Review Bosch SMS60L12IN Dishwasher Review

blr_p · Aug 8, 2022

rdst_1 said:
I don't understand how someone needs 10 minutes to load a dishwasher. It would hardly take me 2-3 minutes, but also, why do you need to load it all at once. The way we use our DW is that we keep loading it as the dishes get dirty and then run it when it gets full or when we need the dishes. Also, if someone says that they can wash a full load by hand in 15 minutes and give the same wash quality as a DW, then I think they are mistaken.

That was in reference to a fully loaded tabletop dishwasher. Why not?

If you have hot water, grease washes off easily with liquid Pril. If you don't have hot water then mop up oil with a piece of newspaper.

Now you have a full size/14 plate so double the time. Half an hour is a long time. I can see the argument to get a dishwasher if you have that kind of load.

My argument if you read is against the tabletop, not full size. I would advocate a full size over a tabletop

rdst_1 said:
Also, the best part I found about using a DW, apart from the quality of wash, is how little water it uses. We use 2 modes only - Quick which gives as good a wash quality as other modes in just 30 minutes and Auto which takes 1h 20 minutes,

And then who dries them? They won't dry in the machine as if they were left on a dish rack.

Is water savings significant compared to increased power consumption?

She mentioned one unit per wash. So that is two units per day. That is the equivalent of two geezers.

rdst_1 said:
but I think people forget that these longer modes also provide you with completely dried utensils

Which is what you want if it is going back into the cupboard

I visited a relative some time back and was surprised to see him washing by hand. When asked what is wrong with their full-size dishwasher. Nothing wrong. The load was not enough to use it. huh!

lockhrt999 said:
Full size DW have height of 85 cm but Indian kitchen countertops are low so they can't accommodate full size DW under. It's not like my kitchen is small but current design can't accept a full size DW. I will have to keep it standalone like fridge.

View attachment 142253

It looks really nice but I'm asking myself why you could not customise it to fit a full-size machine. Wasn't that possible? The countertop would be higher so the cupboards would have to be smaller.

Why does Indian anything not allow that? Modular comes in one size onlee !!

A lot of bending there if you keep it where the arrow is. It's supposed to be tabletop ie. no bending but you are using it under the table

This is not like a front loader where you can shove clothes in or do it sitting on a stool. And people complain even that is too much effort hence top loader is preferable.

With a dishwasher, you need to aim things into tight slots one at a time. Same again with unloading. Can't sit down and do it.

It will be tiring to load and unload it

You are getting shafted here man, bending a lot that too twice a day because undersized dishwasher. The worst of both worlds.

A good lower back workout for sure. If you can squat a 100 then you sure can dead lift the same too.

lockhrt999 · Aug 8, 2022

blr_p said:
It looks really nice but I'm asking myself why you could not customise it to fit a full-size machine. Wasn't that possible? The countertop would be higher so the cupboards would have to be smaller.

Why does Indian anything not allow that? Modular comes in one size onlee !!

The countertop from the render already exists and is already at the correct height. So, it won't be altered.

Indians make rotis and that's an intensive process. Indian women prefer to use bodyweight to press rotis rather than using triceps.

This is the correct height of the countertop for Indian scenario. This height makes roti making or any heavy duty cooking effortless.

This is the height of the countertop in the west. It's not ideal for roti making.

Full size DW have standard height of 85cm because they are meant to be kept under the western countertops and next to the sink like so,

Indian countertops can't accommodate 85cm tall machine under them.

I don't like the idea of buying full size DW (meant for keeping under western countertops) and keeping it 15 feets away from the sink. I would rather not have it.

blr_p said:
A lot of bending there if you keep it where the arrow is. It's supposed to be tabletop ie. no bending but you are using it under the table

No problem squatting 100 times a day. My parents will live longer and healthy life. They are active people and I meant to keep it that way.

Secondly, the wire basket can be loaded without any bending or squatting, as it's removable.

Also, you are presuming that people buying Full size DW don't need to bend. I think they still need to bend to operate the DW.

Channu · Aug 8, 2022

lockhrt999 said:
The countertop from the render already exists and is already at the correct height. So, it won't be altered.

Indians make rotis and that's an intensive process. Indian women prefer to use bodyweight to press rotis rather than using triceps.

This is the correct height of the countertop for Indian scenario. This height makes roti making or any heavy duty cooking effortless.
View attachment 142279

This is the height of the countertop in the west. It's not ideal for roti making.
View attachment 142289

Full size DW have standard height of 85cm because they are meant to be kept under the western countertops and next to the sink like so,
View attachment 142292

Indian countertops can't accommodate 85cm tall machine under them.

I don't like the idea of buying full size DW (meant for keeping under western countertops) and keeping it 15 feets away from the sink. I would rather not have it.

No problem squatting 100 times a day. My parents will live longer and healthy life. They are active people and I meant to keep it that way.

Secondly, the wire basket can be loaded without any bending or squatting, as it's removable.

Also, you are presuming that people buying Full size DW don't need to bend. I think they still need to bend to operate the DW.

Entire post makes sense. I bought in a DW few months back for Mom & dad and got it placed just outside the kitchen temporarily since they will be moving to another location where the flat is under construction. Now, we went to check on the furnishing status of the place, I was surprised that there was no way that the DW can be put in the kitchen due to counter height. When I asked the current counter to be demolished & rebuilt to accommodate the washer, I was told about the roti making limitation :-/
I was literally speechless, will have to rework something to either fit it inside kitchen as I want it to be done or once again, carry the utensils away from the sink to place them in washer. It may not sound like a big deal but it is!

tech.addict · Aug 8, 2022

The DW is absolutely very harmful for the back in long term. My wife is already suffering. I'm planning to build a slab of about 2 feet height to just accommodate the DW in my newly built kitchen.

blr_p · Aug 9, 2022

lockhrt999 said:
The countertop from the render already exists and is already at the correct height. So, it won't be altered. I don't like the idea of buying full size DW (meant for keeping under western countertops) and keeping it 15 feets away from the sink. I would rather not have it.

That limits options

lockhrt999 said:
Indians make rotis and that's an intensive process. Indian women prefer to use bodyweight to press rotis rather than using triceps.

This is the correct height of the countertop for Indian scenario. This height makes roti making or any heavy duty cooking effortless.
View attachment 142279

This is the height of the countertop in the west. It's not ideal for roti making.
View attachment 142289

Full size DW have standard height of 85cm because they are meant to be kept under the western countertops and next to the sink like so,
View attachment 142292

Indian countertops can't accommodate 85cm tall machine under them.

Just make a space at the lower height for making rotis then or designate an area with a higher countertop to accommodate a full-size DW and have the best of both worlds?

No need for binaries.

lockhrt999 said:
No problem squatting 100 times a day. My parents will live longer and healthy life. They are active people and I meant to keep it that way.

Secondly, the wire basket can be loaded without any bending or squatting, as it's removable.

If one is squatting it requires another to hand things to them. Yeah, you can make 'em do reps but I think the former is more likely.

I think you should do some acceptance testing. Simulate loading/unloading with the rest of the household.

Fine for you but what about them? Each day, all year round.

Get a couple of boxes, put them on the floor or at a height those trays will be and then get them to do an entire load from the countertop. Then unload. Everyone gets to play. Several times.

If the drawer is removable good, but when loading you will have to align it bending down. Bending, holding a weight and aligning is harder.

Unloading will be easier but you are still lifting a weight bending over. Not what you want to do too often unless you have a strong back. I'd always squat and lift with a straight back than bend and lift.

Ergonomics is a tricky subject with appliances and gadgets. Easier to get right if you dumb it down and prototype.

The only way I got the household to accept a bigger washing machine was to make a cylinder out of cardboard for the three sizes of drums and get people to fill it with laundry. Then all understood what size was best for the price.

Oh yeah, price. That's another screwdriver in the works.

lockhrt999 said:
Also, you are presuming that people buying Full size DW don't need to bend. I think they still need to bend to operate the DW.

It's slightly higher so you don't notice it much. Also if you load it throughout the day you only put small amounts in. On occasion, you will have to load it completely so that takes longer. But with a smaller machine, you will be doing that more often.

lockhrt999 · Aug 9, 2022

blr_p said:
Just make a space at the lower height for making rotis then or designate an area with a higher countertop to accommodate a full-size DW and have the best of both worlds?

That's going to look cheap. The whole kitchen has been planned and it took me almost a year. That render is from last december. There's no space near the sink that can accomodate full size DW. After a lot thinking and tinkering with design, I have come to conclusion that I can either buy 8 place DW or forget about it.

blr_p said:
It's slightly higher so you don't notice it much. Also if you load it throughout the day you only put small amounts in. On occasion, you will have to load it completely so that takes longer. But with a smaller machine, you will be doing that more often.

The 8 place I'll be using will also be higher like full size dishwashers. It won't be sitting on the ground, there's a 10cm base below the modular kitchen.

8 place is not as small as you think it is. I have watched dozens of videos of 8 place machines and our dish load is smaller than what people load 8 place DW with.

blr_p said:
Oh yeah, price. That's another screwdriver in the works.

Many full size DW cost just as much as 8 place DW.

lockhrt999 · Aug 11, 2022

Has anyone ever tried Voltas product before? How good is the ground presence?

I'm looking online and it's not good. Tata has dozens of websites for voltas products which point to broken links. Tata's online presence is on par with Govt. Is it that bad offline?
Secondly, voltas beko 8 place dishwashers are either out of stock at many places or priced higher. Are they bringing replacement model or just plainly abandoning this segment?

lockhrt999 · Aug 13, 2022

@blr_p: went out to look for some dishwashers. The lower baskets on 8 place and 14 place have almost the same height/volume to accommodate dishes. All the difference is with the upper basket. 14 place upper basket has got same volume/height like the lower basket.

blr_p · Aug 26, 2022

Something to think about

See this YT community post

lockhrt999 · Aug 28, 2022

@blr_p I have got a good news. You're going to be happy.

Got naughty. It went unplanned. Left no stone unturned. And now expecting full size delivery next month.

skoka123 · Aug 29, 2022

blr_p said:
Something to think about

View attachment 144185

See this YT community post

Why not use only 1/4 of the dishwasher detergent after pre rinsing?

jammy420 · Aug 30, 2022

sriharsha_m said:
I was in search of dishwasher reviews for the past couple of years, specially from Indian users.
I couldn't find much except for a review or two on YouTube, but they were not in detail for me to take the plunge.

Finally I bit the bullet and bought a Bosch SMS60L12IN from Amazon for 31.5k.

I'd summarize few points which might be useful for prospective buyers.
This review applies to all dishwashers in general since all the models from different brands sold in India are more or less with similar specs.

Which Brand?

AFAIK Bosch, IFB, Siemens, LG & Samsung sell dishwashers in India.

Bosch has only one model in two colors with different model numbers.
People quoted that the silver model is an upgraded one with water saving features blah blah blah.
But I verified the specs and both are in fact color variants of same model.

Siemens has a model or two IIRC, but they are priced higher and share 90% of the components with Bosch. Both are sold and serviced by same channels too.

IFB has 5-6 models, out of which all the models have 12 place holders except the top of the line Neptune SX1, which has 15 place holders. This particular model has extra pullout basket for small cutlery, which is of practical use. I later found out how significant this feature is (More on this later).

LG and Samsung sell one model each, which are priced higher and I doubt their after sales service w.r.t dishwashers.

I found build quality to be better in Bosch.

In terms of service I heard/found Bosch to be better, can't comment on the spares availability/cost of spares at this moment. There are many horror stories about IFB service, so I stayed out of this brand.

Purchase and Installation

For months, I pestered almost all major stores for a demo and no one gave a positive reply. Croma, Bajaj electronics have a Bosch demo dishwasher with transparent window to see how the dishwasher works etc, but they never showed interest in showing a demo as well.

All of them were offering a discount of 1-2 k, so I chose Amazon as I was getting it for almost 8k discount on MRP. These store guys were selling very old stocks, but the one I ordered from Amazon was imported in Dec 2016. I think all Bosch dishwashers sold in India are made in Turkey.

I got a installation request acknowledgement from Bosch on the very next day I ordered on Amazon. They had been following up for installation even before it was delivered from Amazon and installation was done within hours of delivery. Satisfied with the overall purchase and installation experience.

There is nothing complicated about installation, just connecting the inlet hose and proper drainage for drain pipe. The purpose of waiting for installation is more or less to verify damage and to avail warranty.

Also ours is a free standing unit, if you want to integrate this into kitchen, you might need to get some additional work done to mount the machine into place.

What are these three cleaning agents?

A dishwasher needs a combination of three cleaning agents. Using all three( Salt+Detergent+Rinse Aid ) is the key to perfectly washed dishes. You can use any brand of dishwasher cleaning agents, as long as they are dishwasher compatible.

Bosch recommends "Finish" products, which are imported and cost a bomb when compared to other brands. IFB sells their own brand of cleaning agents.

We personally use & recommend Fortune Products >> http://fortunedishwashing.com/
They are cheaper compared to imported brands.
I compared the wash quality with Finish and I couldn't find any difference.
Many Bosch/IFB users gave similar feedback about Fortune products.
They are not easily available in super markets, but you can order from their website or their Amazon store.

What are these three cleaning agents anyway?

Salt - Don't confuse this for normal table salt.
This is special salt, used to convert hard water into soft water which prevents hard water stains(white powdery stains) on the dishes. It is mandatory if your water hardness is medium to high. Depending on your dishwasher model, you can adjust the salt dispensing levels.

You don't need to refill salt for every wash, you need to refill once in a month or two based on usage.In our case, we use dishwasher everyday and we need to refill it once a month with 1KG of salt. Cost of refill is around Rs. 100 per KG.

http://fortunedishwashing.com/product/fortune-dishwasher-salt/

Detergent - As the name suggests, these are detergents specially made for dishwashers.
You need to fill the detergent for every wash, just like a washing machine.

http://fortunedishwashing.com/product/fortune-dishwasher-detergent-1-kg-pack/

Rinse Aid - It is a special liquid used to reduce the surface tension of water, so that water won't stick on the dishes during rinsing. This actually makes a lot of difference to the final wash quality. If you don't use it, then the dishes would have water droplet stains and white stains.

You might have to refill rinse aid every 10 washes on average. So a 500ml Rinse Aid should be sufficient for a month or two, if you use the dishwasher daily.

http://fortunedishwashing.com/product/fortune-rinse-aid/

You can buy a combo pack of all three, which is more in tune with the usage cycle.
http://fortunedishwashing.com/produ...tarter-combo-pack-free-descaler-worth-rs-150/

All in one Tablets - If you are lazy and don't want to buy all three of them and refill every time. These all in one tablets come with a combo of Detergent/Salt & Rinse aid all in a single tablet. You will need to use one tablet per wash.

Manual says that if your water hardness is medium to high, then you would still need to use salt in addition to these tablets. I've tried to use tablet alone and the results weren't great. Ended up using the additional salt as well. So I won't recommend tablets, plus these are costly compared to the purchasing the individual detergents.

For example, this costs almost 1200 for 34 tablets >> http://www.amazon.in/Finish-All-Max-Powerball-Tablets/dp/B01ET6E9XE?tag=googinhydr18418-21

Stacking the dishes and Usage

You need to dump all left over food particles from the utensils. Soaking is not necessary for normal utensils. Wok's on which deep fries are done, would wash well with soaking.

Plates go into plate holders and large dishes go on bottom rack.
Small plates, cups, small utensils go into the top rack. There is a free standing basket for cutlery into which you place all the ladles, forks & spoons. But using this basket is tricky, as it can be placed only on bottom basket and is difficult to fit in if the bottom layer is full. This is where extra basket in IFB Neptune SX1 comes handy. Otherwise you are forced to use the assorted holder in the top rack for placing spoons and forks.

All dishes should be facing downwards on the racks and should not be stacked on top of other.
Stacking the dishes is tricky and time taking for the first few runs till you get the hang of it.

Once you are done stacking, check for the refill indicators. Only for the first use you need to fill the salt and rinse aid. Post that you need to fill them only if the respective refill indicator is lit.
As I had mentioned earlier, refill cycle is roughly once a month for salt and once every 10 - 15 washes for Rinse Aid (100-150ml per refill).

Now comes the wash options, depending on the model there will be Auto, Eco and Intense modes.
We normally use Eco and Auto modes and are yet to use Intense kadai mode.
Since water temperature goes to around 70 degrees, we never risked using that mode owing to plastic boxes in the wash.

Auto/Eco modes usually take 1.5 hrs for the cycle to finish.

Unlike a washing machine, there is no lock for the door, no sound indicators for the wash completion.
You can open the door in the middle of wash, it automatically pauses and resumes once the door is shut. But avoid opening the door as the vapor that spews out is very hot.

Once the wash cycle is done, machine turns itself off without any buzzer.

Wash Quality

Aluminium, Wood and plastics which are not dishwasher compatible should not be used in dishwasher according to manual. I tried aluminium dishes, they got cleaned properly, but are slightly discolored and have white stains even after rinse aid is used. So I won't recommend using aluminium utensils.
I've used wooden spatula's and wash is fine.

Silverware, steel, glass and food grade plastics are washed perfectly. Shine on the utensils and the squeaky noise from the clean dishes is so satisfying.

Specially if you are using Tupperware boxes for carrying lunch, the difference in wash quality is reason enough for you to buy a dishwasher. Even those sticky oil stains are washed perfectly, leaving the boxes squeaky clean. When we used to wash the dishes manually, getting the oil stains from plastic boxes is a nightmare and oil stains never used to go off.

Power Consumption

This particular model is rated at 1.5KW, but I guess that rating is only for the heating element.
Never calculated the actual usage, but should be on par with any washing machine if not less.
There is no significant spike in electricity bill, so I never bothered to check the power usage in detail.

I will add a few pictures later today, of the dishwasher and utensils before/after wash.

My parents were reluctant to get rid of the maid and get a dishwasher instead. They were apprehensive about the performance earlier, but after looking at the wash quality, even they are on the scout for a dishwasher. Since I know the practical advantages of an extra rack, I'm pushing for IFB Neptune SX1 and will update this review accordingly if we end up buying that.

This is how dishwasher was delivered by Amazon. Luckily no damages.

A few pics from yesterday's wash cycle.

Notice that refill rinse aid indicator is lit. It's been almost 3 weeks since last refill.

After refill, with the indicator off.

After the wash cycle.
Those plastic flap like things you see at the bottom of the pic is where you add the detergent and the rinse aid.

Bottom rack, where plates and large utensils usually go.

Top rack. Since the bottom rack is full and we couldn't fit the small cutlery basket, We had to improvise and use the Etagere for small cutlery.

Notice how the stainless steel utensils are shiny. If you don't use rinse aid, there will be a cloudy layer of water droplet marks over them.

I'll do a set of before/after wash pics of dishes, once I get some time over the weekend.

Impressed with your review.

Have you bought your vaccum robot .. interested to find a similar detailed review

Channu · Aug 30, 2022

lockhrt999 said:
@blr_p I have got a good news. You're going to be happy.

Got naughty. It went unplanned. Left no stone unturned. And now expecting full size delivery next month.

View attachment 144350

How you gonna fit it in ?

I'll be meeting the masons at my place tomorrow(which is currently under construction) for finalizing the last bits of fittings.
I think I'm gonna get the kitchen slab demolished at one end where sink is planned to make place for DW since it totally defeats the purpose of convenience if DW is outside the kitchen :-/

sriharsha_m · Aug 30, 2022

jammy420 said:
Impressed with your review.

Have you bought your vaccum robot .. interested to find a similar detailed review

Yes, we've been using MI Robot vacuum cleaner for over 2 years now, and so have my parents.
They are quite effective. Prior to this Dyson V11 was our daily driver, but the duties are taken over by robot vaccum now.

Although MI one does mopping as well, it's a hinderance to schedule, as you need to switch to mopping tank and mopping pads and you can't leave it on while charging.
So, we use it as a dry vacuum alone on schedules and empty the bin every other day or a couple more days later.

lockhrt999 · Aug 30, 2022

Channu said:
How you gonna fit it in ?

Alright here's the story,

We didn't have plans to demolish the countertop initially but because of some other factors, we had to get rid of it. So as we are remodelling our countertop too, I made a few changes in design.

Original plan with old countertop:

Old countertop had height of 80cm. So upper surface of the countertop was 80 cm from the floor.
Out of those 80, 10cm is the base that goes below the modular trolleys.
Also the countertop stone (granite + kadappa) is 10cm.
As you can see the usable space was 60cm only in the old design.
Full size dishwashers have 85 cm. So there's a clear deficit of the 25cm.

Now,
I got permission from high command to raise the height of the new countertop from 80 to 85. That would mean using thinner roti rolling board. And using thick sleepers while cooking.
The deficit now is 20 = 25 - 5

No 10cm base below the dishwasher. Dishwasher will now sit directly on the floor.
The deficit now is 10 = 20 - 10

No kadappa on top of dishwasher. Granite will be supported by a 10mm thick steel plate. So the actual countertop slab above dishwasher will only be 3cm thick. I save 7cm.
The deficit now is 3 = 10 - 7

Here's the kicker though. On many dishwashers, one can remove the top cover. The cover is actually empty and easily removable. The cover is 3cm thick.

The deficit now is 0 = 3 - 3

Take off the top cover of your dishwasher and you'll get more headroom literally.

This explains what I mean,

I have moved sink to the right. New sink has a drainboard. And the full size dishwasher is under it without the top cover. You can fit the dishwasher like so.

However, I have scrapped this design too. I have now moved the sink more to the right and the dishwasher will be in the shelf. This will give you idea: (the design is still unfinished)

As you can see, the dishwasher has top cover on it. And it's at the same height of that countertop of 85cm.

blr_p · Aug 31, 2022

lockhrt999 said:
Indian countertops can't accommodate 85cm tall machine under them.

Funny how a little application of mind and a refusal to conform makes all things possible

lockhrt999 · Aug 31, 2022

blr_p said:
Funny how a little application of mind and a refusal to conform makes all things possible

It's possible because we had to remove the old countertop. There were other major problems in keeping the old countertop.

And why nobody told me one can take head off the dishwasher? I think most people don't know it. So it's not 85cm tall.

blr_p · Aug 31, 2022

lockhrt999 said:
It's possible because we had to remove the old countertop. There were other major problems in keeping the old countertop.

How do you make these renders? is there some software

lockhrt999 said:
And why nobody told me one can take head off the dishwasher? I think most people don't know it. So it's not 85cm tall.

What do you mean?

If you take the lid off then aren't you going to introduce steam inside the counter? That will rot whatever material they are made of.

lockhrt999 · Aug 31, 2022

blr_p said:
How do you make these renders? is there some software

Autodesk Maya

blr_p said:
What do you mean?

If you take the lid off then aren't you going to introduce steam inside the counter? That will rot whatever material they are made of.

The top cover of the dishwashers is removable and is not necessary. It doesn't house anything and removing it doesn't affect any functionality.

blr_p · Aug 31, 2022

lockhrt999 said:
And why nobody told me one can take head off the dishwasher? I think most people don't know it. So it's not 85cm tall.

3/4 inch less so 83.1 cm

Looks good. Don't see any leakage happening.

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