Electricity prices

[guest_999]

Why? Isn't the telecom sector delivering prices that conform to GDP per capita?

Certainly more affordable than earlier.

Whereas you could argue that energy costs are not.

Ppl with such low GDP per capita are supposed to get cheaper/better public healthcare/infra/education etc first than cheaper 1GB per day data plans to watch tiktok & youtube all day. It is called putting the cart before the horse.

If there was more competition in the power sector then prices will reflect the increased competition.

In Delhi this is a reality. I thought it was the case in Bombay too. So i don't get why @6pack doesn't get the benefit?

Read this multi page old pdf (https://old.ccs.in/internship_papers/2002/16.pdf ) which still holds true in many areas to know the facts of "Delhi electricity board privatisation". To keep it short, the power sector in Delhi is not fully privatised & the low electricity prices ppl get there mainly comes from govt money paid to the companies which eventually leads to this situation:

Delhi projected to slip into revenue deficit for first time in 31 years | Delhi News - Times of India

Delhi's finances are predicted to fall into deficit for the first time by the end of FY25, with expenses surpassing revenue. Earnings are projected to

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

The question is why does gdp per capita matter. If it did then showoff section on this board would be about showing what fruits and vegetables you could afford today.

It matters if you want to launch some fcmg product and looking for opportunities. Not when speaking about the aggregate national level.

And there is the clue for you.

Aggregrate not disaggregate.

You are the one being clueless here if you think gdp per capita does not matter. Amusing thing is that all the govts in India so far want nothing more than increase this gdp per capita but go for the consolation prize of gdp as it is easier to achieve & sell to public not to mention gdp increase also increase gdp per capita. Btw, you can forget about India becoming developed nation by 2047 if it doesn't increase its GDP per capita to high levels because that's one of the basic requirements of being eligible to be called a developed nation. @variablevector already explained about "nominal vs real gdp".

 

[6pack]

If there was more competition in the power sector then prices will reflect the increased competition.

In Delhi this is a reality. I thought it was the case in Bombay too. So i don't get why @6pack doesn't get the benefit?

Because I don't live in Bombay. There are 3-4 electricity providers in Mumbai city only. After that, the rest of the state is under control of the govt owned MSEDCL/Mahavitaran company which is like a monopoly. I remember some decades ago someone went to court to bring competition but the govt successfully struck it down saying there will be price hikes etc. Govt did not want competition because they give free electricity to farmers who grow sugarcane for ministers who own sugar factories. Lot of corruption in the system from every political party. Everyone has their hands dirty and they are just making the people pay for their mismanagement of the state. Plus there was some Enron economical disaster which increased prices even more. Maharashtra (except Mumbai) already had such higher rates than rest of India even 30 years back.

I'm of the mindset if we're going to consume it the same way as "developed" nations, we're going to have to pay for it in the same way as they do.

Meaning, I don't expect to pay less just because the rupee is weaker than the dollar, that entire point is irrelevant.

Then we should be getting the same salary as these developed countries too. I don't see you mention anything about purchasing parity. If they get average of US $5.6K a month that means Indians should also get a similar salary like them. But it is not so.

If your bills are higher than the people in these "developed" nations, it's simply because you're consuming more.

What? Average American household consumes 30 KWH per day. Average Indian household consume 3 Kwh a day. How exactly are we consuming more than them?

 

[rsaeon]

If your bills are higher than the people in these "developed" nations, it's simply because you're consuming more.

What? Average American household consumes 30 KWH per day. Average Indian household consume 3 Kwh a day. How exactly are we consuming more than them?

If

If your bills are higher than other "developed" countries, while our per-unit pricing is lower than those of "developed" countries then simple maths says you're just consuming more.

Remember this whole tangent started with your assumption that —

I was just watching a live yt stream of a japanese youtuber

...

i guess if we had such a setup our electric bill would be in lacs per month

...

Our govt is the biggest thief here.

— Electricity in other countries is cheaper than in India.

Which is untrue. But since it's an anti-government sentiment, it sprouted an entirely separate thread (which I love, of course, ha).

We have our own country-specific perks when it comes to general life-related things, and it is not related to what government is currently in power.

(never mind that Youtubers print their own money through their various revenue sources and can afford to do whatever they want regarding their finances)

Then we should be getting the same salary as these developed countries too. I don't see you mention anything about purchasing parity. If they get average of US $5.6K a month that means Indians should also get a similar salary like them. But it is not so.

We have purchasing parity when it comes to natural resources (whether human or inanimate). Electricity is not a natural resource. For example, coal is orders of magnitude cheaper here. Not sure if it's natural or man-made, though.

We don't pay "developed" country prices for bottled water. Or even internet access, though there's nothing natural about that. Or mobile phone plans. Do we even pay taxes/bills for sewage? That's a thing you have to pay for in other countries. Your poop costs you money.

We don't pay the same for garbage disposal. Or Insurance. Or municipal taxes or service-related tasks (maids, plumbers, carpenters, mechanics, couriers — labour in general, skilled or unskilled).

I don't even have to say anything about medicines, with India being branded as "The World's Pharmacy."

Anecdotally, I send out kilograms of medicines every few months to relatives earning six figures in those "developed" countries. Can you imagine the mental gymnastics of such people? They're thinking, "I'm living in the richest, most powerful country in the world and I'm earning more than all of my ancestors combined, but I need to get my life-saving medicine sent to me from a far-off country that's worse off in every conceivable way."

I put quotes around the word "developed" because it's a farce. Every country, "developed" or not, has a compromise on something. You being happy in that country just depends on whether that compromise aligns with what you yourself is willing to compromise on.

 

[guest_999]

For example, coal is orders of magnitude cheaper here. Not sure if it's natural or man-made, though.

Coal & petroleum are natural resources.

Anecdotally, I send out kilograms of medicines every few months to relatives earning six figures in those "developed" countries.

I am guessing that is mainly US & maybe UK because drug prices especially in US are insanely expensive.

 

[6pack]

Do we even pay taxes/bills for sewage?

Yes. Look at the yearly municipal tax bill. They charge money for education, tree planting, garbage disposal, fire engines, etc. If the septic tank in your society or house gets full and you want to empty it, you need to get the municipality to send a sump tanker to suck up the muck in the septic tank. They charge money for that. Probably around 2k to 3k per tanker.

 

[guest_999]

Yes. Look at the yearly municipal tax bill. They charge money for education, tree planting, garbage disposal, fire engines, etc. If the septic tank in your society or house gets full and you want to empty it, you need to get the municipality to send a sump tanker to suck up the muck in the septic tank. They charge money for that. Probably around 2k to 3k per tanker.

Most likely, less than 5% of the population pays that bill & even that is a liberal guess.

 

[TEUser2K1]

India is a blessed country with enough arable land and natural resources.
If our public and leaders were few percentage less corrupt, well behaved and start thinking better, country and people would've been in great condition.
Population is an asset, only that our leaders don't know how to optimally utilize that asset for benefit of the nation and thus it's people.

Anyways, KSEB bill details (billed every 2 months) at our place (1no. 1.5ton 4*rated A/c rarely used, daily pump 750ltr+ water using 1HP(?) motor, 2-3 bldc fan, one 4*rated double door fridge, 53" tv with moderate usage, few LED tube-lights, 2 laptops, etc.), usage is very conservative in my books:

 

[invisiblebond]

India is a blessed country with enough arable land and natural resources.
very conservative in my books:

Reliance Energy Giga-factories coming end of this year,

 

[variablevector]

India is a blessed country with enough arable land and natural resources.
If our public and leaders were few percentage less corrupt, well behaved and start thinking better, country and people would've been in great condition.
Population is an asset, only that our leaders don't know how to optimally utilize that asset for benefit of the nation and thus it's people.

Anyways, KSEB bill details (billed every 2 months) at our place (1no. 1.5ton 4*rated A/c rarely used, daily pump 750ltr+ water using 1HP(?) motor, 2-3 bldc fan, one 4*rated double door fridge, 53" tv with moderate usage, few LED tube-lights, 2 laptops, etc.), usage is very conservative in my books:

Correct me if I'm wrong but KSEB seems kind of ****ed. We crossed the 5000 MW mark in the summer of 2023 and we hit 5800 MW this summer. None of this peak power demand can be met by all the residential solar that keeps getting installed, because most of it occurs in the evening after solar power production goes to zero. The summers will continue to get hotter and AC sales will keep breaking records. Do they have a plan to meet this demand? They can't continue to import more power from the central grid, so they'll have to go back to load shedding.

This is why it doesn't make much sense to install grid-tied solar systems currently, imo. You'll still be sweating your ass off after sundown when the power is out.

 

[TEUser2K1]

Correct me if I'm wrong but KSEB seems kind of ****ed.

You are very right there, it's a typical govt. white elephant burdened by employee bureaucracy, negligence, corruption and huge drain on state by salary.

None of this peak power demand can be met by all the residential solar that keeps getting installed, because most of it occurs in the evening after solar power production goes to zero.

My understanding was that solar panels will reduce water usage from dams during day time for generating hydro-electric power. Don't know, may be it's my misunderstanding.

The summers will continue to get hotter and AC sales will keep breaking records.

Purchased a/c last year only, with a heavy mind. We didn't have to even use electric ceiling fan years back, now temperature and humidity is unbearable even after being near comparatively greener area.

Do they have a plan to meet this demand? They can't continue to import more power from the central grid, so they'll have to go back to load shedding.

They don't have any plan for anything, was looking for nuclear plant which is fine. But, nuclear power means much higher power bill which people are already finding tough.
State have lot of dams (52nos.!) which can be optimally utilized for hydro electric power generation. Another suggestion is huge tracts of unused paddy fields which can be utilized for solar power, etc. But, as with every other place, the 'powers to be' are lethargic. No sense of will power or imagination, on how to utilize abundant resources.

 

[Emperor]

India is a blessed country with enough arable land and natural resources.
If our public and leaders were few percentage less corrupt, well behaved and start thinking better, country and people would've been in great condition.
Population is an asset, only that our leaders don't know how to optimally utilize that asset for benefit of the nation and thus it's people.

Anyways, KSEB bill details (billed every 2 months) at our place (1no. 1.5ton 4*rated A/c rarely used, daily pump 750ltr+ water using 1HP(?) motor, 2-3 bldc fan, one 4*rated double door fridge, 53" tv with moderate usage, few LED tube-lights, 2 laptops, etc.), usage is very conservative in my books:

1 PC (No GPU), 3 conventional Ceiling Fan, 3 20W Led Tube (12") , one conventional 4Ft Regular Tube with Electric Chalk and 200 Liter Single Door Refrigerator.
Out of 3 only 1 Ceiling Fan works nearly 24x7/365 and in morning 7.00 AM to 6.30 PM no need for any Tube/Bulb etc.
and electricity bill is Rs.810/- for 30 Days.

PS: Is low cost BLDC fan works 24x7/365 and able to save on power bill?

 

[TEUser2K1]

PS: Is low cost BLDC fan works 24x7/365 and able to save on power bill?

Some claim bldc fans have 70% lower power usage, hence shifted all our fans to bldc.
Not using upper floor of house in general, electric switches there stays always switched off, so some utilities are not counted in my list. Same with boundary wall lights, etc. which are rarely used.

 

[adder]

PS: Is low cost BLDC fan works 24x7/365 and able to save on power bill?

It will save since most BLDC fans consume 6 to 7 watt in speed 1 ( regular fan 15 to 24 watt) and 9 to 10 watt in speed 2 ( regular fan 35watt to 40 watt) and 15 to 16 watt in speed 3 and 24 to 26 W in speed 4 and 32 to 35 watt in speed 5 and boost mode,( regular fan will be any where between 50 to 70watt).

The thing with BLDC fans is make sure the house as a high voltage cut off MCB or a inverter that cuts of power above 270V, to protect the PCB from high voltage damage.

 

[TEUser2K1]

The thing with BLDC fans is make sure the house as a high voltage cut off MCB or a inverter that cuts of power above 270V, to protect the PCB from high voltage damage.

Power surge protection is indeed important.
Visitor room BLDC fancy fan which came more costly got conked off during lightning, even after being protected with MCB, etc.
Luckily got free repair being under warranty.

 

[JMP]

There are no secrets to lowering cost of production, apart from nuclear.

There are actually. Today, solar per kW is cheaper than nuclear energy. We could significantly expand our solar generation and storage capacity. But our Govt in all its wisdom has imposed insane tariffs and non tariff barriers on solar panels and lithium cells imported from China. Solar modules per watt in India cost twice the cost in China. ALMM (Approved List of Modules & Manufacturers) DCR (domestic content requirements) laws have significantly hindered expansion of generation capacity in India in both commercial and residential spheres. Multiple barriers to importing lithium batteries have been setup - tariffs, BIS certification requirements, import export license requirements.

 

[adder]

You are very right there, it's a typical govt. white elephant burdened by employee bureaucracy, negligence, corruption and huge drain on state by salary.

I am really waiting to see what the Elon and Vivek can do in the Trump admin of cutting down 70% of the bureaucracy, Javier Mille fired lot of government employees in Argentina and they no longer have a budget deficit. There will be riots here if someone had the balls to do a similar job.

My understanding was that solar panels will reduce water usage from dams during day time for generating hydro-electric power. Don't know, may be it's my misunderstanding.

They can also use the excess solar power produced in day time to pump back the water up the dam during daytime. Then use the hydro- electric power in night.

They don't have any plan for anything, was looking for nuclear plant which is fine. But, nuclear power means much higher power bill which people are already finding tough.

The amount of Nuclear reactors India is building is probably only second only to China. But they take a long time to commission and lot of concrete needed and is very expensive.

State have lot of dams (52nos.!) which can be optimally utilized for hydro electric power generation. Another suggestion is huge tracts of unused paddy fields which can be utilized for solar power, etc. But, as with every other place, the 'powers to be' are lethargic. No sense of will power or imagination, on how to utilize abundant resources.

Solar with battery storage is the way to go, even Wind is useless in terms of the resources and land it consumes, lot of concrete required. Battery and Solar prices are at a all time low and will continue to fall.

 

[Emperor]

It will save since most BLDC fans consume 6 to 7 watt in speed 1 ( regular fan 15 to 24 watt) and 9 to 10 watt in speed 2 ( regular fan 35watt to 40 watt) and 15 to 16 watt in speed 3 and 24 to 26 W in speed 4 and 32 to 35 watt in speed 5 and boost mode,( regular fan will be any where between 50 to 70watt).

is BLDC Fan at Speed 5 provides same level of Air flow/throw as Regular Ceiling Fan?

The thing with BLDC fans is make sure the house as a high voltage cut off MCB or a inverter that cuts of power above 270V, to protect the PCB from high voltage damage.

The BLDC fan most probably will use at place where high voltage/low voltage/power cut is going on day to day and on regular basis.

Power surge protection is indeed important.
Visitor room BLDC fancy fan which came more costly got conked off during lightning, even after being protected with MCB, etc.
Luckily got free repair being under warranty.

you have all things (inverter, power surge protection and MCB too) still BLDC fan conked off? how come? it means it may need more protection?

@6pack any input by you on BLDC Fan (installation & protection), as your place too have all sort of Electricity Issue and you have BLDC Ceiling fan right?

 

[adder]

There are actually. Today, solar per kW is cheaper than nuclear energy. We could significantly expand our solar generation and storage capacity. But our Govt in all its wisdom has imposed insane tariffs and non tariff barriers on solar panels and lithium cells imported from China. Solar modules per watt in India cost twice as much in China. ALMM (Approved List of Modules & Manufacturers) DCR (domestic content requirements) laws have significantly hindered expansion of generation capacity in India in both commerical and residential spehers. Multiple barriers to importing lithium batteries have been setup - tariffs, BIS certification requirements, import export license requirements.

Even DCR panels the current price is matching the price during 2020 when the price was the lowest before anti dumping tarrifs. After covid the price of panels both imported and made in India shot up to 2016 levels. Its now back to low price, obviously Chinese prices will be cheaper.

A through research paper on Indian solar competitiveness vs Chinese solar concluded that Made in India panels aka Modules with Made in India solar cells will still cost 10% to 20% more than chinese panels. They cite the lower capital cost in China and cheaper power for Chinese advantage, while India only advantage is even cheaper labor cost. They suggest the India panel makers to start producing power to power their own plants to get the price difference to less than 10%.

This year lot of new plants with Top Con are coming up in India including cell level production, while Reliance is going for the more expensive but technologically better HJt panels. So expect price to further fall in relation to the current price and gap will narrow down to china, the thing is China is investing even more, so they will always maintain the price edge. But India currently is second best.

 

[NikhilSingh25]

These are the electricity charges in Punjab, My bill was 7620Rs in July for june+july, and 8400 last month for aug+sep . Unit used were 1306 in July so about 5.83Rs per unit. Which is decent on it's own. But the better thing is if your consumption is below 600Units for 60 days you don't have to pay anything. So I get about 4 months of electricity for free in winters since the AC are not being used.

 

[TEUser2K1]

you have all things (inverter, power surge protection and MCB too) still BLDC fan conked off? how come? it means it may need more protection?

Service person told it's actually the sensor which detect remote control signals of the fan control which got damaged.
General electro-mechanical side of the bldc fan was fine, so was quick to fix.
I've another heavy Usha bdlc fan which only works in it's full speed. Couldn't get it fixed locally...