Do iPods have poor sound quality?

[greenhorn]

Do we really need an audio analyzer to find out if a player sounds neutral/flat?

Unless you have a highly trained Ear, Our ears are very forgiving w.r.t frequency response. And then there is the dependency on the earphones/speakers. You do need an analyzer to do that.
Of course, to say if the player sounds good, your ears should be all you need

 

[desiibond]

yes. testing with an amp is the best way (as I said in my earlier posts) but the problem is how many can do that? And as you all said, when it comes to actually listening, the whole picture changes. As a result, don't you guys think that picking up a player that sounds flat and getting the right type of earphones that match your listening taste works for most?

Well, not many can tweak the settings like audiophiles do on players like Cowon D2 and with external amps.

anyways, I am pretty sure that D2 BBE settings definitely brighten the sound signature and if setup wrongly, audio output can be painfully bad. And unless you set the right settings, signature changes a lot that there will be huge loss of notes/sounds.

 

[greenhorn]

yes. testing with an amp is the best way (as I said in my earlier posts) but the problem is how many can do that?

Well, Benchmarking the output is not for everyone

but its not all that hard. All you need is s soundcard with good DAC's, and RMAA , and a loopback cable

We are yet to find out whether the D2 colors the sound or not.

Guess not. compared to an iphone, not much (.5dB anyone ?)

RightMark Audio Analyzer test: comparison

Of course, with BBE it is entirely another story

RightMark Audio Analyzer test: comparison

 

[blr_p]

Guess not. compared to an iphone, not much (.5dB anyone ?)
RightMark Audio Analyzer test: comparison

From your link where does the 0.5dB for the D2 come from ?

The first test is from the line-out of the player into the line-in of the analyser as you asked for ?

Guess this is what is meant by 'external' loopback.

Of course, with BBE it is entirely another story
RightMark Audio Analyzer test: comparison

What does BBE mean and why does it matter in this context ?

 

[greenhorn]

From your link where does the 0.5dB for the D2 come from ?

from the first freq response chart. even .5dB is an exaggeration !

What does BBE mean and why does it matter in this context ?

Someone was saying how BBE sounded better etc. Its some sort of sound enhancer

 

[desiibond]

BBE is audio enhancement pack used in Cowon players

Open this link and go to EQ and sound options: Cowon iAudio D2 Review

BBE etc is clearly described there. In short, BBE does to music output what that ear pinch did to the singer in this ad : YouTube - Videocon Rock Concert 20 sec.mpg

Advice: "audiophiles" should consider skipping the next few paragraphs and continue reading further below. The audio enhancement settings on the D2 might not be the most suitable topic for purists. Cowon licensed some quite fine-sounding algorithms from Californian studio-gear manufacturer BBE Sound, Inc., best known for their Sonic Maximizer hardware, used in many professional recording studios and by lots of artists on stage. For some reason Cowon prefers to call these BBE enhancements "JetEffects."

Someone was saying how BBE sounded better etc. Its some sort of sound enhancer

Trust me on this one. Cowon D2 without BBE tuning is just okay or I may say a bit boring and it also feels like something is missing.

 

[blr_p]

from the first freq response chart. even .5dB is an exaggeration !

Ok, so you're referring to this graph then

Now if I understood you correctly, to be neutral a player should exhibit as flat a freq response as possible ?

So if we were to rank the players indicated above in terms of neutrality (most neutral to less neutral) would this be correct ?

iRiver H340, Sansa Clip > iPhone > Cowon D2 or is it iRiver H340,Sansa Clip > Cowon D2 > iPhone

Straight away we can tell the iRiver & Clip are more neutral than the other pair as they don't attenuate frequencies below 200Khz at all. Every frequency is treated equally

When you said 'less that 0.5' dB did you mean in terms of deviation from the horizontal ?

Someone was saying how BBE sounded better etc. Its some sort of sound enhancer

Can't use this at all.

BBE etc is clearly described there. In short, BBE does to music output what that ear pinch did to the singer in this ad : YouTube - Videocon Rock Concert 20 sec.mpg
Advice: "audiophiles" should consider skipping the next few paragraphs and continue reading further below. The audio enhancement settings on the D2 might not be the most suitable topic for purists. Cowon licensed some quite fine-sounding algorithms from Californian studio-gear manufacturer BBE Sound, Inc., best known for their Sonic Maximizer hardware, used in many professional recording studios and by lots of artists on stage. For some reason Cowon prefers to call these BBE enhancements "JetEffects."

BBE adds an extra level of complexity, how would you choose which amp/dac or headhones to use with your D2 in this case ?

And worse, once you did find the right combo it would never work the same on another player that did not have BBE.

I'm not disputing BBE does not sound as good as is claimed. But if you're gonna depend on addons to enhance sound it will skew your choices quite a bit.

 

[FaH33m]

I don't have much technical knowledge about testing the components and stuff but from my interpretation of the graph posted above the Sansa Clip does seem to have a near to flat response and as I said before one of the most neutral sounding players .

 

[desiibond]

not sure why but ipod touch freq response looks different.

Nokia 5800 XpressMusic review: Young as you feel - GSMArena.com. check the frequency reponse row in that table.

Apple iPhone 3G : +0.52, -1.05

ipod touch 2G: +0.04, -0.05

And iphone 3GS inherits the excellent freq. response: Apple iPhone 3GS review: Same clothes, new feel - GSMArena.com

see how flat it is!

I don't have much technical knowledge about testing the components and stuff but from my interpretation of the graph posted above the Sansa Clip does seem to have a near to flat response and as I said before one of the most neutral sounding players .

yes. Sansa clip and also Zen Stone are in the same league. literally flat sounding players

 

[blr_p]

not sure why but ipod touch freq response looks different.

Because its not for a touch but an iphone

We don't have any data for the touch as yet.

 

[greenhorn]

Cowon D2 without BBE tuning is just okay or I may say a bit boring and it also feels like something is missing.

BBE does sound nice. I've not heard its implementation on the D2, but have heard it on a few alpine stereos. improved the sound better than playing around with the EQ. But I felt BBE level 2 was over the top

Now if I understood you correctly, to be neutral a player should exhibit as flat a freq response as possible ?

So if we were to rank the players indicated above in terms of neutrality (most neutral to less neutral) would this be correct ?

iRiver H340, Sansa Clip > iPhone > Cowon D2 or is it iRiver H340,Sansa Clip > Cowon D2 > iPhone

Straight away we can tell the iRiver & Clip are more neutral than the other pair as they don't attenuate frequencies below 200Khz at all. Every frequency is treated equally

The frequency response at the lower end is a function of the load and the fact that the iphone & the D2 don't seem to have direct coupled outputs. with higher impedance headphones, it would go lower, and with a headphone amp, it would be very similar.
http://rmaa.elektrokrishna.com/Comparisons/Comparison - Cowon D2 - 12 - 48 Ohm.htm

When you said 'less that 0.5' dB did you mean in terms of deviation from the horizontal ?

the horizontal axis is a semilog frequency axis. I was talking about the vertical ( which IMO was obvious)

Can't use this at all.

Of course not. thats why I posted the after BBE graphs too. BBE obviously colours the sound.

 

[desiibond]

Because its not for a touch but an iphone

We don't have any data for the touch as yet.

here is the thing.

iphone 3G had inferior audio chip when compared to ipod touch 2G. Given ipod touch 2G's excellent audio response, the same chip/design was used in iphone 3GS and then on ipod touch 3G. This could be the reason why iphone 3GS, ipod touch 2G and ipod touch 3G have identical audio quality.

check the frequency response and audio output quality table form the links that I provided in earlier post (gsmarena).

If I remember, it's the ipod touch 2G that brought in the superior audio quality when compared to predecessor models.

ilounge on ipod touch 2G audio quality:

There is one big audio change, and that’s the iPod touch’s sound chip. Months ago, long-time iPod audio chip supplier Wolfson Micro made clear—with minimal discretion—that its chips were not going to be included in either the upcoming iPod nano or iPod touch refreshes, which were then unknown. Lo and behold, the new devices arrived, and both of them sound like the Wolfson-chipless 2007 iPod classic—they’re cleaner, with a nearly non-existent static noise floor that’s as well-suited to audiophile-grade earphones as free pack-ins. That’s really good news for those who hope to use the iPod touch with better headphones; to our ears, this version is a big step up over the prior touch.

Reviews: Apple iPod touch 2008 (8GB/16GB/32GB) + 2009 (8GB/32GB/64GB) | iLounge

PS: was running through ipod touch reviews and 90% of them didn't focus on audio quality at all. blabbering on apps screen size itunes nike+ blah blah blah. fing lunatics!

 

[blr_p]

The frequency response at the lower end is a function of the load and the fact that the iphone & the D2 don't seem to have direct coupled outputs.

What does the bolded part mean ?

with higher impedance headphones, it would go lower, and with a headphone amp, it would be very similar.

That's an interesting point -- varying the load ie headphones could affect the source's frequency response. In the case of the cowon it defnitely does so but less in the case of the clip.

Sansa Clip does seem to have a near to flat response and as I said before one of the most neutral sounding players .

The important qualifier here is provided you do not use less than 16ohm headphones

not sure why but ipod touch freq response looks different.

Now that you mention it, its not clear which iphone version is being tested in the graphs above :huh:

Nokia 5800 XpressMusic review: Young as you feel - GSMArena.com. check the frequency reponse row in that table.

Apple iPhone 3G : +0.52, -1.05
ipod touch 2G: +0.04, -0.05
And iphone 3GS inherits the excellent freq. response: Apple iPhone 3GS review: Same clothes, new feel - GSMArena.com

see how flat it is!

Article does not mention the load used for the test ?

iphone 3G had inferior audio chip when compared to ipod touch 2G. Given ipod touch 2G's excellent audio response, the same chip/design was used in iphone 3GS and then on ipod touch 3G. This could be the reason why iphone 3GS, ipod touch 2G and ipod touch 3G have identical audio quality.

yep, in comparison to the clip which has +0.08, -0.05

 

[greenhorn]

What does the bolded part mean ?

That's an interesting point -- varying the load ie headphones could affect the source's frequency response. In the case of the cowon it defnitely does so but less in the case of the clip.

Direct coupled amplifier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Capacitive coupling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You'll have to go a bit into amplifier design to understand

 

[Vandal]

^Actually GH - the mic was used to test speakers, we did a comparison review. The iPod tests were meant as an experiment, albeit one that gave me some interesting results.

What was interesting, however, was tested an MX5021 we received from Rashi P, and comparing to the the one I have, that was modded by a well known, respected gentleman who is on TE

 

[blr_p]

Direct coupled amplifier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Capacitive coupling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You'll have to go a bit into amplifier design to understand

Do you see any downsides to the DC design of the Sansa compared to the D2 ?

Cowon decided to cut out the low frequencies from its amp presumably for good reasons.

The iPod tests were meant as an experiment, albeit one that gave me some interesting results.

So you're saying you found the Touch to be neutral even tho you did not connect it in external loopback ?

 

[greenhorn]

Do you see any downsides to the DC design of the Sansa compared to the D2 ?

Cowon decided to cut out the low frequencies from its amp presumably for good reasons.

both amp designs have their pros and cons. The difference is not huge ( those not familiar with a frequency response might thin that a huge chunk of bass is missing. in reality, and with most headphones, not so much.)

Vandal, that from the graphs posted, the linearity of the D2 is not *that* bad, and certainly not significantly better than the ipod.

And your own test does not prove anything

 

[desiibond]

both amp designs have their pros and cons. The difference is not huge ( those not familiar with a frequency response might thin that a huge chunk of bass is missing. in reality, and with most headphones, not so much.)

Vandal, that from the graphs posted, the linearity of the D2 is not *that* bad, and certainly not significantly better than the ipod.

And your own test does not prove anything

Ejjactly. I have heavily used D2 and ipod touch and am pretty sure that without any enchacement, ipod touch fared a bit better. D2 sounded good but felt like something is missing. It could be the lows but I never used flat setting for D2 after initial tuning of BBE. And I always set the equalizer of ipod touch to "Flat" and that is the best way to hear music on ipod touch. their equalizer settings are total waste and not worth using. Investing on relevant earphones/headphones would make better sense.

 

[stalker]

How about just listening to the damn music?

Nope? Too childish for you folks?

:ashamed:

 

[blr_p]

And I always set the equalizer of ipod touch to "Flat" and that is the best way to hear music on ipod touch.

Shouldn't "Flat" be the way to listen on anything ?

EQs are fine for a bit but it becomes a hassle to fiddle with them all the time

And, yeah, Vandal, we're waiting for you to defend your self