Audio Do iPods have poor sound quality?

blr_p said:
Shouldn't "Flat" be the way to listen on anything ?

EQs are fine for a bit but it becomes a hassle to fiddle with them all the time :(

And, yeah, Vandal, we're waiting for you to defend your self :p

theoretically/ if you are benchmarking/if you are /wish to claim that you are an audiophile maybe.

But most of us prefer colored sound over flat. And like desiibond said, in the end, its whether the music sounds good to you that matters.

And yes I agree with him on the equalizer on the ipod sucking. In the end, if you can't listen to your music the way you like, it doesnt serve its purpose at all.

And I disagree with vandal's statement that you should not have a coloured source, and leave the job up to the headphones instead.

Coloring the music electronically costs nothing. just an eq and maybe some DSP should be all you need. On the other hand , to do that with your headphones would mean that you would set your eq to flat, and carry one set of headphones each for each equalizer preset. Or maybe headphones which have multiple listening modes ( I recall my Old Sony MDR XD200 had a passive bass boost mode which worked well, but you cant do that for all headphones) Or maybe use a standalone headphone amp for the equalizer. But why bother if the amp of the player is reasonably good enough, and the eq can be implemented in the player itself ?
 
blr_p said:
Shouldn't "Flat" be the way to listen on anything ?

EQs are fine for a bit but it becomes a hassle to fiddle with them all the time :(

And, yeah, Vandal, we're waiting for you to defend your self :p

Not many prefer flat audio output. My friends gave me an awkward look due to lack of boomy bass and some liked the clean output without heavy bass or heavy treble. It's just personal taste.
 
^ Don't start on that here, that would need a totally different thread altogether :rofl:.

In most tracks I can't find huge different between 320 and FLACs with casual listening . If I do a critical listening , yes can pick up some notes and transitions which are more clear on FLACs.In a blind test ,its almost 5-7/10 that I can make out as FLACs.Do keep in mind , when you compare a MP3 and a FLAC file , both are from the same source. Like a 320 Mp3 ripped from the same FLAC file and not two files from different sources.

A lot depends on your source , recording of the music as well. Many a times Ive noticed difference in two different 320 kbps of the same track. ;) Maybe someday when I start earning enough ,will get all originals ..
 
:lol: there is great difference in SQ if i play from a CD and rip the same Cn into 320kbps MP3. Also i' decided to use FOOBAR as my default music player. The SQ with it is way superior! Thanks anyway.

FaH33m said:
^ Don't start on that here, that would need a totally different thread altogether :rofl:.

In most tracks I can't find huge different between 320 and FLACs with casual listening . If I do a critical listening , yes can pick up some notes and transitions which are more clear on FLACs.In a blind test ,its almost 5-7/10 that I can make out as FLACs.Do keep in mind , when you compare a MP3 and a FLAC file , both are from the same source. Like a 320 Mp3 ripped from the same FLAC file and not two files from different sources.

A lot depends on your source , recording of the music as well. Many a times Ive noticed difference in two different 320 kbps of the same track. ;) Maybe someday when I start earning enough ,will get all originals ..
 
greenhorn said:
both amp designs have their pros and cons. The difference is not huge ( those not familiar with a frequency response might thin that a huge chunk of bass is missing. in reality, and with most headphones, not so much.)
For the D2, the -3dB point (half as loud) occurs at 50Hz and increases with lower frequencies, yes the difference would be quite slight even with varying loads.

Audible or not would depend on the ears & the equipment used tho i suspect when ppl talk about the differences it isn't so much the freq response at play but rather the DAC and to a certain extent their experience & background with different equipment. At least in the case of the D2.

greenhorn said:
Vandal, that from the graphs posted, the linearity of the D2 is not *that* bad, and certainly not significantly better than the ipod.
Agree its not *that* bad for the D2.

I guess until we see some data for the touch there is no way to tell if its more or less neutral than the D2.

Does anyone have any graphs for the ipod Touch, did not see any on that site greenie linked to ?

greenhorn said:
And I disagree with vandal's statement that you should not have a coloured source, and leave the job up to the headphones instead.
contrast with..

Vandal said:
I would rather have a neutral player (source) and add other components to make a bias. After all, you may use your PMP with just cans, some might use an amp and cans. If you start with a warm player (for example) and add a warm amp and then warm cans - you get the picture?

or what you end up with after adding the amp & headphones if the source isn't neutral, a total mess :)

greenhorn said:
Coloring the music electronically costs nothing. just an eq and maybe some DSP should be all you need. On the other hand , to do that with your headphones would mean that you would set your eq to flat, and carry one set of headphones each for each equalizer preset.
True, but how do you select a matching amp + speakers or headphones if you start from a coloured source ?

Reviewers describing the headphones, speakers, DACs from a neutral source would not work as your frame of reference differs from theirs. The graphs for BBE are so all over the place i'm not sure where exactly you could start to improve the sound and whether the improvement would indeed be tangible or not.
greenhorn said:
theoretically/ if you are benchmarking/if you are /wish to claim that you are an audiophile maybe.
How about one more option ie choosing equipment to go with the player, if thats done form a neutral reference then you have your picks. But if then you start to colour the sound, will your choices still be valid ?

This is the conundrum :)

greenhorn said:
But most of us prefer colored sound over flat. And like desiibond said, in the end, its whether the music sounds good to you that matters.
If you like coloured sound then does it any make sense to decide whether you prefer warm vs cold or harsh vs refined and choose equipment that would deliver such ?

What could end up happening is you pick your phones and then fiddle with EQ's to make it sound right, this may work better for some genres over others. But you will constantly be fiddling about witht the EQs.

So for years now i've been listening with a flat EQ. I don't have a super setup, AC97, onboard hooked up to a stereo amp + floorstanders. The idea being whatever EQ's were properly applied at the recording studio and what I'm hearing is just how the artists intended it to be. Could i have better sound ? sure, a much overdue soundcard would make a world of diference or even a DAC. But now all i need to do is see how ppl describe the sound of those units and how much of a consensus there is and then I have a farly good chance of getting what I want :)
 
blr_p said:
or what you end up with after adding the amp & headphones if the source isn't neutral, a total mess :)

True, but how do you select a matching amp + speakers or headphones if you start from a coloured source ?

How about one more option ie choosing equipment to go with the player, if thats done form a neutral reference then you have your picks. But if then you start to colour the sound, will your choices still be valid ?

This is the conundrum :)

I think you're missing the point. apart from headphones, amps & players are reasonably neutral ( its fairly easy to make electronics with fairly flat frequency response. If there is coloring, i would assume that its intentional, which is rare. Usually for amps/players, its usually in terms of warm*er*. even if you pair a warm amp and a warm player, it still wouldnt be catastrophically warm. probably still borderline warm.

Benchmarking covers the process of choosing headphones. I think of using a flat eq as a means to an end. If you think of it as an end in itself, thats your choice.

If you like coloured sound then does it any make sense to decide whether you prefer warm vs cold or harsh vs refined and choose equipment that would deliver such ?

I dont see a problem. Like a said again, the speakers colour the sound the most. I would worry about them the most :)

What could end up happening is you pick your phones and then fiddle with EQ's to make it sound right, this may work better for some genres over others. But you will constantly be fiddling about witht the EQs.

Yup. thats how i like listening. Once upon a time i had izotope ozone setup with individual presets for each track ( and the plugin supported automatic preset support for each track). You should see me driving with one hand on the stereo. its almost scary :p

Sometimes you might be able to decide better than the recording engineer about how your music should sound.

The typical Hi Fi recording might be oriented in terms of correspondingly high quality eqpt, and a little help might be needed to sound good on your onboard.

Correspondingly, local stuff needs to be tuned down *hugely* to save your ears :p
 
greenhorn said:
I think you're missing the point. apart from headphones, amps & players are reasonably neutral ( its fairly easy to make electronics with fairly flat frequency response. If there is coloring, i would assume that its intentional, which is rare. Usually for amps/players, its usually in terms of warm*er*. even if you pair a warm amp and a warm player, it still wouldnt be catastrophically warm. probably still borderline warm.
Ok, so the amp is not very signficant here, whatever the source, it will just do its job.

greenhorn said:
If you think of it as an end in itself, thats your choice.
See below.

greenhorn said:
I dont see a problem. Like a said again, the speakers colour the sound the most. I would worry about them the most :)
Right, so lets consider that then.

D2 + BBE + what speaker or headphone ? Its just blind testing isn't it. You might find a speaker or headphone that works but it would be luck and it would be harder to improve on it.

Instead, if you go D2 (line out) might it be easier to make the choice ? Given you've shown that the D2 is fairly neutral .

The problem arises if you want to have BBE after. Your choice of speaker or headphone might sound off ? or not ?

This is my rationale to stick to flat.

greenhorn said:
Yup. thats how i like listening. Once upon a time i had izotope ozone setup with individual presets for each track ( and the plugin supported automatic preset support for each track). You should see me driving with one hand on the stereo. its almost scary :p
Thing is what happens to those settings you so carefully spent time doing when you upgrade your speakers or heaphones ?

I'm aware of your plugin experiements as i read your two guides :)

I recall your distaste for the DFX enhancer. I played with that plugin long ago when my mp3s were 128-160 kbs, made a big difference, thing is you could get tired of that kind of sound after a while. After I realised with better encoded material there was no need for DFX at all and its been that way ever since.

greenhorn said:
Sometimes you might be able to decide better than the recording engineer about how your music should sound. Correspondingly, local stuff needs to be tuned down *hugely* to save your ears :p
Lol, this is an exceptional case when the material isn't properly done in the first place. Yeah, you could improve things upto a certain point.
 
i went to croma yesterday and saw this morar 777 player there. i gave it a casual listening and found it to be good . i compared it with the ipod touch, cowon s9 and samsung p3. cowon s9 was just not good enough to drive my 60 ohm koss ksc75. the ipod and samsung p3 were decently loud but the morar was the loudest. Plus it had the largest and the best screen.

now during casual listening the SQ was up there with the best if not the best. I will go again and this time listen to it seriously. anyone here has any idea about this player?

on the website it says its a company based in gujarat.

Highest resolution Morar MP5 media player
 
^ Looks pretty good ! How was the UI , song browsing etc ?

I feel it could be one of those decent OEM-Chinese players like Telcast etc re-branded by the company and sold in India + overseas. Also the site looks quite professional for an Indian company :p. Even the warranty terms and no. of service centers is great.

Morar provides pick up and return shipment of the serviced unit.

Looks like , I need to head to Croma and check these out . Did Croma have the other players listen on the site by the company as well ?
 
blr_p said:
D2 + BBE + what speaker or headphone ? Its just blind testing isn't it. You might find a speaker or headphone that works but it would be luck and it would be harder to improve on it.

Instead, if you go D2 (line out) might it be easier to make the choice ? Given you've shown that the D2 is fairly neutral .

The problem arises if you want to have BBE after. Your choice of speaker or headphone might sound off ? or not ?

This is my rationale to stick to flat.
The answer in this case is to go with neutral headphones & speakers.

The amp's mostly neutral so that gives all the freedom to do what you want with the source :)
 
FaH33m said:
^ Looks pretty good ! How was the UI , song browsing etc ?

I feel it could be one of those decent OEM-Chinese players like Telcast etc re-branded by the company and sold in India + overseas. Also the site looks quite professional for an Indian company :p. Even the warranty terms and no. of service centers is great.

Looks like , I need to head to Croma and check these out . Did Croma have the other players listen on the site by the company as well ?

The UI . Its a non touchscreen player. It is ok. No fancy wheel or any other sensor for scrolling through the playlist. Simple button for going up and down.
It might take a little getting used to but i was quite ok with it after 5 min of usage so i think it wont be that much of a problem.
They dint have any other players . Only this model was available . The screen is brilliant. The eq are not too bad though i couldnt find manual eq anywhere.
I will need to go back and check again. Ohh i also read it has an fm transmitter which will be gr8 for my car audio because i dont have and aux in for it.

there are quite a few mp3 players on the site mp4nation.net .
The sflo2 ive heard good things about. Does anyone have an idea of the other players on that site. I need to buy an mp3 player soon and i really dont know which one to go for
 
Sorry to bump an ancient thread :ashamed:

NwAvGuy's measurements are very interesting - NwAvGuy: Sansa Clip+ Measured and NwAvGuy: Cowon i9 Review.

iPods are not as bad as is made out to be and Cowons are not 'better' as they are made out to be. Clip+ is however as they say it is :hap2:.

Ever since I began using Rockbox EQ on Clip+, I've found lesser and lesser need for S9's EQ. And iPod Touch now has eQu, a $3 app that brings saving limitless EQ presets, a good 'open' EQ band (much like the very good Parametric EQ on Rockbox) except that I need some training moving the chart line to where I exactly want them. Compared to both, Cowon's offering of only 4 Custom EQ settings feels a lot less.
 
esanthosh said:
Sorry to bump an ancient thread :ashamed:

NwAvGuy's measurements are very interesting - NwAvGuy: Sansa Clip+ Measured and NwAvGuy: Cowon i9 Review.

iPods are not as bad as is made out to be and Cowons are not 'better' as they are made out to be. Clip+ is however as they say it is :hap2:.

Ever since I began using Rockbox EQ on Clip+, I've found lesser and lesser need for S9's EQ. And iPod Touch now has eQu, a $3 app that brings saving limitless EQ presets, a good 'open' EQ band (much like the very good Parametric EQ on Rockbox) except that I need some training moving the chart line to where I exactly want them. Compared to both, Cowon's offering of only 4 Custom EQ settings feels a lot less.
Very correctly pointed out. IPods are not bad as they are made out to be. They are style statement and have great ergonomics and sound good too (with a price tag). However the biggest problem with Apple is that they want you to be slave of their technology, buy their proprietary software. They always sell product from their stores and force you to buy them and monopolize the market. They are like Microsoft of the Media Players! The other problem with Apple is... (its gonna hurt lot of people) before you buy them apple is out with another latest model! Look how often have they changed the Media Players. After the warranty is over, its a stone if your player ever goes bad! Cowon are somewhat hyped.
 
The best thing about ipods/shuffles is that they usually have a veyr long life. many friends of mine have been using same player since 5+ years. Sansa Clip etc are newer players (afaik) we don't know the average life cycle of these products. i feel day/night difference in sound quality of shuffle and clip+. Clip is way superior.
 
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