Do you think Modi can bring change if given chance?

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I have. And you know this may sound silly, but I've actually found some of their concepts more modern and practical than some seemingly liberal organisations and movements. The Left that dominates the 'intellectual space' calls their idea of India as Hindu majoritarianism regressive and communal. Which is what a lot of us living in the Republic of South Delhi or South Mumbai or Electronic City believe is true. They are right-wing, I'll acknowledge that. But that's not the same as being fascists or Nazis or Hindu equivalents of Jihadis.

I'd like to ask you, what's you source of info of RSS ideology? Please do not quote articles, editorials or op-eds in newspapers. But if you do, please link to those articles that indicate proven cases of RSS misdeeds. And no Nathuram Godse wasn't RSS.

Well, why go to external sources, lets quote some of the stalwarts of RSS themselves.

Let's start with Veer Savarkar, the founder of RSS (edit: Hindutva, which is the main tenet of RSS):
"We may find many passages in Manusmriti which can provide valuable guidance to today's problems. but we should accept them because they are beneficial today, not because they were found in an ancient text and certainly not because manu's orders are not to be transgressed. Whatever we find in Manusmriti to be harmful or ridiculous today should not be followed, but that does not make Manusmriti harmful or ridiculous. On the contrary, when compares Manusmriti with codes of other societies such as Babylon, Egypt, Hebrews, Greece and Roman, Manusmriti stands high above the rest. It deserves our respect for that" (http://www.savarkar.org/en/rationalism/q)

“Compassion for all living beings is a principle to be practised to the extent it leads to material human benefit. Beyond that, a human being is not guilty of violence if he has to commit it for the benefit of humankind! That guilt lies with nature, with creation, if at all it is god who has willed it!” (http://www.savarkar.org/.../ethics-truth-nonviolence)

"I shall content myself at present by stating that Hindudom is bound and marked out as a people and a nation by themselves not by the only tie of a common Holyland in which their religion took birth but by the ties of a common culture, a common language, a common history and essentially of a common fatherland as well.

Just as by the first constituent of Hindutva, the possession if a common Holyland-the Indian Mahommedans, Jews, Christians, Parsees, etc. are excluded from claiming themselves as Hindus which in reality also they do not,-in spite of their recognising Hindusthan as their fatherland, so also on the other hand the second constituent of the definition that of possessing a common fatherland exclude the Japanese, the Chinese and others from the Hindu fold in spite of the fact of their having a Holyland in common with us." (http://www.savarkar.org/content/pdfs/en/hindu-rashtra-darshan-en-v002.pdf.)

The ideologies' main tenets are the intermingling of state and religion, where the latter dictates the former; a disaster in the making. For example, consider any country where religion and its teachings dictate everyday life.

Next gems of their ideology, by the successors of course.
"The non-Hindu people of Hindustan must either adopt Hindu culture and language, must learn and respect and hold in reverence the Hindu religion, must entertain no idea but of those of glorification of the Hindu race and culture ... In a word they must cease to be foreigners, or may stay in the country, wholly subordinated to the Hindu nation, claiming nothing, deserving no privileges, far less any preferential treatment—not even citizens' rights."

"To keep up the purity of the Race and its culture, Germany shocked the world by her purging the country of the semitic Races — the Jews. Race pride at its highest has been manifested here. Germany has also shown how well nigh impossible it is for Races and cultures, having differences going to the root, to be assimilated into one united whole, a good lesson for us in Hindusthan to learn and profit by.

Ever since that evil day, when Moslems first landed in Hindustan, right up to the present moment, the Hindu Nation has been gallantly fighting on to take on these despoilers. The Race Spirit has been awakening.

The Christians committed all sorts of atrocities on the Jews by giving them the label “Killers of Christ”. Hitler is not an exception but a culmination of the 2000-year long oppression of the Jews by the Christians

- M.S. Gowalkar, second supreme chief of RSS, in his book titled We, or Our Nation defined (1938). He was the supreme chief of RSS till he died in 1973.
Later, he went on to defend Jews when they created the state of Israel, as it gelled well with his and his organization's own religious nationalist stance. Quite a contradictory stance considering the earlier praise for Hitler.
"The Jews had maintained their race, religion, culture and language; and all they wanted was their natural territory to complete their Nationality"
Also, some people have it in their head that the RSS stands for the nation, and not for their own notion of a nation. Here's an excerpt from Keshav Baliram Hegewar's biography, published by RSS themselves. He was actually felicitated with a postage stamp when Atal Bihari Vajpayee became the prime minister.
"Patriotism is not only going to prison. It is not correct to be carried away by such superficial patriotism. He used to urge that while remaining prepared to die of the country when the time came, it is very necessary to have a desire to live while organizing for the freedom of the country". It is indeed a pity that 'fools' like Bhagat Singh, Rajguru, Sukhdev, Ashfaqullah, Chandrashekhar Azad did not come into contact with this 'great patriotic thinker'. If they had the great opportunity to meet him, these martyrs could have been saved from giving their lives for "superficial patriotism".
Yep, that were the views of the great RSS pracharak, who many BJP leaders even look up to today.

Again, in 1942, Gowalkar's speech:
"Sangh does not want to blame anybody else for the present degraded state of the society. When the people start blaming others, then there is weakness in them. It is futile to blame the strong for the injustice done to the weak... Sangh does not want to waste its invaluable time in abusing or criticizing other. If we know that large fish eat the smaller ones, it is outright madness to blame the big fish. Law of nature whether good or bad is true."
Again, according to their ideology, if you are big and powerful (read majority), then you can do whatever you want with the weak ones (minority/lower-castes). It is only recently that Sangh has diverted their attention strictly towards people of other religion, whereas before they even considered the untouchables below consideration; some even do it now, but in hidden sight.

Also, you've declared Nathuram Godse wasn't a part of RSS, when there is clear evidence that he was a member, or at least an ex-member. His brother Gopal Godse himself said so in an interview:
“All the [Godse] brothers were in the RSS. Nathuram, Dattatreya, myself and Govind. You can say we grew up in the RSS rather than in our home. It was like a family to us. Nathuram had become a baudhik karyavah [intellectual worker] in the RSS. He has said in his statement that he left the RSS. He said it because [Madhav Sadashiv] Golwalkar and the RSS were in a lot of trouble after the murder of Gandhi. But he did not leave the RSS.” [See issue of 28 January 1994] - http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/southasia/History/Hindu_Rashtra/nathuram.html

Regarding misdeeds, are you forgetting Babri Masjid demolition, which sprung a wave of extremism in India? It was good for this extremist organization though, as it gave them a reason to continue with their bigotry. It also bought them to national limelight, and their party too, espousing religious fervour of such magnitudes that it was never seen in the country since Independence.

Also, RSS doesn't work alone in its nation-building endeavours. Its close associates such as Vishwa Hindu Parishad, Bajrang Dal, Hindu Jagaran Sammukhya, and a lot of many other smaller proxies carry out their dirty work.

Here's the role of RSS and their pracharaks in Malegaon blasts - with a confession from the perpetrator himself: Tehelka report, TOI report

Are you also forgetting the role of Maya Kodani (former Cabinet Minister for Women and Child Development Gujarat and was also the Bhartiya Janata Party MLA from Naroda at that time) in the 2002 pogrom by leading the mob? Then there is also Babu Bajrangi, a Bajrang Dal activist, who was also convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment along with her and 30 other persons.

Here is a report on RSS worker making a bomb, but it accidentally going off.

Then the role of state ministry in denying justice, and even going as far as to obstruct it. Human Rights Watch report about the Gujarat riots.

And then there's Amit Shah, the home minister of Gujarat who was arrested in a fake encounter case, and was forced to resign and seek refuge elsewhere, else he might interfere with the investigations like he did before. He is now plotting other shenanigans in Uttar Pradesh with the other politicians there.
 
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The ideologies main tenets are the intermingling of state and religion, where the latter dictates the former; a disaster in the making. For example, consider any country where religion and its teachings dictate everyday life.
I'll take this one because its your general thrust. How feasible do you think such an idea is today ? To create some religious utopia where everything will be just great.

Its an aspiration but what are the chances of it happening. Those words were said at a different time before the country was even independent. A lot has changed since.

Don't forget the constitution is a formidable barrier to overcome. So long as the rule of law is followed we are ok, start cutting corners then things get hairy. How easy will that be given the pro-active judiciary.

Had been following Egypt as i could see some general parallels between the MB & the RSS. Suffice to say the MB had an incredibly difficult time trying to get things done because the bureaucrats just refused to co-operate. Then there was the judiciary, another formidable institution. And when things got too much the army stepped in and put an end to it. The nationalists broke with the pro-religious types.
 
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+1 to the above. Today is very different from 1942. It is not possible for any organization to pull this off for the different reason that @blr_p gave. Hell, they have not managed to do so in the last 70 years.

You know @blkrb0t, I always like the fact that you present your arguments with so much of research behind it but I am really baffled by the line of reasoning you are taking here.

First, BJP has come to power so many times. It is weird that you are trying to reason that if they manage to win the elections this time, we will become a fascist nation with no rights for minorities and be plunged into doom.

Another weird track I have noticed in your arguments is that you defend Congress by saying that they are selectively communal, so that's alright. What the hell does that mean? At least with RSS, it is clear that those idiots should never be in decision-making positions. With the Congress, we never know when the chameleon will change its colors. They have taken a U-turn on so many issues, without even consulting their allies sometimes, they are not at all dependable.

Like I said earlier, both parties have their share of crooks, but I really want someone other than the Congress. At least the BJP will be on the back foot for a few years. Congress for a 3rd term means emboldening their corrupt leaders to pull off bigger stunts in the future.
 
Sir, I’ll begin by thanking you for pointing out Veer Savarkar’s site to me. Somehow I’ve missed it during my net-travails. Admirable too is that you took time out to present a compendium to highlight the bigotry of RSS. Seems the cause is close to your heart. :)

Well, why go to external sources, lets quote some of the stalwarts of RSS themselves.
Let's start with Veer Sarvarkar, the founder of RSS:
Overlooking your snide remark, let’s start with getting the first fact right. And that is Savarkar wasn’t even the founder of RSS. So much for your quoting of stalwarts of RSS! Or possibly you typed Hedgewar, but the darned auto-corrector you know, turned it to Savarkar. So now I hear you say what’s the difference. Birds of feather and all that. Okay, so let us discuss Savarkar since you took the pains to quote him.

"We may find many passages in Manusmriti which can provide valuable guidance to today's problems. but we should accept them because they are beneficial today, not because they were found in an ancient text and certainly not because manu's orders are not to be transgressed. Whatever we find in Manusmriti to be harmful or ridiculous today should not be followed, but that does not make Manusmriti harmful or ridiculous. ..snip.."
Ahh, the usual narrative… If the agenda is to diss the Hindu culture, just point out Manusmriti. Use it to show Hinduism as regressive, misogynist, medieval (well, ancient). Nevermind the Vedas, the Upanishads, the epics, Yoga, Ayurveda, sciences, language. Manusmriti is BAD; it’s a Hindu treatise; hence Hindu culture is bad; QED. But then look here, what is Savarkar saying… “Whatever we find in Manusmriti to be harmful or ridiculous today should not be followed”. How can you use this to show that Savarkar is a foolish ideologue. In fact, what you’ve quoted above shows he’s hugely sensible in pointing out that out-dated ideas need to be discarded.

“Compassion for all living beings is a principle to be practised to the extent it leads to material human benefit. Beyond that, a human being is not guilty of violence if he has to commit it for the benefit of humankind! That guilt lies with nature, with creation, if at all it is god who has willed it!”
What's wrong here? Isn't this what armed forces do all over the world.


I shall content myself at present by stating that Hindudom is bound and marked out as a people and a nation by themselves not by the only tie of a common Holyland in which their religion took birth but by the ties of a common culture, a common language, a common history and essentially of a common fatherland as well. Just as by the first constituent of Hindutva, the possession if a common Holyland-the Indian Mahommedans, Jews, Christians, Parsees, etc. are excluded from claiming themselves as Hindus which in reality also they do not,-in spite of their recognising Hindusthan as their fatherland, so also on the other hand the second constituent of the definition that of possessing a common fatherland exclude the Japanese, the Chinese and others from the Hindu fold in spite of the fact of their having a Holyland in common with us.
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The ideologies' main tenets are the intermingling of state and religion, where the latter dictates the former; a disaster in the making. For example, consider any country where religion and its teachings dictate everyday life.
Umm, where in the above quote does it exactly say that religion should dictate the state. State-religion relationship, that’s not even the discourse in the above extract by far. What he’s saying is that although we may be born in different religions, we are primarily Hindus by way of our culture and heritage. Which again makes a lot of sense if you consider that Savarkar was an atheist and as he has written above, Hinduism is more a way of life, a culture than a religion - Hindutva. He later says, even though non-Hindus born and brought up in India are basically Hindus (culturally) and that Japanese, Chinese even though Buddhist (which he considered a subset of Hinduism) aren’t Hindus culturally. Point is that the nation is separate from the religion. Exactly opposite of your interpretation.
 
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So now after your gems of your facts and interpretation, lets talk about what you write ’gems of the successor’s ideology’ - M.S. Golwalkar. Please read this essay by Koenraad Elst. http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/fascism/Nazi6GurujiWithdrawn.html

Since you’ve been so liberal with quotes from across the net, please allow me that liberty too…
For decades and until recently, the single most-quoted Hindutva statement was the following one from Golwalkar's We written when he was 32: "The non-Hindu peoples in Hindusthan must either adopt the Hindu culture and language (*) they must not only give up their attitude of intolerance and ungratefulness towards this land and its age-long traditions but must also cultivate the positive attitude of love and devotion instead - in one word, must cease to be foreigners, or may stay in the country, wholly subordinated to the Hindu nation, claiming nothing, deserving no privileges, far less any preferential treatment, not even citizen's rights." (1939:47-48, 1947:55-56)

The Marxists who usually do the quoting, pretend (and given their permanent state of hysteria when dealing with Hindu nationalism, possibly also believe) that this is a warrant for genocide, a "holocaust of the minorities". Yet the text is quite explicit: far from wanting to kill or expel Muslims and Christians, Golwalkar even agrees to let them "stay in the country" and live safely in his Hindu Rashtra, only without citizen's rights. I don't find that acceptable, and I assume the RSS has now sent the message that it rejects this option too, but it is at any rate totally different from genocide or ethnic cleansing.

Instead, what he proposed for the non-Hindus is exactly the condition of "dhimmitude" that Islamic states in peacetime have always imposed on the non-Muslims. Even today, Saudi Arabia goes considerably farther in practising discrimination against the minorities than Golwalkar did in preaching it, e.g. it doesn't allow any form of non-Muslim worship on its territory whereas Guruji did not propose to forbid Christian and Islamic cultic practice. Dhimmitude, an imposed third-class status for minorities, is bad enough, but those who denounce it in Golwalkar's model would have more credibility if they also denounced it in the Islamic states, where it is not somebody's private little idea on the yellowed pages of a juvenile exercise in political thought, but actual practice.
[DOUBLEPOST=1382383166][/DOUBLEPOST]Now about RSS, Nathuram Godse and Gandhiji’s assassination. What luck that in the past few days these happened…

Read this:
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/the-forgotten-promise-of-1949/article5211026.ece

Then read this:
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/lifting-of-ban-on-rss-was-unconditional/article5237922.ece

And if you are in the mood, this:
http://centreright.in/2013/10/rss-written-constitution-a-response-to-vidya-subramaniam/

Oh, and just today, Siddharth Varadarajan resigned from The Hindu - newspaper I mean, not the culture ;-). Apparently N Ram who owns the newspaper says Varadarajan didn’t know the difference between news and news-editorials and was biased when it came to writing on who else but… Narendra Modi!
 
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Regarding misdeeds, are you forgetting Babri Masjid demolition, which sprung a wave of extremism in India? It was good for this extremist organization though, as it gave them a reason to continue with their bigotry. It also bought them to national limelight, and their party too, espousing religious fervour of such magnitudes that it was never seen in the country since Independence.
One thing I don’t understand is why people commence such narratives from independence. Its as if Moplah Rebellion, for example, didn’t happen. Or that there was never Dhimmi or Jizya. Religion, fanaticism, bigotry is much older, since man invented religion. And you are naïve in thinking that Babri Masjid demolition was root cause of extremism. There have been riots (and pogroms) before that in India. But maybe you are presenting a causal theory. In which case Godhra caused 2002, no?

Getting late, so will keep it short now…

Sadhvi Pragya, Aseemanand and RSS pracharaks have not been named in NIA’s chargesheet of the Malegaon blasts. The Sadhvi is in jail for 5 years and has not been chargesheeted yet. Much like other "innocent" terror undertrials, don't you think so?

And about fake encounters, please wake up and smell the coffee.

The two biggest reasons why insurgency was curbed in Punjab were encounters and extra-judicial stuff. An anecdote from during that time… A militant kidnapped some policeman’s relative and presented some demands for his release. So the police picks up the militant’s small kid from his village and threatens him with consequences if didn’t free the relative unharmed. The relative returns safe. What can be more unethical or extra-judicial than a government agency picking up a kid as a bargaining chip.

Mumbai Police and the underworld - encounter specialists.

You know its funny that Gujarat is 17th on the list of fake encounters state-wise, yet you would like us to think its police is lawless because of the bigoted home minister.
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...ed-states-narendra-modi-gujarat/1/286891.html

One final request sir. When you’re discussing anything on the net and especially politics, please tone down the sarcasm and the scorn. I began the reply hoping for a reasonable discussion, but as I went through your response, the snide remarks riled me up big. So maybe even I've been a bit disparaging at times. Which is not how I'd like to do these things. Lets be civil, even if we disagree. Nuff said.
 
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Another reason why the Govt. needs to change. At the brink of elections, they have suddenly remembered the Communal Violence Bill lying in limbo since 2005. Also, them being "selectively communal" ensures a provision that identifies the victim of a communal violence as being the member of a linguistic or religious minority in a state. So, in effect, a victim of communal violence will be first classified to see whether he is part of the majority or minority. Very good. That's what we need now. Further division. Effing morons.
 
I guess this video sums the discussion in this thread up perfectly :)

Warning: Don't put it on speakers with people around.

 
I guess this video sums the discussion in this thread up perfectly :)
I guess you didn't see post #148 above.

At the brink of elections, they have suddenly remembered the Communal Violence Bill
From: http://nac.nic.in/pdf/pctvb.pdf :
Chapter 1. 1.(2). It extends to the whole of India excluding the State of Jammu and Kashmir.
Haha! So it seems no minorities in Kashmir. Or no history of communal violence there till date to warrant such a law.
 
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You guys in maha need a change. You have a serious case of incumbent fatigue, since 1999 (!)

My state changed parties three times, in that period.
well people do not go out to vote in maha.

have seen many a people plan for a day off to mahabaleshwar/alibaug knowing its a day off for them. :(
 
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well people do not go out to vote in maha.

have seen many a people plan for a day off to mahabaleshwar/alibaug knowing its a day off for them. :(

Please add an ineffective opposition to that list as well!
Ineffective government and ineffective opposition. No wonder we've been laggards for a while now!
 
You guys in maha need a change. You have a serious case of incumbent fatigue, since 1999 (!)

My state changed parties three times, in that period.

I've been here since 2005 and all I can see is loads of money being pumped into cities like Pune to make sure that it looks attractive from the surface without any consideration of the long-term impact of these decisions. Whereas thousands of farmers are committing suicide every year, there are people like Ajit Pawar who make crass comments like "should I piss to fill up dams?" and "more power cuts lead to more children as there is nothing left to do". Amazingly, this is the same person who has been accused of being involved in scam worth Rs. 32000 crores when he was the Irrigation minister.
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-irrigation-scam-bjp-carries-evidence-in-bullock-cart-1906777

There is very less hope here. NCP is too powerful to let anything affect them.

On a side-note, there was this unintentionally entertaining interview of Raj Thackery with Arnab Goswami. Though I've not a fan of his hard-line politics, but he made a few good points. And boy, he is really pissed off with R.R. Patil. :p
 
well people do not go out to vote in maha.

have seen many a people plan for a day off to mahabaleshwar/alibaug knowing its a day off for them. :(
Voter turnout for 2009 in maha - 59.5%
Voter turnout for 2008 in karnataka - 64.34%

That's not a big difference in turnout.[DOUBLEPOST=1382454238][/DOUBLEPOST]
There is very less hope here. NCP is too powerful to let anything affect them.
They've got the best patronage network.

No wonder there is such cynicism.
 
Figures vary by constituency, i quoted the state average from the election commision's stats reports. Recall reading it was something like 43% in bombay, guess what in bangalore it was only little bit more. But the state average is higher. The capital isn't representative.

So would not say turnout is bad but rather who you guys keep voting for. Is the opposition really that useless.

Remember, the bongs put up with 37 years of commie rule before they they decided a change was needed.
 
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