Review Bosch SMS60L12IN Dishwasher Review

I was in search of dishwasher reviews for the past couple of years, specially from Indian users.
I couldn't find much except for a review or two on YouTube, but they were not in detail for me to take the plunge.

Finally I bit the bullet and bought a Bosch SMS60L12IN from Amazon for 31.5k.

I'd summarize few points which might be useful for prospective buyers.
This review applies to all dishwashers in general since all the models from different brands sold in India are more or less with similar specs.

Which Brand?

• AFAIK Bosch, IFB, Siemens, LG & Samsung sell dishwashers in India.
  
  
• Bosch has only one model in two colors with different model numbers.
  People quoted that the silver model is an upgraded one with water saving features blah blah blah.
  But I verified the specs and both are in fact color variants of same model.
  
  Siemens has a model or two IIRC, but they are priced higher and share 90% of the components with Bosch. Both are sold and serviced by same channels too.
  
  
• IFB has 5-6 models, out of which all the models have 12 place holders except the top of the line Neptune SX1, which has 15 place holders. This particular model has extra pullout basket for small cutlery, which is of practical use. I later found out how significant this feature is (More on this later).
  
  
• LG and Samsung sell one model each, which are priced higher and I doubt their after sales service w.r.t dishwashers.
  
  
• I found build quality to be better in Bosch.
  
  
• In terms of service I heard/found Bosch to be better, can't comment on the spares availability/cost of spares at this moment. There are many horror stories about IFB service, so I stayed out of this brand.

Purchase and Installation

• For months, I pestered almost all major stores for a demo and no one gave a positive reply. Croma, Bajaj electronics have a Bosch demo dishwasher with transparent window to see how the dishwasher works etc, but they never showed interest in showing a demo as well.
  
  
• All of them were offering a discount of 1-2 k, so I chose Amazon as I was getting it for almost 8k discount on MRP. These store guys were selling very old stocks, but the one I ordered from Amazon was imported in Dec 2016. I think all Bosch dishwashers sold in India are made in Turkey.
  
  
• I got a installation request acknowledgement from Bosch on the very next day I ordered on Amazon. They had been following up for installation even before it was delivered from Amazon and installation was done within hours of delivery. Satisfied with the overall purchase and installation experience.
  
  
• There is nothing complicated about installation, just connecting the inlet hose and proper drainage for drain pipe. The purpose of waiting for installation is more or less to verify damage and to avail warranty.
  
  
• Also ours is a free standing unit, if you want to integrate this into kitchen, you might need to get some additional work done to mount the machine into place.

What are these three cleaning agents?

• A dishwasher needs a combination of three cleaning agents. Using all three( Salt+Detergent+Rinse Aid ) is the key to perfectly washed dishes. You can use any brand of dishwasher cleaning agents, as long as they are dishwasher compatible.
  
  Bosch recommends "Finish" products, which are imported and cost a bomb when compared to other brands. IFB sells their own brand of cleaning agents.
  
  We personally use & recommend Fortune Products >> http://fortunedishwashing.com/
  They are cheaper compared to imported brands.
  I compared the wash quality with Finish and I couldn't find any difference.
  Many Bosch/IFB users gave similar feedback about Fortune products.
  They are not easily available in super markets, but you can order from their website or their Amazon store.
  
  
• What are these three cleaning agents anyway?
  • Salt - Don't confuse this for normal table salt.
    This is special salt, used to convert hard water into soft water which prevents hard water stains(white powdery stains) on the dishes. It is mandatory if your water hardness is medium to high. Depending on your dishwasher model, you can adjust the salt dispensing levels.
    
    You don't need to refill salt for every wash, you need to refill once in a month or two based on usage.In our case, we use dishwasher everyday and we need to refill it once a month with 1KG of salt. Cost of refill is around Rs. 100 per KG.
    
    http://fortunedishwashing.com/product/fortune-dishwasher-salt/
    
    
  • Detergent - As the name suggests, these are detergents specially made for dishwashers.
    You need to fill the detergent for every wash, just like a washing machine.
    
    http://fortunedishwashing.com/product/fortune-dishwasher-detergent-1-kg-pack/
    
    
  • Rinse Aid - It is a special liquid used to reduce the surface tension of water, so that water won't stick on the dishes during rinsing. This actually makes a lot of difference to the final wash quality. If you don't use it, then the dishes would have water droplet stains and white stains.
    
    You might have to refill rinse aid every 10 washes on average. So a 500ml Rinse Aid should be sufficient for a month or two, if you use the dishwasher daily.
    
    http://fortunedishwashing.com/product/fortune-rinse-aid/
    
    You can buy a combo pack of all three, which is more in tune with the usage cycle.
    http://fortunedishwashing.com/produ...tarter-combo-pack-free-descaler-worth-rs-150/
    
    
  • All in one Tablets - If you are lazy and don't want to buy all three of them and refill every time. These all in one tablets come with a combo of Detergent/Salt & Rinse aid all in a single tablet. You will need to use one tablet per wash.
    
    Manual says that if your water hardness is medium to high, then you would still need to use salt in addition to these tablets. I've tried to use tablet alone and the results weren't great. Ended up using the additional salt as well. So I won't recommend tablets, plus these are costly compared to the purchasing the individual detergents.
    
    For example, this costs almost 1200 for 34 tablets >> http://www.amazon.in/Finish-All-Max-Powerball-Tablets/dp/B01ET6E9XE?tag=googinhydr18418-21

Stacking the dishes and Usage

• You need to dump all left over food particles from the utensils. Soaking is not necessary for normal utensils. Wok's on which deep fries are done, would wash well with soaking.
  
  
• Plates go into plate holders and large dishes go on bottom rack.
  Small plates, cups, small utensils go into the top rack. There is a free standing basket for cutlery into which you place all the ladles, forks & spoons. But using this basket is tricky, as it can be placed only on bottom basket and is difficult to fit in if the bottom layer is full. This is where extra basket in IFB Neptune SX1 comes handy. Otherwise you are forced to use the assorted holder in the top rack for placing spoons and forks.
  
  
• All dishes should be facing downwards on the racks and should not be stacked on top of other.
  Stacking the dishes is tricky and time taking for the first few runs till you get the hang of it.
  
  
• Once you are done stacking, check for the refill indicators. Only for the first use you need to fill the salt and rinse aid. Post that you need to fill them only if the respective refill indicator is lit.
  As I had mentioned earlier, refill cycle is roughly once a month for salt and once every 10 - 15 washes for Rinse Aid (100-150ml per refill).
  
  
• Now comes the wash options, depending on the model there will be Auto, Eco and Intense modes.
  We normally use Eco and Auto modes and are yet to use Intense kadai mode.
  Since water temperature goes to around 70 degrees, we never risked using that mode owing to plastic boxes in the wash.
  
  Auto/Eco modes usually take 1.5 hrs for the cycle to finish.
  
  Unlike a washing machine, there is no lock for the door, no sound indicators for the wash completion.
  You can open the door in the middle of wash, it automatically pauses and resumes once the door is shut. But avoid opening the door as the vapor that spews out is very hot.
  
  Once the wash cycle is done, machine turns itself off without any buzzer.

Wash Quality

• Aluminium, Wood and plastics which are not dishwasher compatible should not be used in dishwasher according to manual. I tried aluminium dishes, they got cleaned properly, but are slightly discolored and have white stains even after rinse aid is used. So I won't recommend using aluminium utensils.
  I've used wooden spatula's and wash is fine.
  
  Silverware, steel, glass and food grade plastics are washed perfectly. Shine on the utensils and the squeaky noise from the clean dishes is so satisfying.
  
  
• Specially if you are using Tupperware boxes for carrying lunch, the difference in wash quality is reason enough for you to buy a dishwasher. Even those sticky oil stains are washed perfectly, leaving the boxes squeaky clean. When we used to wash the dishes manually, getting the oil stains from plastic boxes is a nightmare and oil stains never used to go off.

Power Consumption

• This particular model is rated at 1.5KW, but I guess that rating is only for the heating element.
  Never calculated the actual usage, but should be on par with any washing machine if not less.
  There is no significant spike in electricity bill, so I never bothered to check the power usage in detail.

I will add a few pictures later today, of the dishwasher and utensils before/after wash.

My parents were reluctant to get rid of the maid and get a dishwasher instead. They were apprehensive about the performance earlier, but after looking at the wash quality, even they are on the scout for a dishwasher. Since I know the practical advantages of an extra rack, I'm pushing for IFB Neptune SX1 and will update this review accordingly if we end up buying that.


This is how dishwasher was delivered by Amazon. Luckily no damages.

A few pics from yesterday's wash cycle.

Notice that refill rinse aid indicator is lit. It's been almost 3 weeks since last refill.

After refill, with the indicator off.

After the wash cycle.
Those plastic flap like things you see at the bottom of the pic is where you add the detergent and the rinse aid.

Bottom rack, where plates and large utensils usually go.

Top rack. Since the bottom rack is full and we couldn't fit the small cutlery basket, We had to improvise and use the Etagere for small cutlery.

Notice how the stainless steel utensils are shiny. If you don't use rinse aid, there will be a cloudy layer of water droplet marks over them.

I'll do a set of before/after wash pics of dishes, once I get some time over the weekend.

 

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Had to ring manufacturer customer care for some reason. (I'll post about it later). But as it turns out there's no serial number on the machine or the box or the invoice. Even the customer care is dumbstruck. How could Midea ship an entire machine without a serial number?

It means no warranty can be claimed. Check the warranty terms for your machine. IFB specifically states in their warranty that

This warranty is not valid in case of the following events:........If the machine serial number on the appliance is defaced, missing or altered.

 

[lockhrt999]

It means no warranty can be claimed. Check the warranty terms for your machine. IFB specifically states in their warranty that

I'll sue them if they deny the warranty. It's their problem not mine.

 

[elan]

Also, I have been meaning to post my usage stats.

I am currently redoing my kitchen and have reserved space for dishwasher with tap and drain arrangement already available.
I have inspected LG and Bosch dishwasher (Vijay sales and Croma Navi Mumbai stores) but couldn't find Midea in any of the store yet. Vijay sales guys are ready to match the amazon price of INR 43000 for Bosch 13 place setting model and LG 14 place setting model is costing me around 48000 with bank offer from Croma store. But i am more tempted to go for Midea Torrino from Flipkart for INR 23000.
While I generally do take good care of home appliances and none of them have failed me so far, would you still recommend the Midea dishwasher over others based on your experience so far with your unit?

 

[lockhrt999]

would you still recommend the Midea dishwasher over others based on your experience so far with your unit?

Mine is still going strong. None troubles after 1.5 years. It's been in heavy use daily. Midea isn't a new dude in the dishwasher segment. Samsung, IFB, Godrej and other 10 brands you see on Amazon white label Midea and sell as their own. Except for program durations and front look, everything else is identical with them, even the manuals.

 

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Vijay sales guys are ready to match the amazon price of INR 43000 for Bosch 13 place setting model and LG 14 place setting model is costing me around 48000 with bank offer from Croma store. But i am more tempted to go for Midea Torrino from Flipkart for INR 23000.

Why go for a generic when you can get branded ie. better for more?

I don't have a dishwasher but the price difference is enough to make me prefer either the bosch or ideally the LG

The higher prices I would put down to them being imported and not made in India. But it won't be by much. My LG front loader was the last to come from China. The year after they made them here with some features minused and the price difference was negligible. So that is why the higher price is getting you something better.

Still less than the price of a phone for an appliance that will last ten or more years? Think about it.

While I generally do take good care of home appliances and none of them have failed me so far, would you still recommend the Midea dishwasher over others based on your experience so far with your unit?

He hasn't had anything else to compare with. Initially he wanted to get a table top dishwasher and after some coaxing that this was a ridiculous choice he decided a full size was better. But the price was too high and Midea it was.

Between dishwasher or not that was it <shrug>

 

[tech.addict]

One of important factor to choose is after sales service.

Bosch/Siemens is probably the largest player in India. I live in a Metro city and using a Bosch one since last 6 year. I faced two major issues in this period. One was luckily during the warranty period. The whole Bosch service team was clueless about what is faulty. They changed about 80% of the components one by one and still can not resolve the issue. They even called someone from Mumbai. All this took about 1.5 month and I suffered. I escalated several time during the period.

Lastly after some heated exchange with regional head I got my product exchanged with a new one. Even that took 15 days. Luckily the machine was in warranty (during the initial purchase period of 2 years but at the end of it).

This year I had to get the circulation pump cum heater changed (in a 4 yr old machine that is maintained as per schedule. Also, water in my area is not at all hard (130 ppm TDS). It costed around 6K and 7 days of time.

Another problem occurred due to a very small crack on the back of the plastic part of the machine. As a result water was getting into the base of the machine and machine was throwing up a error code. Technicians visited atleast 5 times and tried lots of thing but couldn't resolve the issue. There is only one person in Kolkata I know who is the master engineer. I asked service center to assign him personally. He came, detected the crack (a barely 1 inch fine crack) sealed it with m-seal and voila the machine is running fine.

So before buying any brand keep the ASS in mind, specially those brands who doesn't have large sales volume as spare parts availability may be an issue.

 

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This year I had to get the circulation pump cum heater changed (in a 4 yr old machine that is maintained as per schedule. Also, water in my area is not at all hard (130 ppm TDS). It costed around 6K and 7 days of time.

Was trying to figure out why this happened and it's due to debris

Leaving too much food on plates
Nobody is saying you need to hand-wash your dishes before you put them in the washer, but too much food left on your plates and silverware can clog the filter or damage the drain pump. Also, clumps of food can resettle on dishes after the cycle, which sort of defeats the purpose.

As to why the heater element also required changing is a mystery especially if you water was not hard. The heater would have showed no sign of scaling when it was removed. One sign that the heater is gone is it will trip the circuit breaker or fuse when it comes on in the cycle.

Another problem occurred due to a very small crack on the back of the plastic part of the machine. As a result water was getting into the base of the machine and machine was throwing up a error code. Technicians visited atleast 5 times and tried lots of thing but couldn't resolve the issue. There is only one person in Kolkata I know who is the master engineer. I asked service center to assign him personally. He came, detected the crack (a barely 1 inch fine crack) sealed it with m-seal and voila the machine is running fine.

My guess is some utensil or other kitchen implement might have stuck out a little bit too much and when closing the plastic was damaged.

 

[tech.addict]

Was trying to figure out why this happened and it's due to debris

As to why the heater element also required changing is a mystery especially if you water was not hard. One sign that the heater is gone is it will trip the circuit breaker or fuse when it comes on in the cycle.

Nope. Not due to debris. Actually my wife rinses dishes too much before putting in DW and I regularly remind her not to do that and leave it to DW to do its job.
The Bosch design is stupid, the circulation pump and heater is a combined unit (sealed). So.......

 

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Nope. Not due to debris. Actually my wife rinses dishes too much before putting in DW and I regularly remind her not to do that and leave it to DW to do its job.
The Bosch design is stupid, the circulation pump and heater is a combined unit (sealed). So.......

OK, that explains the heater needing to be changed but not why the circulation pump packed up in as little as four years which I find a bit short.

Typically these pumps fail if some obstruction prevents rotor movement and then their motors burn out. So in a front loader some tiny item makes it's way to the drain pump and breaks it.

It would be good if you have the failed pump and disassembled it. Then you would find the culprit. Maybe too late now.

It could be as simple as a small fish bone. You're a bong so fish is on the diet and considered veg

 

[elan]

Why go for a generic when you can get branded ie. better for more?

The higher prices I would put down to them being imported and not made in India. But it won't be by much.

Both LG and Bosch are costing me twice as much as Midea. what i am not able to figure out is whether this is only due to the import duty and stuff and/or they are using better material, parts & spares than Midea. While in other's (mobile or TV) there are parameter to determine which is superior but how do we differentiate them in dishwasher.

One of important factor to choose is after sales service.

If i am not convinced, i think this will be the only sole reason for me to go or LG or Bosch.

 

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Both LG and Bosch are costing me twice as much as Midea. what i am not able to figure out is whether this is only due to the import duty and stuff and/or they are using better material, parts & spares than Midea. While in other's (mobile or TV) there are parameter to determine which is superior but how do we differentiate them in dishwasher.

Only the LG is twice as much. The trouble with dishwashers is the value add is inside the machine and out of sight.

Why not ask in the shops and post their answers?

One ready reason has been posted by @tech.addict

Support network does not come for free. If it's true that other brands are white badging then you have a network in place already. But spares can be an open question. Past five years especially with Chinese firms. A Sammy rebrand might be a better option in that case.

The first thing I would look at is ergonomics. Have you seen these machines in person. Have you or your household considered what it entails to load and unload this or that machine on an almost daily basis. Study that first.

Price should be like 3rd or 4th in the priority list.

 

[lockhrt999]

I don't have a dishwasher but the price difference is enough to make me prefer either the bosch or ideally the LG

The price difference is there because it has been inflated. Bosch was available for much less before lockdown. They raised prices in covid and people now think it's a premium brand.

But the price was too high and Midea it was.

Rather, why get a duplicate or white labeled product from Samsung, IFB if the actual original manufacturer offered better programs and better warranty.

Anyway, everyone is free to choose what they like.

 

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The price difference is there because it has been inflated. Bosch was available for much less before lockdown. They raised prices in covid and people now think it's a premium brand.

Takes a lot to get people to pay more for something in this country. So raising prices is dicey unless you know the market can bear it.

The trouble with dishwashers is the value add is out of sight. You can have two side by side and they look almost identical and do the same job.

But one costs more than the other maybe twice more and the reason is in how it does the job.

Rather, why get a duplicate or white labeled product from Samsung, IFB if the actual original manufacturer offered better programs and better warranty.

Yes and no.

Yes because you left out Bosch & LG in your list.

The No part is about availability of spares for a Chinese brand that is new in the market. I'm sure you will let us know how that goes in time.

Service I don't think will be problem but parts sometimes have to be replaced. Chinese branded are OK for the price but there will be ten copies for the parts the OEM used.

 

[rockstah]

Sorry for OT but I didn't want to make a separate thread. Is there any decent dishwashers under 30k? How good are the ones from voltas, godrej, Whirlpool?
Also suggest which model to go for from Bosch just in case as I'll be purchasing tomorrow. Thanks in advance.

 

[adder]

I forgot to update this thread, I had bought a LG dishwasher in 2020. After around 14 to 15 months the circulation pump started to make noise, whining noise. During the time I got covid the machine was running at intensive cycle. Normaly it runs on auto cycle twice a day, i.e 365×7x2

Since it was in warranty for another few months, I decided to let it slide. Just 2 weeks before the warranty was about to get over the circulation pump made a noise equivalent to struggling to spin due to friction. Since I was standing next to the machine, the rpm was bogging down, the pump finally stopped and threw a error code LE.

I raised a ticket online, the service center called the same day and said they will first visit to check whats wrong, I instead told them not to come without a new pump. They agreed and said pump will take 2 to 4 days time to come from LG. But they called the next day and said part is there. My guess is that they did have the pump but no technician available for the day.

So the LG guy came over. I asked him for the pump and told him to keep his tool bag in his scooter itself parked inside the house.

Since I had all the tools, including specialized tools that they lack. I removed all the baskets inside and the top lid and side panels. Turned the machine upside down. I removed the hose clips, took out the old pump and put the new one in. Fixed everything back.

The LG guy was still in shock that he was just a bystander, other then helping me turn the machine upside down. But he was very happy, he was in and out within 40min, including the time spent to run a brief cycle to test for leaks and sound, heating etc. Had he done this by himself, with no one to help him and with his basic tools it would have taken him more then 2 hour.

The pump appears to have a jammed impeller, mostly either the plastic casing or impeller had deformed or even the bearing may have failed.

The fact that it failed in such a short time, doesn't give me confidence. But since the motor has a 10 year warranty, even if it occurs again. They should replace it, albiet I may have to pay visting charges. But I really hope they give the parts like elsewhere in the west for a diy or third party fix. Since in the western countries the part costs less then $180 but labor is $600. So people just ask for the part and fix it themselves or with the help of someone they know.

 

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The pump appears to have a jammed impeller, mostly either the plastic casing or impeller had deformed or even the bearing may have failed.

The fact that it failed in such a short time, doesn't give me confidence.

Agreed it's surprising this happened and can't figure out the cause other than wear & tear.

What maintenance did you do?

Then you aren't the only one as there are posts from others also experiencing similar problems in as long a time. Though the issue posted earlier was the heating element failed but the pump was in perfect order.

But since the motor has a 10 year warranty, even if it occurs again. They should replace it, albiet I may have to pay visting charges. But I really hope they give the parts like elsewhere in the west for a diy or third party fix. Since in the western countries the part costs less then $180 but labor is $600. So people just ask for the part and fix it themselves or with the help of someone they know.

Interesting they warranty the circulation pump for this long then isn't it.

 

[adder]

Agreed it's surprising this happened and can't figure out the cause other than wear & tear.

What maintenance did you do?

Then you aren't the only one as there are posts from others also experiencing similar problems in as long a time. Though the issue posted earlier was the heating element failed but the pump was in perfect order.

Interesting they warranty the circulation pump for this long then isn't it.

Since the part number is just one for the pump which includes the heating coil, pump section which containes the heating coil, volute casing, impeller and the motor. So if any of this goes wrong its part of the motor which is warranted for 10 years.

But most people in India get the HE error where the heating coil fails and that is not covered under the 10 year warranty. I remember seeing a youtube video of Indian lady pressing Intensive, High temp and steam all at once. She was under the impression that the machine shows HE at the end of the cycle. After I commented that it should show only End. She deleted the video.

The video below shows a guy tearing down the pump to bare bones, I was not allowed to take it apart but the guy in video does it even better. Even though I do have a drill press, I wouldn't have gone that far. As it will be next to impossible to get that size bearing seal in India.

The older 2019 era and before Lg diswashers had seperate part number for the motor, pump and heating element.

Few people in the US where able to get LG to ship them the part for free after the basic 2 year warranty was over due to the 10 year warranty on the motor.

After the 10 year warranty, its just not worth spending that much on a new pump. I have about 6 years left.

Will probably look at Bosch Zeolith which can dry even plastic and consumes even less power.

I should point out that in the 180min/3 hour cycle in the LG, for the first 90min it consumes less then 0.35 units. Its only in the final heating rinse cycle that it consumes 0.65 units. Total is 1 unit for complete cycle in Auto and about 1.5 units in intensive cycle.

Using solar water heater is practically useless because the machine during its 3 hour cycle takes the water at various interval during which time the water inside the pipe line becomes cold and even the water within the dishwasher tank will become cold. Yet if I manually flush the cold water in the pipe with a diverter tap to a bucket , so that I get hot water. I do this just before 1hr 27min remaining, when it takes water for the heating rinse cycle which starts at 1 hr 16 min remaining mark. If I do this step every day it saves only 0.2units per cycle. Probably more on a colder day.

 

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But most people in India get the HE error where the heating coil fails and that is not covered under the 10 year warranty.

Heating coil fails because it got scaled up. Incorrect hard water settings.

Using solar water heater is practically useless because the machine during its 3 hour cycle takes the water at various interval during which time the water inside the pipe line becomes cold and even the water within the dishwasher tank will become cold. Yet if I manually flush the cold water in the pipe with a diverter tap to a bucket , so that I get hot water. I do this just before 1hr 27min remaining, when it takes water for the heating rinse cycle which starts at 1 hr 16 min remaining mark. If I do this step every day it saves only 0.2units per cycle. Probably more on a colder day.

It's a bad idea to attach a hot water line to a dishwasher for the following reason

Connecting the dishwasher to a hot supply is extremely likely to shorten the program cycle which will cause the enzyme in the detergent to decompose too early and will result in poor wash results.

Dishwasher Not Cleaning - Leaving Residue On Dishes

Help, advice and spare parts for all appliances, washing machines, dishwashers, fridge, freezers, cookers with free forums for fault diagnostics

www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk

I don't know if you experienced shortened cycles but the enzymes in the dishwash detergents all got killed instantly on exposure to hot water instead of gradual heating that happens with a cold fill.

This explains your weird wash results with various products leaving you with having to buy tablets which are fixed dose and inherently less efficient than seperate powder.

Those who have been using dishwasher for years, I want to compare notes regarding the detergent.
I have been using LG dishwasher from the past 2 months. So far I tried Finish Max in 1, Quantum Max lemon, classic powder. Fortune tablets, Crystale tablets.
The best is obviously quantum max, with worst being crystal and Finish classic powder dead last.
Yet to try IFB powder.

And quantum max is the most expensive too. Tablets work better for you because it's slow release so the enzymes have a somewhat better chance of surving to get some cleaning done before the hot water finishes them off. Still sub optimal though.

I am getting 80C water in summer and they all go to waste, since we use less hot water in summer. So I got a thermostatic valve and set the temperature to 60C but yet to connect to the LG dishwasher which accepts upto 65c hot water connection.

I'd lower the input temperature to 35 degrees.

Now that I think of it, a solar water heater is a mixed blessing for appliances that use enzyme based detergents. Might save on heating costs if higher temperature water is used but the tradeoff is lower quality cleaning as you lose the cleaning ability of enzymes that are pretty much killed off right at the start with above 50 degrees water.

It's like going back to an era where enzymes were not there and the only way to clean was using hot temperature washing. Back then detergents were formulated for high temperature washing. Not these days though.

I should point out that in the 180min/3 hour cycle in the LG, for the first 90min it consumes less then 0.35 units. Its only in the final heating rinse cycle that it consumes 0.65 units. Total is 1 unit for complete cycle in Auto and about 1.5 units in intensive cycle.

If its consuming less at the start is that because water was already hot coming in or not?

The first 90 minutes is the wash cycle.

The pump appears to have a jammed impeller, mostly either the plastic casing or impeller had deformed or even the bearing may have failed.

Making me suspect it got exposed to hot water too quickly. These are all plastic items and have their own characteristics.

If bearing failed that means bearing seal was prematurely breached and something in the water did that. A less likely failure out of the two possibilities.

The fact that it failed in such a short time, doesn't give me confidence.

That is the surprising thing here. It failed too soon making me suspect something about your work flow isn't right.

With the twice a day usage I'd have expected a failure past the five year mark and even upto eight years.

Not within two years.

 

[adder]

Heating coil fails because it got scaled up. Incorrect hard water settings.

True, but people also use the intensive mode 70C water, then they switch on Extra temp option 85C and some even switch on the Steam. All this will shorten the life, since in auto mode the wash cycle is done in 55C, only the last final rinse cycle is done at 70C which lasts far about 20min. Where as the intensive cycle starts and ends with 75c temperature.

It's a bad idea to attach a hot water line to a dishwasher for the following reason

Dishwasher Not Cleaning - Leaving Residue On Dishes

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I don't know if you experienced shortened cycles but the enzymes in the dishwash detergents all got killed instantly on exposure to hot water instead of gradual heating that happens with a cold fill.

There is no change in time remaining display, but when the weather is really cold with really cold water the time shown doesn't change when its heating, like for eg it may stay at 56min remaining even after a full 2 min had elapsed in a regular clock, meaning it takes even longer then the time remaining displayed during cold weather. Its possible that it may speed up time to do the same when it gets hot water.

In auto cycle it first takes water at 3hr 12min remaining mark and starts pre wash with detergent/tablet dispenser door closed , it drains at around 2hr 38min mark, it takes water at 2hr 36min mark and opens the detergent door at 2hr 34min and starts wash cycle, it then takes water at 1hr 44min mark and it drains the water from wash cycle at 1hr 28min mark. It takes water at 1hr 26min mark, in this cycle it doesn't switch on the heating element, it drains at 1hr 16min mark, it again takes water for really short time like less then 5 seconds and then switches on the heating element to start the final rinse cycle, if rinse aid option is choosen it dispenses that during this cycle, it drains water at 52min remaining mark, it takes water again and starts condense drying, at 4min remaining it drains and it drains again after a min and finishes the cycle. TIme said by me plus or minus 1 min give or take.

I only manually allow the hot water to be taken at 1hr 26min mark,

For the Eco cycle it does a really short pre wash and starts wash cycle much sooner, I have used it may be twice.

This explains your weird wash results with various products leaving you with having to buy tablets which are fixed dose and inherently less efficient than seperate powder.

And quantum max is the most expensive too. Tablets work better for you because it's slow release so the enzymes have a somewhat better chance of surving to get some cleaning done before the hot water finishes them off. Still sub optimal though.

Powders suck, whether used in hot or cold water. If one only uses porcelain, plastic, plates/cups anything will work since you cannot see any stains. But on a stainless steel plates and vessels every stain is visible including water stains.
For tea stains, the fortune tablets used to do a okay job but they fail to make stainless steel milk vessel spotless. Only the most expensive tablets are able to achieve this 9 out of 10 times.

I'd lower the input temperature to 35 degrees.

Now that I think of it, a solar water heater is a mixed blessing for appliances that use enzyme based detergents. Might save on heating costs if higher temperature water is used but the tradeoff is lower quality cleaning as you lose the cleaning ability of enzymes that are pretty much killed off right at the start with above 50 degrees water.

This machines take about 30 liters from start to finish, of the small fraction of people who use solar hot water, 99.99% of them will only be able to give the machine cold water, since the water in pipe line is cold and it would fill the tiny tank inside the machine with cold water only. Since I have water temperature sensor and have used the diagnostic mode within the DW to check the temperature reported, its impossible to get water above room temperature. Unless if you are like me, who is able to manually flush the pipe lines and make sure the machine gets 60C water. But even then I only allow hot water for the final heating rinse cycle.

If its consuming less at the start is that because water was already hot coming in or not?

The first 90 minutes is the wash cycle.

No, this is with cold water and it consumes less because during the wash cycle the water is heated only to 55C and we don't know it the PID loop is conservative in this cycle vs the final rinse cycle where it draws max power for longer mins because its heating water to 70C.

Making me suspect it got exposed to hot water too quickly. These are all plastic items and have their own characteristics.

If bearing failed that means bearing seal was prematurely breached and something in the water did that. A less likely failure out of the two possibilities.

That is the surprising thing here. It failed too soon making me suspect something about your work flow isn't right.

With the twice a day usage I'd have expected a failure past the five year mark and even upto eight years.

Not within two years.

Nope, it was only getting hot water during final rinse cycle, that too in summers. It never gets hot water from June to Dec, sure in between when it stops raining for a 5 day span in June to aug, the temperature may be hot enough for me to spare some to dishwasher.

When it first started to make noise, prior to that day for the past 7 days it was run on intensive cycle where the water is heated upto 70C even during the wash cycle. Prior to that it may have ran at intensive cycle may be 3 times in its entire operational life till that week.

When I asked my relatives who have dishwashers (granted they are elsewhere in the world), they use dishwasher may be 2 to 3 times a week only, since most don't cook at home or even make coffee or tea at home.
Most other Indian homes may use it just once a day or once in 2 days, so their machines are used less, since most still have a maid. But in my house its used twice a day, since the maid has been stopped, since covid days.

 

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But on a stainless steel plates and vessels every stain is visible including water stains.

Water stains is a hard water and rinse aid issue. Assuming the powder isn't expired.

Powders suck, whether used in hot or cold water. If one only uses porcelain, plastic, plates/cups anything will work since you cannot see any stains.

From what I can tell people are complaining about expired powder where expiry date is purposely removed by the seller. The powder is all clumped up in the bottle. I once noticed this with some bosch washing machine cleaner that was a few years old. Poured some water on a sample and was surprised to see it become like cement.

This means only locally produced like Excel rasayan is reliable. All the other powders like finish, bosch etc are imported and if the dates aren't clearly shown are expired. Nice scam these amazon sellers have because these items are all non returnable.

To test the powder put a small amount in a container and mix with water. It should dissolve and not clump. If it does then discard the box.

The problem is the lack of competition in the dishwasher detergents segment compared to in the washing machines space where it has always been cut throat. Not enough people own dishwashers to entice more players into making something locally

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Manufacture and expiry date clearly indicated.

@lockhrt999 why don't you give us a review of how well this big basket dishwasher detergent has been working?

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If it contains percarbonate I would store it in an airtight container. To test whether it does put 5gm in a flask and pour boiling water. Then watch for foam and listen for a fizz. If that's not there then it doesn't contain percarbonate.

Which then means washing aluminium vessels won't be a problem as there is nothing to oxidise it.

For tea stains, the fortune tablets used to do a okay job

Tea stains require percarbonate to remove. When I looked at the ingredients for finish powder on RB's UK site was surprised to find it didn't contain any. I was thinking of using it clean washing machines. Won't work without oxygen bleach.

You can make any stainless steel container spotless with a tsp (5gm) of Vanish powder in boiled water. Leave it for an hour. Works like magic.

Trouble is you can't use Vanish in a dishwasher. It will foam up too much. Adding plain percarbonate to detergent causes the same problem as well

but they fail to make stainless steel milk vessel spotless.

Incidentally to remove milk stuck to the bottom of a vessel. Some citric acid in hot water lifts the stuck residue on its own. Works with burnt residue for pans as well. When you soak you milk vessels add a tsp of citric acid and let it stand for an hour.

Only the most expensive tablets are able to achieve this 9 out of 10 times.

A compacted tablet is slow release so foam is kept under control. Coupled with a plastic wrapper that keeps moisture off the detergent once the packet is opened.

I've been wondering how to make tablets as you can make your own detergent more effective that way. But I think it needs some special press so not feasible.