Demonetisation and its Aftermath

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^^ Because payment options like NEFT and IMPS are not convenient. For instance, in order to do NEFT or IMPS, I have to add the person as a beneficiary and wait for several hours for it to activate and even after that, I have severe restrictions on max transactions for 48 hours. Every bank has its own rules and security measures in place for these services.

Well, icici says half an hour but it allowed me to make the txn immediately. I literally took under 10 minutes to add the merchant and xfer the amount to him.[DOUBLEPOST=1485718768][/DOUBLEPOST]And i've used paytm/mobikwik etc. and find the icici app equally if not more quick and convenient.[DOUBLEPOST=1485718834][/DOUBLEPOST]Stupid banks like SBx have ridiculous rules in place regarding new payees. Kinda ironic since they're part of the whole govt. hoopla about going cashless etc.
 
^^ As I said, not every bank has the same approach when it comes to NEFT and IMPS. Every bank has its own approach towards security. I was not even talking about SBI. What I said was the process for HDFC.

For HBSC Bank, there was no beneficiary system at all till some time back, you just have to enter the account number, IFSC and make a transfer. Now the process involves registering and waiting for activation of a beneficiary and then for every transaction, you have to unlock your RSA card (with the PIN you setup), then generate a unique OTP using the transaction amount as the seed value and enter that to compete the transaction.

I have ICICI bank account too and its just more convenient at the cost of less security. For instance, I was able to register a beneficiary and make a transfer of 1.5 lac immediately via IMPS. Imagine a situation where somebody is able to get access to your account for a short duration. With ICICI, they would be able to extract up to 10 lac immediately while with accounts like HDFC, it would be just a few thousands.

In any case, I personally don't like the idea of adding every vendor on the street as a beneficiary for my bank accounts. So, I prefer I use a wallet service that isolates such transactions
 
There are multiple safety features with ICICI which don't even add much to the time in reality. To register a new beneficiary, you will have to enter an OTP sent to your mobile number. And I think above a certain amount you will have to use 2FA like debit card grid before you can xfer.[DOUBLEPOST=1485860747][/DOUBLEPOST]I actually posted in response to vivek's post about sending money to a person he wasn't able to meet. In that specific case, using paytm and imps/neft are about the same. Maybe it's easier when making a txn at a merchant location in-person, but the point is that paytm etc should be avoided as a matter of principle since they're a major part of this scam.
 
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^ buddy maybe you should get out of your privileged city life and take a look at how farmers actually live. and survive.

while i'm not a farmer myself, my native place is a farming village and I can say for sure, farmers have some of the hardest lives in the country. every farmer doesn't own tens of acres of highly productive land either. And they get paid around 10% of the retail cost of most products you and I buy in our fancy supermarkets. Middlemen eating all the rest. Do you think all those farmers were committing suicide for TP?

And atm queues may have vanished but there still isn't enough money coming back. Just the other day I had to run to 3 atms to get some 100s. Of course they never intended to return all the money they took from us...
 
Cash cap on donations is nothing more than hogwash if the accounts still do not have to be scrutinized by IT dept. All they need to do is file bogus reports (just like they do already) without any fear of being seriously scrutinized. At worst, they will need to show 10 donations of Rs 2000 each instead of 1 for 20,000. "Bold" would be mandatory and transparent scrutiny of all political party accounts.
 
while i'm not a farmer myself, my native place is a farming village and I can say for sure, farmers have some of the hardest lives in the country. every farmer doesn't own tens of acres of highly productive land either. And they get paid around 10% of the retail cost of most products you and I buy in our fancy supermarkets. Middlemen eating all the rest. Do you think all those farmers were committing suicide for TP?.

There is a flip side to that as well. A colleague of mine is from a village and he tells me that farmers in his village just take loans and spend them as they please with the expectation that the loans would be nullified every time as long as they don't make any payments back. He says that many stopped farming altogether and live on the loans and other govt freebies. Then there are also the rich farmers who don't show their income at all and don't pay any taxes at all while taking many of the agricultural incentives.

There has to be some accountability and checks in place when giving out benefits.
 
^ buddy maybe you should get out of your privileged city life and take a look at how farmers actually live. and survive.

while i'm not a farmer myself, my native place is a farming village and I can say for sure, farmers have some of the hardest lives in the country. every farmer doesn't own tens of acres of highly productive land either. And they get paid around 10% of the retail cost of most products you and I buy in our fancy supermarkets. Middlemen eating all the rest. Do you think all those farmers were committing suicide for TP?

And atm queues may have vanished but there still isn't enough money coming back. Just the other day I had to run to 3 atms to get some 100s. Of course they never intended to return all the money they took from us...
I'm a farmer myself, hope that settles your argument. And also know much about their misery.

Read carefully, I'm asking to put a cap; not taxing every farmer...
Person owning 50+ acres of Agricultural land & not getting taxed plus getting loan waiver is illogical. We should have a limit to populist policies.
 
I'm a farmer myself, hope that settles your argument. And also know much about their misery.

Read carefully, I'm asking to put a cap; not taxing every farmer...
Person owning 50+ acres of Agricultural land & not getting taxed plus getting loan waiver is illogical. We should have a limit to populist policies.
According to Indian laws (different for every state),
there is a cap on the amount of land holding a family can have. In most states that limit is 10 acres.
The aim of such policies was to ascertain that the land that was taken from Zamindars and given to the landless doesn't end up back in the hands of the Zamindars.
But just like other policies such policies don't get implemented because the politicians themselves own vast swathes of land and also use them as means to convert black money to white.
Also, agriculture practices that can earn an honest farmer some good amount of money are already taxed like dairy, tea, coffee and rubber industry.
Agriculture loan rates are also very high apart from KCC loans and adding a tax on top would just break the backs of people who want to make a successful foray into farming.

Our laws and it's implementations are so archaic and so much discretionary powers are given that they even charged tax to farmers who were growing Mushrooms and doing Hydroponic farming. It's like the people in power don't want farming and farmers to become a viable option for people to choose as a livelihood.
 
3 months since the note-recall.
12 ATMs near my home in Chennai.
Not a single one of them has cash.
 
According to Indian laws (different for every state),
there is a cap on the amount of land holding a family can have. In most states that limit is 10 acres.
The aim of such policies was to ascertain that the land that was taken from Zamindars and given to the landless doesn't end up back in the hands of the Zamindars.
But just like other policies such policies don't get implemented because the politicians themselves own vast swathes of land and also use them as means to convert black money to white.
Also, agriculture practices that can earn an honest farmer some good amount of money are already taxed like dairy, tea, coffee and rubber industry.
Agriculture loan rates are also very high apart from KCC loans and adding a tax on top would just break the backs of people who want to make a successful foray into farming.

Our laws and it's implementations are so archaic and so much discretionary powers are given that they even charged tax to farmers who were growing Mushrooms and doing Hydroponic farming. It's like the people in power don't want farming and farmers to become a viable option for people to choose as a livelihood.

10 Acres is a very small Cap, I'm not aware of such a legislation (If you are talking about the Land act it is useless in current scenario) , I myself own much more than that. In a society of farmers which I know, what I own is considered entry level ! I know may of them owning hundreds of acres and living a much lavish lifestyle than we can even imagine. What will these people do with such a massive non taxable wealth and relative free time (agricultural work needs you to be in active work for 6 months a year, other months are relatively free. If you've outsourced your work ; you are just supposed do a vigilance) ? They mostly turn to politics, to kill free time, run for various elections. Why is that there are more Farmer turned politicians Vs other Professionals (like Engineers/Doctors) turned politicians ? I have lived a village life for quite a number of years and I know what all they do in free time.

These are the major source of black money and its economy in our country and should be curtailed in order to reduce the menace of Black economy IMHO.

1. The Cap on non taxable agricultural wealth is a must, British used to tax farmers (Lagaan) without exceptions. It was a ploy to promote Indian freedom struggle, so more and more farmers can join the protest considering the economic benefits . Now, after 70 yrs of Independence such practices should go. No Political party has a spine to put such a legislation into place. I'm not asking to Tax everyone, but the ones above certain income and with adequate respite during floods and drought etc. People owning massive amount of lands are no different than any other businessman, the soft corner of being a farmer should not be applied. Whenever such a discussion is brought about, they will conveniently hide behind the shadows of poor , marginalized, suicide prone farmer picture and ask how the hell can you tax him? There is a lot of involvement of such wealthy farmers in the misery of not so well to do small farmers. They will give money at a interest and make sure that the poor farmer either has to sell his lands or commit suicide in order to repay the loans. Otherwise from where will you get agricultural labor ? agricultural laborers are nothing but poor farmers who had to sell off their lands .

2. Political Party donations: This government has done a pretty good job where the cash donation cap is Brought down to Rs 2500. I would have preferred a total ban on cash donations but it is too much to ask in one go. But the remarkable development is such a donation can be traced from now on. Next step is to bring them under the RTI. I know there's more work to be done but it is a good start nevertheless.

3. Political and bureaucracy Kickbacks, one of the major reasons for Black money economy to exist. bureaucrats are as corrupt as politicians, and they can kill any policy to their benefits. We now know that the public sector bank officials can be as corrupt as Govt officials if there is an opportunity. Majority of Qs during demonetization were due to siphoning of loads of newer currencies at a percentage with the backing and involvement of local politicians. This is the first time by any Govt that, some IAS officials were asked to take voluntary retirement on the basis of Non performance.

4. Taxing the religious institutes, so called "Charitable Trusts" and NGOs: Their involvement in concealing, converting black money is enormous . Now we know that all religious places are designed and managed as businesses then, what is wrong to tax them and bring them under the RTI? Many of the NGOs in India function no more than Hawala agents. Again, No Political party has a spine to put such a legislation into place.

5. Gold, Benaami Properties , Fraud companies should be tackled next by the govt. If a cashless economy starts getting momentum as it is apparent now, there will be many fraud companies to convert Black to white or send the money to offshore tax heavens . Which is a much serious issue where country is literally getting robbed of its wealth. With the advent of Cashless economy the chances of converting the Black money to a Grey economy (fraud companies etc) is a dangerous phenomenon. With routine boasting of India having : some XX numbers of Mobile connections , XX number of Smartphone users, XX number of internet uses etc promoting a cashless economy though seems ideal but such workarounds to a grey economy needs to be curtailed too.

6. Putting a Cap on amount of wealth that can be transferred from parents to their kids; Much of our hoarding mentality comes from our love for our kids and earning a lot for their betterment. If you can put a reasonable Cap; on the amount parental wealth getting transferred, the desire to accumulate wealth fades to a substantial extent, BTW that teaches your future generation to perform and to earn for themselves. Recently Jackie Chan & previously Bill Gates made great pledges not transfer all off their wealth to their kids and asked them to Perform and earn for themselves. Such a measure will reduce our hoarding mentality and reduce corruption to a greater extent.
 
10 Acres is a very small Cap, I'm not aware of such a legislation (If you are talking about the Land act it is useless in current scenario) , I myself own much more than that. In a society of farmers which I know, what I own is considered entry level ! I know may of them owning hundreds of acres and living a much lavish lifestyle than we can even imagine. What will these people do with such a massive non taxable wealth and relative free time (agricultural work needs you to be in active work for 6 months a year, other months are relatively free. If you've outsourced your work ; you are just supposed do a vigilance) ? They mostly turn to politics, to kill free time, run for various elections. Why is that there are more Farmer turned politicians Vs other Professionals (like Engineers/Doctors) turned politicians ? I have lived a village life for quite a number of years and I know what all they do in free time.

These are the major source of black money and its economy in our country and should be curtailed in order to reduce the menace of Black economy IMHO.

1. The Cap on non taxable agricultural wealth is a must, British used to tax farmers (Lagaan) without exceptions. It was a ploy to promote Indian freedom struggle, so more and more farmers can join the protest considering the economic benefits . Now, after 70 yrs of Independence such practices should go. No Political party has a spine to put such a legislation into place. I'm not asking to Tax everyone, but the ones above certain income and with adequate respite during floods and drought etc. People owning massive amount of lands are no different than any other businessman, the soft corner of being a farmer should not be applied. Whenever such a discussion is brought about, they will conveniently hide behind the shadows of poor , marginalized, suicide prone farmer picture and ask how the hell can you tax him? There is a lot of involvement of such wealthy farmers in the misery of not so well to do small farmers. They will give money at a interest and make sure that the poor farmer either has to sell his lands or commit suicide in order to repay the loans. Otherwise from where will you get agricultural labor ? agricultural laborers are nothing but poor farmers who had to sell off their lands .

Every state has different land ceilings, some as low as 10 acres and some as high as 50-60 acres. Also this ceiling is for a family and not an individual.

I don't mind that successful farmers be taxed. But how can one ascertain what is this cap. And this should come at a stage when the compensation packages are clearly defined and implemented. I wouldn't mind paying tax at the level of corporates provided similar benefits are provided. However, that seems a far-fetched dream as the current rates of agriculture loans (apart from KCC) are too high.

Also, just owning a lot of land doesn't guarantee success. I have been to many Agriculture Universities, and they have a dismal record of transfer of knowledge to the actual farmers. I have found much better and advanced knowledge online than at these so called hubs of agriculture excellence spread over 100s of acre of land.

So, sure, make me pay tax, but not before you provide it with the necessary support structure to turn it into a viable employment opportunity.

2. Political Party donations: This government has done a pretty good job where the cash donation cap is Brought down to Rs 2500. I would have preferred a total ban on cash donations but it is too much to ask in one go. But the remarkable development is such a donation can be traced from now on. Next step is to bring them under the RTI. I know there's more work to be done but it is a good start nevertheless.

4. Taxing the religious institutes, so called "Charitable Trusts" and NGOs: Their involvement in concealing, converting black money is enormous . Now we know that all religious places are designed and managed as businesses then, what is wrong to tax them and bring them under the RTI? Many of the NGOs in India function no more than Hawala agents. Again, No Political party has a spine to put such a legislation into place.

You are right. No political party has the spine to make these right decisions, which alone would be 100 times better at hurting the black money economy than this stupid implementation of demonetization.

6. Putting a Cap on amount of wealth that can be transferred from parents to their kids; Much of our hoarding mentality comes from our love for our kids and earning a lot for their betterment. If you can put a reasonable Cap; on the amount parental wealth getting transferred, the desire to accumulate wealth fades to a substantial extent, BTW that teaches your future generation to perform and to earn for themselves. Recently Jackie Chan & previously Bill Gates made great pledges not transfer all off their wealth to their kids and asked them to Perform and earn for themselves. Such a measure will reduce our hoarding mentality and reduce corruption to a greater extent.

This, IMHO, is a bit extreme. If the money is earned honestly, then it shouldn't matter how the person wishes to utilize it. In fact, in a country like India, where governmental support in case of crisis is virtually nonexistent, it is beneficial to save some money which can be used in case of emergency or saved for known future expenses. I would say it is much better to save and spend than to splurge and then take loans.
 
10 Acres is a very small Cap, I myself own much more than that. In a society of farmers which I know, what I own is considered entry level ! I know may of them owning hundreds of acres
How does one procure hundreds of acres of farm land in Hyderabad?
 
Every state has different land ceilings, some as low as 10 acres and some as high as 50-60 acres. Also this ceiling is for a family and not an individual.

I don't mind that successful farmers be taxed. But how can one ascertain what is this cap. And this should come at a stage when the compensation packages are clearly defined and implemented. I wouldn't mind paying tax at the level of corporates provided similar benefits are provided. However, that seems a far-fetched dream as the current rates of agriculture loans (apart from KCC) are too high.

Also, just owning a lot of land doesn't guarantee success. I have been to many Agriculture Universities, and they have a dismal record of transfer of knowledge to the actual farmers. I have found much better and advanced knowledge online than at these so called hubs of agriculture excellence spread over 100s of acre of land.

So, sure, make me pay tax, but not before you provide it with the necessary support structure to turn it into a viable employment opportunity.



You are right. No political party has the spine to make these right decisions, which alone would be 100 times better at hurting the black money economy than this stupid implementation of demonetization.



This, IMHO, is a bit extreme. If the money is earned honestly, then it shouldn't matter how the person wishes to utilize it. In fact, in a country like India, where governmental support in case of crisis is virtually nonexistent, it is beneficial to save some money which can be used in case of emergency or saved for known future expenses. I would say it is much better to save and spend than to splurge and then take loans.
1. Precisely that is the issue here, how to ascertain the exact income when everything is unaccounted. Since independence any sort of revolutionary change in our economic policy has hit the same road block ; the probability of a negative impact on the informal or unorganized sector - result, we cling on to a legacy economic policy and a horrible taxation system. For every positive policy change one has to answer its benefits on a unorganized sector whose significance cannot be ascertained.
Coming to the number aids given to farmers is already much more, but it doesn't reach the real needy, BTW what does the government aids to any other professions, say Software engineers? Why so many SOPs only to farmers, aren't other professionals working hard enough? Its again a vote bank politics nothing much ; if the intentions were clear, no farmer would have committed suicide ; all the SOPs are used, misused by wealthy farmers.

Demonetization in a way has unmasked such a practice of informal economics and its impact , with a compulsive push to cashless economy some form of accounting will be brought about which is a good thing (though the inventory push to "Cashless economy" was an accident rather than a well thought out option). Without accountability, a road side Pan shop vendor (without a tax return) would be taking home much more than a qualified software engineer after deducting applicable taxes. Any useful policy can be formed only if there's enough data on the unorganized sector.

Any economist worth his salt knows that, finding a handful of black money hoarders more than a 500cr won't add up much to the income tax returns but it's habituating and forcing the millions of smaller non income tax payers to pay the returns will be a greater accomplishment, which will be aided by the push to a cashless economy.

6. The rich vs poor divide is one of the world's worst in India, parental wealth transfer is one of the main reasons for continuing and further widening of the divide..


Let it not be a percentage, instead a cap as high as 100cr can also keep the things moving.
How does one procure hundreds of acres of farm land in Hyderabad?
Its not possible to procure acres of farm land in Hyderabad, its mostly marked as NA land. Neither I own 100 acres nor my lands are in proper Hyderabad read it again.
 
Bajaj Auto managing director Rajiv Bajaj on Thursday said the idea of demonetisation was itself “wrong” and it is incorrect to blame only the execution side of it.

“If the solution or the idea is right, it will go like a hot knife through butter...if the idea is not working, for example demonetisation, don’t blame execution. I think your idea itself is wrong,” Bajaj said at the annual Nasscom leadership forum.


http://www.livemint.com/Companies/P...of-demonetisation-wrong-says-Rajiv-Bajaj.html
 
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