Discussion on brick and mortar stores

[Sobirvs]

All of them are stores. Not personal shops, so that's expect as owner isn't entertaining customers, it's the paid trainers that's dealing with customers. If it had been multibrand shops, this attitude doesn't exists most of the time.

Yeah, doomed. We'll see what the brands will do when 1/3rd of sales move online. This is just scaremongering. Right now despite the cries of being affected, offline retailers still account for over 90% of the sales. Once the momentum starts shifting, the brands will know better.

No this is not something I said just to scare people or anything, I don't have that intention. I just said that to let people know what managers of different area are thinking.

 

[nimod]

If you can't survive in a free market, your business provides no value and deserves to die. The same has happened the world over. Even in the US, there have been casualties of war thanks to e-commerce. It is nothing new!

Its not a free market. FK/Amazon is getting funds of $1/2B from foreign investors and a major part of that money is passed on to you as an offer/advertisement. What about the retailer down the street. He does not get that funding from anyone. So, this minimum selling price or whatever you call it, is a must and the retailer/e-retailer can strike a deal with the OEM and sell based on that but not like this unfair funding. Create a fair ground and let the players do their job in their own ways. If the commerce ministry does that, everyone will be happy nothing more and nothing less. This is the main reason for FDI in retail is not supported by many parties. They have their own political advantages/strategies but ultimately its not a level paying ground for all. Imagine Afghanistan playing Australia and Afghan players will be shot dead if they dont win and nothing for Aussies if they lose. Do you call it a fair match?

I myself bought a TV after checking at Croma from FK at <50% of the price croma quoted which is price error from FK. As a customer of FK, I am happy that I got a great price.

These discounts are not being created by the invisible hand but by the invisible fist.
Once it knocks out the B&M stores, you will see them (hardly two or three of these ecom sites will survive the entire bloodshed) sucking people's blood.
Just wait and watch.

 

[chiron]

Even in that hypothetical future, the worst they can do is sell everything at MRP which is no different from what B&M stores have been doing for years.

 

[letmein]

Once it knocks out the B&M stores, you will see them (hardly two or three of these ecom sites will survive the entire bloodshed) sucking people's blood.
Just wait and watch.

How do you know this? Amazon is still the cheapest and the best in the US.

 

[Rickyk]

Firstly, WOT warning.

Couple of months ago I had a couple of hilarious incidents with vis-a-vis "Online-vs-B&M" that some of you reading this thread might find interesting.

Wanted to buy a set of Sony speakers with a Sub Woofer. Checked prices online followed by a voice call to check pricing & availability. Normally, I buy most things online but as these were speakers, I wanted to HEAR them rather than simply go by online user reviews. Plus, I was a bit wary of recieving DOA stuff as I was buying this as a gift for someone else which is why I wanted to buy it from a local shop.

I decided to make my FIRST EVER visit to a Croma Store near my house. This wasn't a random decision as you will see later.

Walked in, asked for the speaker section and started looking for the model I wanted. 5 minutes into my search, a visibly UNINTERESTED/BORED Store Assistant asks me what I am looking for. I give him the EXACT name and model no. of the speakers. Without even checking he replies they are not in stock and "better" ones are available. I skeptically ask him to show me the "better" ones which turn out to be complete rubbish (no surprises there).

I then just casually ask him if they could arrange the speakers I wanted as they did stock them in the past. He replied no, saying they are a "discontinued" model. I asked him what price they used to sell for just to give me an idea. He says they were for around 7k when they were selling them.

I then told him that I had checked online and the price I was given for the speakers was Rs.4999.

His reply - "Sir, online they sell you FAKE/2nd HAND ITEMS and you will NOT GET WARRANTY. That is how they sell so cheap".

I then revealed to this STUPID TWIT that the "online store" I had checked pricing was cromaretail.com - ie. - CROMA's OWN ONLINE Shop and not some random site!!

Not just that.

I had actually called Croma's Toll Free no. and they had CONFIRMED to me that the EXACT item & model no. I was looking for was IN STOCK with the VERY Croma Store that was near my house!

He was obviously flustered when I gave him this info and went to a PC terminal "to check stock".

2 minutes later he comes back sheepishly saying that the item -IS- in Stock but its price is Rs.6000.

I then asked him to show me the piece. For some reason these speakers are not lying with the rest of the speakers but in another corner of the store. They actually had 5 brand new pcs. of it in stock!

The price on it was marked as Rs.6000. I then insist I was given a price of Rs.4999 on the phone. He refuses to listen saying its Rs.6000. By this time I was getting visibly pissed off.

I ask to see the store manager. The store manager listens to me and asks for 5 minutes to make some calls.He then comes back and agrees that the price is Rs.4999, just as I have been saying all along, leaving the store assistant visibly red faced.

I then asked them to connect the speakers so that I could test them as they don't have any display set.

They both refuse and state I will first have to buy them before they will agree to open and test them.

Fricking ridiculous & extremely frustrating!

So I buy the speakers and then they open a box and test them for me. Luckily everything is fine.

If it had not been for the fact that I had to buy this as a gift, I would have walked out of the store and bought them online for Rs.4999 delivered to my house!

I finally leave with my first ever Croma experience being a terrible one.

BTW, this was NOT an isolated incident. The next incident I had with them was the breaking point for me and B&M Croma stores in particular.

I wanted to buy a WD Ultra 1 TB drive. Checked online, found a price of Rs.3959. Walked into the exact same Croma store and was told the price is 5999 being the MRP. I am then "advised" to buy a 1TB Seagate drive instead for "just" Rs.4100 as its "cheaper and as good".

I was already used to this BS response so I ask for the Store Manager only to be told hes currently unavailable.

I then tell the sales assistant that its available on Amazon.in for Rs.3959. Again, I am given the standard "online is all fake/old/2nd hand/without warranty" BS.

Then I explain that the Amazon.in "SELLER" offering it for that price is none other than CROMA itself!

He couldn't understand what I meant and kept repeating his "fake/old/2nd hand/without warranty" rubbish. After trying to make him see sense for 5 min, I left the store, came back home and ordered it from Amazon.in with "Croma" as the Amazon seller.

I didn't just leave it at that btw. I emailed Croma as well -


Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2014 12:42 PM
To: customer support
Subject: Absurd pricing difference for products being sold by you
Hi
What's the point of offering products cheaper on another website rather than promoting your own? Why is it cheaper to buy Croma products from Amazon.in (via Cromaretail) rather than from Croma directly?

Link for product on Amazon.in being sold by Cromaretail (Price - Rs.3959) -
http://www.amazon.in/WD-Passport-Ul...=merchant-items&ie=UTF8&qid=1394953017&sr=1-1

Link for exact same item on Croma's website (Price - Rs.5999) -

http://www.cromaretail.com/WD-My-Passport-Ultra-WDBZFP0010BBK-1-TB-External-Hard-Drive-(Black)-pc-18732-229.aspx

Difference in price between the two offerings - Rs. 2000!

In other words, Croma is happier promoting & selling products on Amazon.in rather than on your own service? You guys are just shooting yourselves in the foot by following such absurd practices. If thats the case, why do you even bother to run your own website? Just shift everything to Amazon.in and close your website & Stores. You will save money.
Regards


Couple of days later I get a reply saying they will "look into it". Nothing after that. I honestly think they don't give a damn.

The point is - when Stores like Croma are themselves selling items CHEAPER on sites like Amazon rather than their own online & BM stores who's fault is that?! Should we blame Amazon for this?

This whole "B&M versus online" debate is old hat in the US. Literally 1000's of "mom & pop" retail stores have been run out of business due to online retailers like Amazon because they are unable to compete.

Several others have actually moved their stores/wares onto Amazon's storefront. Yet others have found niche products/services that Amazon is still unable to compete with.

If OEM's are not giving B&M sellers the same pricing/discounts they are giving online retailers, then this is an issue that the B&M sellers need to take up with the OEM's. How is this the online retailers fault?

Even IF, an online retailer is selling something BELOW the OEM's transfer price - so what?

AFAIK, we only have a concept of MRP for the MAX price something can be sold at. We don't have a concept of "Minimun Retail Price" when it comes to selling items locally.

If an online retailer wants to sell something at a loss - let them. Since when is it the job of the Govt. to ensure everyone's commercial ventures are "profitable"?

Have you also stopped to consider that it could also be possible that OEM's actually making MORE money selling via online retailers versus B&M stores? After all, there are several less links in the chain (regional distributor/local distributor/retailer) that would otherwise eat into an OEM's profit not to mention B&M Rentals, Staffing costs & other overheads.

As a consumer, I want the BEST (read lowest) price with the best possible service. When I order something online, I usually get both without having to so much so as step outside my house thanks to free delivery as well. Then there's the HUGE bonus of "30 days no questions asked returns" offered by most sites.

Compare this with my Croma (which BTW is a TATA Enterprise mind you, not some local unknown entity) experience where I was first told the item is "discontinued", followed by the "MRP price is final price" line and finally the REFUSAL to test a piece until I actually bought it.

Absolutely ridiculous!

Add to this the fact that I had to leave my house, drive to a local store and argue with incompetent, uninformed sales assistants and I can fully understand why more and more people prefer to shop online.

If you're running some kind of B&M store and you're finding it hard to compete with online sellers, perhaps its time you need to reconsider your line of business. The net has forever changed the way we communicate and conduct business. You cannot turn this back no matter how hard you try.

Steam/Origin etc. have done pretty much the same thing for PC gaming versus traditional B&M stores. Four years ago, (2009), NPD Group had stated that Digital PC game sales had accounted for 21.3 million games downloaded in the US versus 23.5 million purchased at retail. By now, I'm pretty DD has over taken B&M sales when it comes to PC game sales.

So does that mean Steam/Origin should be banned from selling games online or offering incredible sale discounts that B&M stores obviously have ZERO chance matching? Good luck to B&M stores getting THAT to happen!

The Indian Postal Service recently discontinued the "telegram" for the same reason. If you can't compete you can't survive - period.

TLDR;

If you in any sort of business and you feel you can't compete for any number of reasons, then perhaps its better to see the writing on the wall NOW and consider other options while you still have the time...

 

[chiron]

I think it is perfectly acceptable for shops to not open the box for testing before buying.

 

[abracadabra]

The most horrible part is the way they market whatever bullshit the manager has told him/her to the customer and brainwash them!

Its like the moment I walk into these stores is say for example I want to buy a TV, they would show me a TV where their margins are high in the first shot, irrespective of what budget or what size that I'm looking for.. I sometime just listen to the sales pitch, it sometimes good to hear them provided you have the time. I personally dont like the sales pitch cos the guy will be happy the moment you say you'll buy it else he would have a disgruntled face the whole time you ask him anything! Then I go about looking at the other TV's which makes the point to the guy in the showroom, that I'm not falling for his pitch, which make him feel a little more awkward and he moves on. Now finally I get my mind peace, Whoosh no one around to yell upon; so finally find a sweet TV which I want, ask the showroom guy for the TV remote, play around with the settings and stuff, now I ask him this and that; for all the questions he is going to hold his first sales pitch irrespective of whatever the questions I ask.

Now that makes things even more easier for me, I can just walk out of the showroom and by knowing what is the best price that they have on offer or what goodies/ exchanges are they willing to bundle up! I probably can look up some online stores that have a presence and see what they have to offer to and make a better decision in buying...!

We all have it in our blood stream that whatever we get in the least pricing we like to get it, no matter what quality/ quantity it is in! We hoard too much!

 

[Onemufc]

Great post @Rickyk

 

[Rickyk]

I think it is perfectly acceptable for shops to not open the box for testing before buying.

I suppose everyone has their own view on this and for most items, I would agree with that view. No one expects to be able to test out a Washing Machine, Fridge, AC or computer components in a store. Its not practical.

However when it comes to Audio/Visual equipment such as TV's, Music Systems, Speakers, Headphones - user preference can vary as it a tends to be a somewhat personal/subjective experience.

If I was buying a new TV tomorrow, I would balk at buying it blindly no matter how good the reviews were. I would want to see the screen quality for myself. The only thing I would check online is that the specs meet my requirements. Yet, there are other people who are perfectly happy with buying a TV online. Everyone is different.

The fact is, I went to a B&M store rather than order it online because -
a) I wanted to "Hear" the sound of the speakers and judge for myself whether they were good.
b) I wanted it fast - ie. the same day.
c) I didn't want to chance a potential DOA delivery from an online seller due to the turnaround time involved.

However what I experienced was something else.

They didn't have a display piece - this is their fault not mine considering they had display/test setups for other speakers. So I was asked to pay for it & a bill was generated with the Serial No. of the unit I was buying. This could have lead to 2 disastrous consequences -

1) I might not have liked the sound! What would I have done in that case? I certainly couldn't have returned it to them whereas if I had bought it online I could return it within 30 days for a full refund with no questions asked.

2) What if the item had been DEAD? I "assume" that since they had generated a bill with the serial no. of the unit specifically, they would (more than likely) have asked me to take it to a Sony Service Center.

So in effect, I would have ended up running around burning fuel locating the Service Center apart from wasting my time. Had I bought it online and it arrived DOA, all I would do is inform Amazon and they would replace it. I woundn't have to so much so as step out of my house.

I don't think some B&M store owners realize that they should be offering the customer -MORE- options versus online retailers, not LESS.

Its this sort "couldn't care less" attitude that tends to push buyers even further into the online retailers corner...

 

[asingh]

Exactly, but lemme repharase that to you, it is not fixed price, sure sometimes but when seasons comes like Diwali's and stuff, there comes discounts (actual discounts and not like flipkart where they hike the price yesterday and sell at the same price today saying discounts!).

That is known as a mark-up. Most commodities do that on a standard practice. For examples watches and jewelry...! People are free to check around. Even today when I buy something big offline (like my 40" Sony LED, I asked many shops) before I took the plunge. You know the discount battle is between the B&M and FK shops, not us. We just want to buy commodities with least hassle, no opaque layer, no lying in between (about the product) and no push-no-return cycle. These factors happen immensely and grossly in the B&M sector. Not that web sites cannot lie, but they have mechanisms in place where refunds can be done and return backs incurred. B&M owners (if you do not know them) just shrug their shoulders and are one step away from saying f*** off and/or showing the middle finger. Why...cause they are sitting in a messy environment (physically) with a badly arranged shop and do know know where is what, and are handling customers with a skewed customers : providers ratio...! They are overloaded specially in the mornings and evenings when milk is being sold.

What you said about fixed price makes sense, but are not the OEM managers stressing am minimal fixed price. It is the same concept. The B&M lobby should strike up a notion with the government to have policing around then, and not who can sell what at a certain price point..!

The society we live in is built on values that everyone can offer. Retailers had a value in the sense that they acted as middlemen between the manufacturers and the customers; they still do. They are just being replaced slowly by a more efficient system. But not everything is lost for even them. They can still add value in other areas apart from just pushing goods.

Yes, they are being replaced by robots -which- is a website. I am perfectly fine with this. I loathe each time, I have to step outside my shop to deal with rude shop keepers. Sorry to say.

Firstly, WOT warning.
...
...
...
you still have the time...

Chroma is a disgrace to the B&M setup. It should be banished and shut down. They have the worst handlers in the stores and the knowledge pool is probably in the -ve rather than them knowing something. And God, knows what prices they are selling at. I asked for a Bajaj FX11 (food processor) they only had FX10. The sales man said: FX11 has less jars, when this is not the case at all. They wanted to sell the FX10 display piece at a rate higher than FX11 (much higher). I have written this before here: last year I bought a fridge and washing machine from Chroma. (I have a Chroma store literally in my colony), it is like 1 minute away. I payed the bill and told them specifically at payment time to make the delivery day after. The moron still created the delivery manifesto for the next day. I was standing in front of him. I told him my delivery requirement, and within 10-12 seconds he inputted it incorrectly. Believe me I was so pissed off, that I almost blew my fuse. The salesman saw my anger and tried to pacify me. He tells me (cashier): "apko jab call ayegee..for delivery, sirf manaa kar dena aaj ke liye"; (when the call comes refuse delivery for today), and shrugged his shoulders. Even a chimp could have performed better than that cashier. And that is what happened: I got the delivery call next day (I was out) and had to explain to them "no"; tomorrow. I did go through a hassle right. Chroma is being grossly insincere to customers based on their brand value and Indian customers not tuned into even average service. We are so used to horrible and sub-par, cause of the B&M shops we have been weaned on. Chroma is a delight compared to B&M traditional..! LOL.

 

[chiron]

The only purchase I made from a B&M store in the past decade was my 6k washing machine whereas I've spend about 5L on online purchases and fwict I'm a pretty stingy person when it comes to buying anything.

 

[Chaos]

These discounts are not being created by the invisible hand but by the invisible fist.
Once it knocks out the B&M stores, you will see them (hardly two or three of these ecom sites will survive the entire bloodshed) sucking people's blood.
Just wait and watch.

Thanks but I will still take my chances. It is not that I am against b&m shops. I am against the price fixing scam artists that 90% of b&m shops in india are. Its a good thing that these guys are now trembling in their boots. As I mentioned earlier - compete - not necessarily in price or perish.

Let me say I have had some excellent experiences of late with some of the local retailers I have met. Last year when I wanted a turntable, the local dealer went out of the way to get me a demo of a not so cheap clearaudio turntable. He even offered to bring it home for an audition and offered me a price lower than the German msrp for a made in Germany product. Needless to say I voted for him with my wallet.

The unfortunate truth though is that such experiences in india are rarer than a unicorn.

 

[Sobirvs]

Now it's like repeating all I said earlier. Didn't we go through the same opinions as earlier ? Anyways, I'm done here. Great conversations.

btw let's wait for a day when robots emerge and actually take over every damn job in the world.

Pretty scary.
When a doctor won't be needed, an engineer won't be needed. A day when Google won't have those thousands of employees but instead just like 40 may be. A day when amazon won't be needing people to operate their business. Just heads or even not them.

 

[letmein]

btw let's wait for a day when robots emerge and actually take over every damn job in the world.

Pretty scary.
When a doctor won't be needed, an engineer won't be needed. A day when Google won't have those thousands of employees but instead just like 40 may be. A day when amazon won't be needing people to operate their business. Just heads or even not them.

Sounds like utopia to me.
You sound like those government employees who used to protest against the 'evil' computers that took away their jobs.

 

[Sobirvs]

Sounds like utopia to me.
You sound like those government employees who used to protest against the 'evil' computers that took away their jobs.

lol, I guess it's time to shut up. I'm done with this.

 

[m-jeri]

haha atleast you are honest here. As far as I'm concerned , if you step your foot on B&M shops and then buy online, just shows your cheapness. Sure buy it from different store locally if the dealer isn't being helpful but you are using B&M services and not paying anything to them sure sounds cheapness in you(no pun intended).

This. This post had me laughing so hard.
To the poster:
If you are being sarcastic, please put tags
If you were not, Haa ji. I am the cheapest of them all. No qualms.

So when you bought a car or bike, you just went to the first shop and thats it?
So when you rented or bought your shop or warehouse. you went to the first guy and thats it?

If you have gone to a mutliple person, you are the cheapest of them all. How dare you get a better price?

People wants the best bang for their buck. I have stood inside the shop and checked price infront of the salesman. Several times.
In Several countries. If they think I am cheap, I am cheap. No issues. Its my money. But sometimes, I even bought from b&M shops. Just because i couldnt wait or wanted to check it out in person or I couldnt find it online.

I for one, want all the B&M Electronics stores to be closed and shut down. They are just downright rude(Several experiences). They treat people like shit(Several experiences). They don't offer returns. They charge me 2% for their credit card swipes. If I want to demo something, I should buy it first and then do it. I mean what the hell.

LOL. Actually mate I'm from Jammu and deal in big consumer goods(not phones or other small items) and most of the products flipkart was selling didn't have the eligibility of shipping to Jammu's pincode. So, we didn't go affected at all. Also, was just talking to distributor that day and he said, we(north distributors) specifically blocked the shipments here from flipkart because they are committed to B&M shops.

Oh so you were not joking. You do belong to a mafia/cartel sort of system. I mean isnt that what the last line says?. If you are up for level playing feild how about letting them in? Or where you saying that your cartel will define the "level" of the playing field and e tailers need to play by that rules?. If so I completely agree. You are spot on.

 

[pauldmps]

Now it's like repeating all I said earlier. Didn't we go through the same opinions as earlier ? Anyways, I'm done here. Great conversations.

btw let's wait for a day when robots emerge and actually take over every damn job in the world.

Pretty scary.
When a doctor won't be needed, an engineer won't be needed. A day when Google won't have those thousands of employees but instead just like 40 may be. A day when amazon won't be needing people to operate their business. Just heads or even not them.

If you are not living under the rock, then you might know that day will never come. The IT industry's requirement is increasing day-by-day and it will continue to do so. At the end of everything, there are humans and given the fierce competition and emerging newer technologies, more people will be absorbed in the industry. No sir, a world without doctors or engineers is not possible. A world without electronics B&M shops is definitely possible.

BTW, the video you posted is made by humans.

 

[avi]

BTW, the video you posted is made by humans.

You have any proof? I think Robots made it.

 

[AK3D]

Another recent out of the way example. My better half bought me a pair of slippers bought from a local Bata store. The strap was too tight and pinched my foot, so with the receipt, I had to travel a few kms to the store to get them exchanged. On going there, the employee says "No saar, these look used". I told him that the plastic tag is still hanging on the slippers and you think someone will walk out with it hanging on? Then, he called his manager, who took a receipt, and then pointed to an obscure line. "Look, discounted products are not to be exchanged in any circumstances, that is company policy". Rather than argue, I asked him politely if he could at least give me a larger size since these were of no use. I got a great reply "Sir, we can't exchange or replace, since everything is entered in the computer, if you can't use them, gift them to someone". I didn't say another word and walked out of the store. Of course, the lesson I got from that was that I will never enter another Bata store again.
It is not the money that matters, it's a very small amount. The attitude and callousness towards the customers however, is another story.

I should have simply ordered from FK or Myntra or Jabong or wherever and saved my time and energy. I would have had the footwear delivered to my place, and if they didn't fit or whatever, I could simply have requested a refund or exchange without any hassle.

For that, there is another example. I got a toy for my kid off Amazon, and a couple of pieces were missing from it. When I contacted their support, they asked if I would like a refund. Now I was in two minds, since the toy was already opened, and my kid was already playing with it. I told the CSE that I would get back to them later, whereupon, he gave me a 100 rupee voucher to make up for the hassle. It left me happy. Unlike the time when I had bought a toy from a B&M store, the toy was broken inside. When I approached the shopkeeper, he said "These are chinese goods, we can't exchange or refund you".
There are many such examples that our countrymen have had to go through. There have been price fixing cartels, from electronics to clothes, to you name it. The new online stores take out the middlemen, and have also given superb service. It's an easy choice, at least to me.

Another thing, the reason that companies like Canon or Nikon etc etc have been crying is that their dealer/distributor lobbies have been pestering them no end, because online purchasing is there to stay. I will of course, purchase at a price that is convenient to my wallet, or where I get good service. B&M stores and dealer/distri cartels should be sued instead for price fixing and bullying these online stores just because they can't be competitive.
Not all traders are rude, mind you. I have good terms with many dealers in computer goods and will still prefer to pay a couple 100 rupees more and purchase from them, mainly because of the helpful and courteous attitude. However, the majority of them will hardly raise their heads to greet you or bother to reply, unless it is with a grunt. We understand that you're all busy trading in zillions of hard disks and motherboards, but every drop in the ocean matters. When these drops keep merging into the stream that is now online, do these callous people sit up and take notice. Rather than compete, they gripe about what they are losing. They never thought that it was to do with their attitude and way of trading that led to this scenario in the first place. I won't shed too many tears, frankly.

Edit : One thing I find surprising is the sense of entitlement we have. I have seen many cases of sour grapes about Flipkart. I added a toy for my son as it was at a 40% discount that day, but in 15 mins, it was removed from the cart as it was sold. The same thing happened with a set of good Allen keys from Stanley, it was at half price. Of course someone else would have noticed it too. Rather than gripe about it, I was happy with another purchase I had managed to make, which I was eyeing for a long time, and got a 25% discount on it. The amount of complaints were beyond me. It is as if the world owes them something! I also did some price comparisons between sites, like everyone else and found better deals on Amazon and Snapdeal. Do we not always look at current market prices when trading even in our TE market? People are always quick to point out when a price is too high (no one apparently points out when it's too low!).

 

[chiron]

On an unrelated note Khadims is better than Bata anyday.