains to be seen. But i would give m$ the benefit of the doubt until their behaviour dictates otherwise.

This leads to the next issue, if you want to use apps and they demand an up-todate OS, your use of the phone starts to diminish. People use apps, the OS is transparent to them, nobody gives a damn what OS they use so long as the apps they want continue to run.

The difficult bit to assess here is how mature the OS happens to be. If its past the major overhaul mark then future changes will be incremental and not major forcing faster obsolesence of the device.

HC->ICS is possible
GB-> ICS might not be, depending on the device.

ICS->JB->LP should be

is WP8->Wp9 possible Wp8 is more evolved than WP7.

There isn't Wp9 planned yet and Microsoft has given assurance to minimum two years of updates. They didn't stop support for WP7 users. They had the WP7.5 update and then the WP7.8 update. In fact it is still supported and Nokia keeps releasing updates for their Wp7 devices even now.

WP8 hasn't even been out for a year and the next major update is expected next month. Another update is set to follow by the year's end and it will be available for all the current Windows Phone 8 smartphones. If you buy a phone released today, you are assured to get updates until June 2015.
That is an interesting point, even though the manufacturers only provide 1 year, m$ is offering two years. This might have something to do with the fact that in Europe Nokia provides 2 years of warranty for the device unlike India where its only one year.

So basically if a new OS comes out on a two year cycle then do not expect app developers to build for the older OS. Your effective use of a phone is 2 years and not three, well you could push it but if the apps you use dictate latest & greatest then 2 years is the max you can afford to hold on to your mobile device.

In the desktop world, processing power has not been the limitation to upgrading to a major version OS, but rather the lack of device drivers for essential peripherals. Taking things to a mobile level and does anyone know who makes the various peripherals for their devices. Who makes the camera, the wifi interface etc. Nobody knows. This info is pretty damn hard to find. So its likely that the vendors for these devices will not be releasing updated device drivers for their devices they made a couple of years ago. Nobody is going to be satisified if they managed to upgrade to a major OS and found wifi or camera all of sudden does not work.

So all this means getting a mobile device to last beyond 3 years is going to be challenging regardless of the OS. But, the longer you hold onto the device the longer you get to amortise the initial cost. This forces people into the mid-range or worse still, the low end where updating to even a minor OS version isn't feasible.

I clearly think that WP9 will be released on current Wp8 devices, but you clearly think otherwise. Only time will tell now, let's wait and see.
You say this based on the maturity of WP8 and that going to Wp9 is iterative and not major.

Bottomline : if you're putting up 20-30k then what is a realistic timeframe to be able to productively use the device regardless of OS. Is there a way to generalise it, 2, 3, 4 years ? This is a rather crucial decision point when deciding how much to spend. As the higher asking price is insurance into the future. How long for ?
 
Totally misleading post, sad to see this coming from a moderator!!

It should be " stick with an Android phone if you DONT want OS upgrades in future and want to waste time flashing buggy custom roms"

WP8 will definitely get future OS upgrades from Microsoft, they have already cleared this point:

http://www.slashgear.com/windows-phone-8-will-be-upgradeable-27271753/
http://bgr.com/2013/02/28/windows-phone-8-upgrade-348935/
http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/119792-microsoft-planning-upgrade-cycle-windows-phone-8

The key bit is this..

“Windows Phone 8 can evolve. We have an architecture that enables portability and is fundamentally hardware independent,” he said. “As the market evolves and customer requirements demand it, we’ll evaluate options.
See, manufacturers try to cheap out on components. WP8 might be hardware independent but devices need drivers to operate and if the component manufacturer does not release drivers for the future versions then nothing can be done. What this does is get m$ off the hook and does not guarantee future compatibility.

your device might work with the new OS but if the wifi or camera stops operating you still have a non-functioning device :)
 
Windows mobile 6 is an ancient OS. There were plenty of iterations of Windows Mobile, so that branch got all the updates until the architecture it was made for got obsolete and they had to completely re-do the OS.

Windows Phone 7 was an interim OS. They ****ed up on it.

Windows Phone 8 Is again a whole new OS, based on the Windows8 kernel and will be updated to windows phone 9 and following updates if the hardware supports.

That apart, once an android phone is released, all it gets, that is, IF it gets, is major updates like ICS to jelly bean. My Lumia 520 keeps getting small updates that changes the settings and brings small improvements all the time.

There are two more updates in the pipeline, before the Windows Phone 9 with some feature and stability updates.

----
That said, After using WP8 for 2 months, I was using a friend's iPhone 4S yesterday, updated to latest iOs and it felt ancient. Like really ancient. Once you get used to Windows phone, there is really nothing that will satisfy you. Everything else feels old and crappy. Same with android. My tab has Jelly Bean and I cant bear to use that crap for more than a few minutes.

I am a decently heavy user and barring a few small aberrations, I cant think of a single thing that would stop you from using WP8 or a Lumia Phone. And I use the most basic budget phone Lumia 520. So that says a LOT. :)
 
That said, After using WP8 for 2 months, I was using a friend's iPhone 4S yesterday, updated to latest iOs and it felt ancient. Like really ancient. Once you get used to Windows phone, there is really nothing that will satisfy you. Everything else feels old and crappy. Same with android. My tab has Jelly Bean and I cant bear to use that crap for more than a few minutes.
Surely, this is a UI metaphor thing more than not. Its catchy and easier and this is apparent to see early on.
 
But the question remains the same why wp7 can't be upgraded to wp8 ?
M$ says it has a different kernel(nt) and wp8 is made for multicore processor(another hardware requirement)

But can different kernel be a barrier in upgradation path ?
Most of the android devices run different versions of hardware and as we know linux kernel support different variety of hardware. Android run on single core as well as dual core(why wp8 can not run on single core ?)

HTC hd2 is a windows mobile 6.5 which is not upgradable to wp7 according to M$ because of hardware limitation but we know that HTC hd2 run wp7 smoothly. Heck it even runs wp7.8 smoothly and wp8 is already ported.
Windows xp, windows vista, windows 7 are based on the same kernel(ce) and run on same hardware without any problem. Windows 8 is nt kernel based os but still it runs on the same hardware. Then what's wrong with wp8 ?

When wp7 was launched then after some time m$ annonced their new wp8 plan, but they never told that it will not support new devices. They want to fool their customer again because if they told the truth no one would have bought wp7.5

Actually m$ only knows to make money, they should understand that it is a smartphone world and choices are vast.
 
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