TinTinSnowy
Herald
Apple admits to secretly giving governments push notification data
- Thread starter TEUser2K1
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I'd like to drop a few lines on this topic. Any logical counter argument is welcome.
Apple is getting some strong and passionate backing here as if they are the mighty saints to be trusted with eyes closed. No corporation is, and the sooner we realize it, the better. This article is anything but 'clickbait'. Here is why -
We tend to forget that not everybody is tech-literate in this world. They don't need to be! A surgeon needs to focus on his surgery, not the tech that powers his smartphone. People buy phones for their needs. And how do they pick it? Mostly based on the Ads they see. Ads exist to promote stuff and establish an image of X or Y product. Whatever a brand shows on Ads is likely to be blindly believed by the majority. That's just how the world functions.
This is not about X being better than Y. Rather, it is about making people aware that with Apple too, they are as likely to be targeted by govts. as they are with Androids.
The article mentions:
First, none of us can tell what amount the 'unknown number of people' actually is! Second, what guarantee is there that all the tracked individuals are actually guilty of anything? There could be hundreds, thousands, millions of innocent users whose private info is being eavesdropped by the govt. without their consent.
Articles such as this are absolutely critical to educate the non-techies about the possible human rights violation they might be subjected to at any given time. They must know that they will be targeted by the govt regardless of the brand of their smartphone.
I believe that @TEUser2K1 just wanted to share this news with us. Nothing in his OP suggests that he was 'over-excited'. Just because a bunch of nerds know it doesn't mean that the avg user does. We see these articles more often as we are interested in tech in general. The frustration here is not because the article is clickbait, rather, it is because we have been reading similar news for years. And ofc we want to take sides as we have our personal brand favouritism.
Apple is getting some strong and passionate backing here as if they are the mighty saints to be trusted with eyes closed. No corporation is, and the sooner we realize it, the better. This article is anything but 'clickbait'. Here is why -
We tend to forget that not everybody is tech-literate in this world. They don't need to be! A surgeon needs to focus on his surgery, not the tech that powers his smartphone. People buy phones for their needs. And how do they pick it? Mostly based on the Ads they see. Ads exist to promote stuff and establish an image of X or Y product. Whatever a brand shows on Ads is likely to be blindly believed by the majority. That's just how the world functions.
This is not about X being better than Y. Rather, it is about making people aware that with Apple too, they are as likely to be targeted by govts. as they are with Androids.
The article mentions:
First, none of us can tell what amount the 'unknown number of people' actually is! Second, what guarantee is there that all the tracked individuals are actually guilty of anything? There could be hundreds, thousands, millions of innocent users whose private info is being eavesdropped by the govt. without their consent.
Articles such as this are absolutely critical to educate the non-techies about the possible human rights violation they might be subjected to at any given time. They must know that they will be targeted by the govt regardless of the brand of their smartphone.
I believe that @TEUser2K1 just wanted to share this news with us. Nothing in his OP suggests that he was 'over-excited'. Just because a bunch of nerds know it doesn't mean that the avg user does. We see these articles more often as we are interested in tech in general. The frustration here is not because the article is clickbait, rather, it is because we have been reading similar news for years. And ofc we want to take sides as we have our personal brand favouritism.
TinTinSnowy
Herald
@rootyme Hmm. Even many tech enthusiasts here are often influenced to blindly support their favourite brand, regardless of the questionable decisions they make. Can't do much to help them.
@rootyme fully agree with your view, just wanted the information to be out there for average person to understand. The reality is that even I fell for pro-privacy music from Apple and wanted to buy one. It is then their image scanning news came out, so dropped out. In reality my smart device usage is extremely low, only wanted to keep some banking, legal info, etc safely. I found Samsung Safe Folder (Knox) should be enough for me, don;t know about similar technology for individuals from other Android phone providers.
Going out of context here, but news below also may be interesting:
www.onmanorama.com
Police officers said that the vital clue that led to the abductors was the CCTV footage of the blue car in which they travelled to Tenkasi. But, if this clue had not been received, the accused would have been certainly traced with the IP address data a day later.
Going out of context here, but news below also may be interesting:
Child abduction case: How Tom & Jerry cartoons helped police identify suspects
The child was abducted from Oyur in Kollam district around 4.30 pm on November 27 and she was reportedly shown Tom and Jerry cartoons at night, when.kollam abduction case, kollam child missing case, kollam child kidnapping case, abigel sara reji, kollam child missing case accused, kerala police...
www.onmanorama.com
Police officers said that the vital clue that led to the abductors was the CCTV footage of the blue car in which they travelled to Tenkasi. But, if this clue had not been received, the accused would have been certainly traced with the IP address data a day later.
rsaeon
Herald
It works well enough for me, apart from my main Gmail and Google Pay account, none of the other Google accounts have my name or my phone number. My parent's home address has been public on the Internet since my first domain twenty years ago, so it's just my phone number that I change every five years or so.
Contact linking is something I'm not concerned about, I estimate a few hundred people have my number saved. I don't want to make it known that I know those people. They're free to claim that they know me. This is one of the reasons why I'm slow to reply on WhatsApp, I've forgotten which forum member has what phone number, ha.
The idea isn't to hide or conceal information, it's to disperse and obfuscate information enough where 'plausible deniability can be pleaded in a court of law'. If that's even a thing.
I'm also always sure to access Internet through cgnat, home wifi is on Excel Media which has the same public IP for two hundred other connections in my locality. Same with mobile, I use BSNL primarily for their ineptitude with everything. They're more likely to accidently delete my data logs than they are to hand over them to any governmental entity. For other cases, I have Tailscale to route mobile traffic through my home Internet connection.
For me, it's a case of choosing the enemy of my enemy. I've been hopping between Vivo and Xiaomi the last few years. Health/sleep tracking is with Huawei. The Chinese government hasn't yet exposed themselves as harbouring potentially malafide intentions. The same cannot be said about American/European governments though.
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This is a very persuasive argument for people with no clue about graph databases. Do you also have an argument for people who do know what graph databases are ?
Ah, I can still make my name in child abduction industry. I download videos in advance and show only those to my son.
@kiran6680 , NB:
A police officer said that they searched for Tom and Jerry cartoons on YouTube and showed three or four of them to the child, who identified one particular cartoon. The URL of this cartoon was sent to the Cyber Cell. Help was sought from Google to trace the IP address, but it was not received, said the officer. Finally, the data was collected from the Internet gateway, he added.
Emphasized are is what is interesting. What if kidnappers used VPN ? Could that have made them primary target ?
A police officer said that they searched for Tom and Jerry cartoons on YouTube and showed three or four of them to the child, who identified one particular cartoon. The URL of this cartoon was sent to the Cyber Cell. Help was sought from Google to trace the IP address, but it was not received, said the officer. Finally, the data was collected from the Internet gateway, he added.
Emphasized are is what is interesting. What if kidnappers used VPN ? Could that have made them primary target ?
desiibond
Keymaster
Drop this act of 'hey, listen to Saint Rootyme as I share looooooooong post of wisdom without understanding the discussion'. Who is calling Apple saints or did I mention that I trust Apple eyes closed? That article was a clickbait and written in a way to create FUD. Next time you jump into a discussion, spend some time to understand what we are discussing. Stop assuming things. OP still does not understand the difference between selling data and sharing data with authorities. Looks like you too do not.
Each person is an object here. Graph databases are very good in creating relations and links between objects. Unlike traditional SQL DBs, these are very very good in establishing relations and links between objects. See this video for example. If you take me for example, company would have developed massive data and attach all those properties and then link with other people who have their own properties. I can then run queries to find people with same behaviour pattern or those who are related or from same location having similar interests.
While other steps taken does help with reducing getting your behaviour mapped, not storing contacts does not help at all in today's world. Saving contacts is usually two way. If you have stored contact of another person (if you leave aside transactional people), the other person would have stored your contact as well. So, even though you have not stored contacts, the other 100 or 500 or 1000 people have already stored your contact and the new models would have made you part of those clusters. Not to forget that every AndroidOS tracks call logs. Even if you did not store a contact, as you make few calls to another contact and given that they too call you, linking is done. Add location tracking to this and the linking/relation is established strongly among those who visit your place.
I even went to the extent of disabling location tracking, YT history, search history and what not. Later I moved to Bing for search, further avoiding Google services. The only Google service I still rely on is Maps for traffic and direction. Unfortunately, I do not have solid alternative for this. Tried various other apps and none are as accurate as Google (as every Tom Dick and Harry are using Google location tracking). It gives me goosebumps whenever I think how Google knows everything that every individual does in entire world. That is scary amount of private data that they are selling for ad money.
ROFLMAO. You sound exactly like all those misinformation spreaders on Twitter. "I just shared from so and so website". Boss, this is a tech forum, the least you can do is understand if it is clickbait or not before 'Sharing for the greater good of humanity'. Have very strong feeling that you shared the article in a hurry to be the first to share here. And now, you are trying hard to prove that it is not a clickbait.
Thanks for confirming that you do not understand these devices and services and you just shared a juicy article.
Stop being WhatsApp University Graduate who shares 'news' left and right without validating the content.
Finally, you understood that it was a clickbait. And it was not a boo boo from Arstechnica. Arstechnica wanted a clickbait article. Desperate attempts from site fast losing readers.
Problem here is people sharing misinformation to be the first with the news. 'This' is what the problem is. There is nothing wrong if someone else shared the news first. Just don't be the one sharing misinformation. I don't care if it is about Apple or Google. I hate misinformation and click baits and people who have this desire to be the first to share news, especially when it is news that puts a company or individual in bad light.
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> Thanks for confirming that you do not understand these devices and services and you just shared a juicy article.
Just to clarify, in case I didn't convey it properly. There was a time when Apple Mac systems were powerful in editing images, audio and video, far better than Intel systems. Now not so much, that was what I meant, not about iPhones, iPads, etc.
Rest of your crass ramblings are deservedly ignored, since those are not worth any discussion. Others too understand technology, not just you.
rsaeon
Herald
My main concern with privacy is what can be revealed during a time sensitive detainment. Whether it's on the street by a police officer or at an airport by customs and border patrol — in both cases your phone has to be surrendered so I'd want to give as little information as possible while still appearing as if there's nothing being concealed.
I've had my phone cloned by countries both east and west of India during my travels, so this approach to privacy is the result of iterating upon those experiences.
In those situations they're aren't going to send a legal notice or court subpoena to Google for whatever information they have about me. They have at most a few hours to see if I'm a person of interest or not and then decide to keep me detained or let me go. They're not specifically concerned about me, they're looking for someone matching a profile. It's basically an opportunistic situation, and you're trying your best to be just another fish in the sea.
desiibond
Keymaster
So you had zero idea about what that article was about, what APNs is and what notifications show. You saw some lines that made you feel that this is not in line with Apple's privacy policy and you ran to post it here. Next time when you try to share something, understand it first. Least you can do is verify if that is true or not.
Say it straight na that you did not understand anything that I explained (about privacy, about APNs, about notifications, about legal requests), that it looked like ramblings.
DM Me. I know another person who has to go to this level to keep himself safe from prying eyes
On a serious note, how often does customs officer goes through your phone? I went once and customs barely checked (probably because it was business visa). Can they legally clone your phone just like that?
> So you had zero idea about what that article was about, what APNs is and what notifications show. You saw some lines that made you feel that this is not in line with Apple's privacy policy and you ran to post it here. Next time when you try to share something, understand it first. Least you can do is verify if that is true or not.
Jeez dude, you are a horse with a blinker hood ?
The point was, I am well versed with Apple devices, much better than you (unlike you earlier tried to show). Most probably, if you are young, I have worked with Apple devices (not iphones, but systems used in multimedia) much before you learned English alphabets.
Had RHCE certificate at one point, had MCSE years back too. Again, to clarify that I'm neutral towards any technology.
Also was directly involved in deploying secure MDM & BYOD solutions for prominent telephony service provider outside India for thousands of smart devices still in use in multiple countries.
So, you can stop your silly holier than thou crap preaching. Sheesh...
Thought of not responding, but you and your comments seems to be really immature and reeks megalomania, probably stereotypical of some naive iSnobbery device fanbios.
Jeez dude, you are a horse with a blinker hood ?
The point was, I am well versed with Apple devices, much better than you (unlike you earlier tried to show). Most probably, if you are young, I have worked with Apple devices (not iphones, but systems used in multimedia) much before you learned English alphabets.
Had RHCE certificate at one point, had MCSE years back too. Again, to clarify that I'm neutral towards any technology.
Also was directly involved in deploying secure MDM & BYOD solutions for prominent telephony service provider outside India for thousands of smart devices still in use in multiple countries.
So, you can stop your silly holier than thou crap preaching. Sheesh...
Thought of not responding, but you and your comments seems to be really immature and reeks megalomania, probably stereotypical of some naive iSnobbery device fanbios.
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Ok, this gentleman is clearly being disrespectful to the OP here. Borderline keyboard warrior stuff this. No disrespect intended but this doesn't look like a healthy discussion with someone repeatedly trying to insult a guy.
- "Here is Apple's statement to curb this excitement among those who do not have money to buy iPhones and Macs.
"
- "I just don’t understand why some start salivating the moment they see some random clickbait news about Apple."
Clearly you are a little too passionate about Apple.
Gotta love the passion oozing out of every single response by you. Nobody here is matching that energy.
I just went through your replies like
- "Here is Apple's statement to curb this excitement among those who do not have money to buy iPhones and Macs.
"- "I just don’t understand why some start salivating the moment they see some random clickbait news about Apple."
Clearly you are a little too passionate about Apple.
You should take the issue to the guys over at Ars: press@arstechnica.com
Have a feeling that the world is ending tomorrow. Must be true cuz I feel so.
I thought this was TechEnclave and not AppeasementEnclave? Is there a rule on this forum that states users can only share news that cater to your interest? If ArsTechnica is a bad source, let the Admins decide if it is to be removed. If you think OP is intentionally misleading members of the forum you may contact the admins. You should also contact Google and lodge a complaint to discredit Ars as a reputable source.
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desiibond
Keymaster
LOL. From what I see, you did some video editing on a Mac. iPhones work in a different way compared to ancient Macs. Sorry to say this. You have no clue how Apple services and iPhones work today. Your knowledge is based on video editing on Mac and I am trying to tell you how data flows on an iPhone. No wonder you are not able to understand my point. Just because you used an ancient Apple computer does not mean that you are well versed with today's Apple devices.
MDMs and BYODs are way different compared to APNS and how data flows. Your RHCE and MCSE have nothing related to how an application works, especially one that is on a smartphone. You look more like a sysadmin and are acting like an application developer. Please drop the act of trying to justify you know this stuff. You do not seem to have first-hand experience of using Apple devices of this age and you (definitely) do not how data flows in an ecosystem. Forget about Apple. I have strong feeling that you do not even know how notifications work on Android.
Immature was you sharing article without validating.
You just contradicted yourself. Not storing contacts, if done by both sides, would help by your own statement.
...
I know that, that's why I asked for an argument for people who do know that. As per your own statement, graph databases here collect zero information on their own. I just "contacted" my neighbour through the window. Given your lack of definition of "contact", how is that "technology" of graph databases making Google aware of that "contact" ?
> MDMs and BYODs are way different compared to APNS and how data flows.
Now very clear that you are a mere keyboard warrior and have zero idea about what you are talking about.
If one implement & administer MDM and BYOD solutions by enterprise vendors for smartphones , they know what they are talking about.
Dude, bye. Enough.
Now very clear that you are a mere keyboard warrior and have zero idea about what you are talking about.
If one implement & administer MDM and BYOD solutions by enterprise vendors for smartphones , they know what they are talking about.
Dude, bye. Enough.
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desiibond
Keymaster
If done by both sides, it may help. How many in this world keep contacts away from their phones? Only people I see are senior citizens who still use phonebook. Very few consciously keep contacts away. In thie world of truecaller and call logs, nothing will stop companies from attaching name to phone number.
In very simple terms, Graph Databases give an easier way to build relations between nodes, to build complext properties for each node and GraphQL makes it easier to identify nodes based on complex details. Contact is just one example. This type of database makes it easier to profile a person and then pull reports of like minded people. This is then used to push ads to their devices, be it phone or PC. You can do this with traditional DB but it takes a lot of effort. These DBs are heavily used in eCommerce platforms. If you want to learn more, read this whitepaper https://neo4j.com/use-cases/retail/
Let me explain in layman terms. Installing apps/profiles and developing software/apps are two very different things. You are MDM/BYOD admin if you are working on MDM management. Please stop acting like a developer and please drop the act of 'I know devices in an out'. I have seen similar behavior by some in my org. Install software remotely and they act like they designed the software.
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People not storing contacts ?
1. My maid . Her phone doesn't have internet either.
2. Various service providers, who get calls from different people, and get full information of the service to be provided in each call. Often use landlines.
Now you are saying "it may help". Contradicting your previous statement again.
Didn't answer the simplest question. Contradicting yourself. If these tactics are required to make your point, what is the point ?
desiibond
Keymaster
Thank you for your pravachan Saint Rootyme. Thank you for helping me understand that we should not point out mistakes and react to sarcasm.
> You are MDM/BYOD admin if you are working on MDM management. Please stop acting like a developer and please drop the act of 'I know devices in an out'.
In general, it is not application developers who decide how their application works. It is architectural designers and those from levels up. Not keyboard warriors.
> Please stop acting like a developer and please drop the act of 'I know devices in an out'. I have seen similar behavior by some in my org. Install software remotely and they act like they designed the software.
You reeks like a sysadmin joke.
Top developers know what they are doing, but your class of discussions prove your are not one.
Again, bye.
In general, it is not application developers who decide how their application works. It is architectural designers and those from levels up. Not keyboard warriors.
> Please stop acting like a developer and please drop the act of 'I know devices in an out'. I have seen similar behavior by some in my org. Install software remotely and they act like they designed the software.
You reeks like a sysadmin joke.
Top developers know what they are doing, but your class of discussions prove your are not one.
Again, bye.
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